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Topic: [XMR] Monero - A secure, private, untraceable cryptocurrency - page 1411. (Read 4670622 times)

legendary
Activity: 3836
Merit: 4969
Doomed to see the future and unable to prevent it
maybe the trolls are testing if xmr is bcx proof, testing if the devs are very good, testing the community, and getting the price low before investing a lot of money aka MEGA PUMP  Grin

Troll agenda is obvious. Unfortunately for them this community is above the curve. Wink

I need some good predictions for the floor to get back in. What do you guys think?
legendary
Activity: 3416
Merit: 1059
maybe the trolls are testing if xmr is bcx proof, testing if the devs are very good, testing the community, and getting the price low before investing a lot of money aka MEGA PUMP  Grin
legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
Cross posting excellent suggestion how to solo mine directly to the developer donation address to both help secure the network and support the project financially.

Please do this!

Now that we are approaching the First Day of Fall 2014 (The Autumnal Equinox) in the Northern Hemisphere (September 23 at 02:59 UTC) http://www.almanac.com/content/first-day-fall-autumnal-equinox here is a suggestion to help the Monero project while helping to stay warm this fall and winter.

After starting bitmonerod (bitmonerod.exe for Windows users) enter:

Code:
start_mining 46BeWrHpwXmHDpDEUmZBWZfoQpdc6HaERCNmx1pEYL2rAcuwufPN9rXHHtyUA4QVy66qeFQkn6sfK8aHYjA3jk3o1Bv16em 3

So what does this do. In addition to providing some warmth during the fall and winter, it adds some extra mining hashpower to help secure the Monero network, every little amount helps, while sending any found XMR to the development fund as a donation. Let us spread some warmth during this fall and winter.

Technical note: The number 3 refers to the number of mining threads. I set mine to one less than the number of virtual processors in my CPU (4 for an Intel i5). To learn more about mining Monero please visit https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/xmr-monero-mining-653467.
legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
For anyone who would like to help support network over next few days

Or longer!
legendary
Activity: 3136
Merit: 1116
For anyone who would like to help support network over next few days, or is just interested/curious, I put together detailed instructions on how to do cpu+gpu mining on AWS. Posted on the Monero mining thread here:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.8919354

Thanks to oda.krell for giving me some impetus to write it up Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1750
Merit: 1036
Facts are more efficient than fud
Sorry folks, monero is done for, recovery from this will be an exercise in futility.  I was in and out awhile back, glad I didn't dive back in.  Bail now.

Thank you for the discounted XMR,  Grin
legendary
Activity: 3836
Merit: 4969
Doomed to see the future and unable to prevent it
Sorry folks, monero is done for, recovery from this will be an exercise in futility.  I was in and out awhile back, glad I didn't dive back in.  Bail now.

I have been out for awhile now and see this as the perfect time to get back in. Just waiting for the floor. So you guys keep working hard because your making me money. Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1750
Merit: 1036
Facts are more efficient than fud
LOL, not even... Hes just acting like a crybaby... he's not bringing up any real issues.

On the other hand.....xmr...... Code is written like shit!!!

We're gonna go back to discussing how we improve the best anon coin available. Feel free to come back and gloat in a couple days if we are wrong and sportsmanship isn't your thing.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
It would be selling Monero short if we sold 10% of it for a measly 610BTC.  And it runs afoul of social contract considerations.

I obviously meant the amount of funding as a very rough peer benchmark, I obviosly did not mean selling the same number of coins for the same price as a presale for a coin that doesn't exist. That would be silly. Whether that exact amount is right for us I have no idea.

What plans does VIA have for funding beyond the 610 BTC? If they are hiring expert developers and incurring other costs that ~$300K won't last forever.

I'm asking these questions based on your view that VIA has been well managed from a funding model perspective so I am curious what they have done. None of this means we need to copy everything about it.

BTW, I disagree with the earlier comment that was made about this being a bad time to discuss things. The project must go on. If we spend 24/7 in attack-response mode that is a successful attack.

Yes, this is a good time to discuss things.  Strike while the iron is hot, pressure, diamonds, and all that.   Smiley

I can't speak to the efficacy of VIA's overall funding model.  But I do like their pre-sale algorithm.  That is worth stealing for the Monero bootstrap auction, ceteris paribus.

