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Topic: [XMR] Monero - A secure, private, untraceable cryptocurrency - page 1427. (Read 4671575 times)

sr. member
Activity: 462
Merit: 250
Moneropool.com:

Network
 Hash Rate: 20.64 MH/sec
Our Pool
 Hash Rate: 9.04 MH/sec

35% not observed?

The hash rate is very concentrated.

Dwarf pool: 5.28 MH/s,
crypto-pool.fr: 3.5 MH/s.

So for those three total: 17.7MH/s, or 85% of total.

If those 3 were taken out, XMR is in trouble.

Good observation. Please move your hash rate off these pools if you are using one of them. See OP for a list of other pools, especially ones that donate to development.

Any pool that pays out at least a few blocks per day is big enough to produce reasonably low variance.

If you are running a wallet/node consider turning on solo mining (start_mining command in either daemon or wallet). Every little bit helps.

I wonder if there is a detailed instruction to set up own pool using Windows.
legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
Moneropool.com:

Network
 Hash Rate: 20.64 MH/sec
Our Pool
 Hash Rate: 9.04 MH/sec

35% not observed?

The hash rate is very concentrated.

Dwarf pool: 5.28 MH/s,
crypto-pool.fr: 3.5 MH/s.

So for those three total: 17.7MH/s, or 85% of total.

If those 3 were taken out, XMR is in trouble.

Good observation. Please move your hash rate off these pools if you are using one of them. See OP for a list of other pools, especially ones that donate to development.

Any pool that pays out at least a few blocks per day is big enough to produce reasonably low variance.

If you are running a wallet/node consider turning on solo mining (start_mining command in either daemon or wallet). Every little bit helps.


sr. member
Activity: 462
Merit: 250
btc is going down because it can not longer be used to buy in the markets of tor
All purchases of bitcoin are tracked by the FBI
then they can not use them on