I didn't mean to imply you are in favor of selling 18.4MM 1.84MM (thanks smooth) XMR for 610 BTC.  It was just my way of illustrating the limits of copying another coin's approach, and the importance of finding the right balance for Monero.
legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
I'd be OK with doubling the bootstrap to a 2% presale.  Anything more would seriously test the bounds of acceptability, and give the impetus to fork too much energy.

I think the even 1% bootstrap will test the bounds of acceptability. I'm not totally against it, but I think other options should explored/exhausted before messing with the money supply.

As long as we are throwing out ideas, recognizing that the original plan (taking on maintenance and ongoing development of CN code base with donation funding) didn't work and doing a relaunch along the model of VIA is another possibility. Is that better than messing with the money supply? I'm pretty sure some would say yes, but I don't really agree.

As I said before I somewhat reject the characterization of "money supply" because I don't view current-day XMR as money, they are a speculative asset token that might someday turn into money (or become worthless, as recent events have more vividly illustrated).

Viewed as a speculative asset, X% dilution would be justified if you viewed that action as increasing the probability of success of the scenario in the previous paragraph by more than X%. Is 2% a good investment in this model? I say yes. Higher numbers may also be a good investment. At some point you get to diminishing returns. I don't know where that is, but I think >2%.

(Small math error intentional for simplicity of presentation.)
full member
Activity: 168
Merit: 100
Sorry folks, monero is done for, recovery from this will be an exercise in futility.  I was in and out awhile back, glad I didn't dive back in.  Bail now.
legendary
Activity: 1008
Merit: 1000
Making money since I was in the womb! @emc2whale
LOL, not even... Hes just acting like a crybaby... he's not bringing up any real issues.

On the other hand.....xmr...... Code is written like shit!!!
legendary
Activity: 1750
Merit: 1036
Facts are more efficient than fud
Please keep your crybabies out of the Stealthcoin thread!

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/annxst-stealth-coincom-tor-stealthtext-worlds-first-anonymous-sms-tx-681725

That thread is for winners only. Not whiny babies.

Thanks.

Hypocrite much?
legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
It would be selling Monero short if we sold 10% of it for a measly 610BTC.  And it runs afoul of social contract considerations.

I obviously meant the amount of funding as a very rough peer benchmark, and not selling the same number of coins for the same price as a presale for a coin that doesn't exist. That would be silly. Whether that exact amount is right for us I have no idea.

What plans does VIA have for funding beyond the 610 BTC? If they are hiring expert developers and incurring other costs that ~$300K won't last forever.

I'm asking these questions based on your view that VIA has been well managed from a funding model perspective so I am curious what they have done. None of this means we need to copy everything about it.

BTW, I disagree with the earlier comment that was made about this being a bad time to discuss things. The project must go on. If we spend 24/7 in attack-response mode that is a successful attack.


legendary
Activity: 3136
Merit: 1116
I'd be OK with doubling the bootstrap to a 2% presale.  Anything more would seriously test the bounds of acceptability, and give the impetus to fork too much energy.

I think the even 1% bootstrap will test the bounds of acceptability. I'm not totally against it, but I think other options should explored/exhausted before messing with the money supply.
legendary
Activity: 1008
Merit: 1000
Making money since I was in the womb! @emc2whale
Please keep your crybabies out of the Stealthcoin thread!

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/annxst-stealth-coincom-tor-stealthtext-worlds-first-anonymous-sms-tx-681725

That thread is for winners only. Not whiny babies.

Thanks.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
A 1% devtax on mined blocks (excluding tx fees) would provide devs with motivation for putting in continuing/extra effort.

I proposed a "retroactive pre-mine" in the form of a Bootstrap Block containing 1% of all XMR, which is 184,000 coins.

I'll share some of my personal thoughts. The core team has not really addressed this as a group.

DB seems a bit high if it doesn't include work already done (although some of that has been paid for out-of-pocket by the core team and should ultimately be repaid out of the dev budget).
p2pool seems low especially given ongoing development. (This is not a modification of the existing p2pool, which is largely unmaintainable, but a new solution based on some of the same concepts.)
$5K "network defense fund" might well be small if the attackers are better funded than that or multiple attacks occur, both of which are entirely plausible.
Other needs will undoubtedly appear, beyond a low level of ongoing maintenance that can be paid out of 1% of block rewards, at least at current prices.

In genreal I would suggest that if we are going to do this, that we just go ahead and make the "post-sale" bigger, provide for a larger fund that can be used on a more ongoing basis to hire expert developers and generally ensure that the project is adequately funded going forward. As a benchmark, how much funding did VIA raise? Funds that turn out not to be needed can be returned to the community in some manner tbd.

MEW is also working on a funding model based on memership fees and dev donations, so that should be factored into it. MEW is being launched Tuesday, according to the recent post, so more information should be available then.

Of course with more funds in an account intended for longer-term use there is more responsibility to ensure it isn't wasted or stolen so issues like oversight (as we previously discussed a bit) come to the fore.

Thanks for keeping going with this, and especially not being too distracted by attempts to distract us.

VIA raised 610BTC, via a presale of about 10% of total coins.

Other than emulating the mechanics of their scrupulous, very well done presale, I can't recommend going much further in that direction.

It would be selling Monero short if we sold 10% of it for a measly 610BTC.  And it runs afoul of social contract considerations.

I'd be OK with doubling the bootstrap to a 2% presale.  Anything more would seriously test the bounds of acceptability, and give the impetus to fork additional energy.

Be careful about advocating for a bigger "post-sale."  As a core dev, the knives are already out for you, and anything that may be twisted into the appearance of impropriety will be, with relish.   Tongue  Another consideration is market fatigue, IE the larger our pre-sale the lower the diminished marginal return per coin.

I may join the MEW, but at first glance do not like their 'membership fee' approach to dev funding.  It seems too centralized and cliquish for a true FOSS project, while allowing outsiders to ride free on their/our contributions.

This will be the first, and only, time I will agree with David Lapatie and take the pinko socialist position in favor of a wealth tax, albeit flat and thus fairly apportioned.   Cheesy

Let's run the numbers for a 2% bootstrap, taking your feedback into account.

The 368k XMR/$600k it provides seems sufficient to fund the following to at least alpha testing, and provide a semi-comfortable reserve going forward:

$100k - refactor codebase
$50k - security audits
$50k - integrate DB
$25k - complete I2P
$25k - Official Wallet
$25k - p2pool
$25k - bug bounties
$25k - network defense fund
$25k - trustless web wallet


Now we've got $350k of initial expenses, which would leave $250k in the war chest.

Given that a 1% Bootstrap pre-sale (with some luck and contributions from the MEW) would raise about $350k, I'm not yet convinced of the need for a larger one.

For what do you anticipate the potential $250k reserve being needed, and couldn't that be covered by the ongoing mining tax?
newbie
Activity: 50
Merit: 0
I have been mildly critical of the XMR developers in the past for their slow progress on fronts such as db, GUI, etc... But having read all of the exploit FUD thread and this thread, and reviewed the potential issues with some very talented math folks I know, I want to say that I am really positively impressed with the dev team. You guys have really handled the various attackers and FUDders with calm and reasonable approach, have done a lot of extra diligence, and prepared for how you would handle a vulnerability should one be discovered. Really appreciate all you have done and my respect for the team and their work has really increased a lot in the past few days. I think this is going to make the XMR community even stronger and the coin even more solid going forward.

I have only one suggestion for things you can do better during this crisis and that is to not repsond to obvious trolls/idiots like BobSurplus. You just give them a forum to spout their nonsense and they ignore any evidence or proof you offer anyway, so there is nothing to gain. Just let them spout off and you continue to advise the community on your progress and evaluations as they come up. Keep up the good work, we definitely appreciate it.
legendary
Activity: 2646
Merit: 2793
Shitcoin Minimalist
Talking about FUD and potential attacks here isn't going to do much good. I think iCEBREAKER is right about needing to get back to a somewhat normal state of affairs.
legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1030
Sine secretum non libertas

I expect a fork to result.


Is your response was directed to infofront only?  

It's a general comment which would apply to any substantive changes to the basic scheme of the coin.  Bad timing to even have to discuss this now, but there it is.  Game it out.  What do you expect?
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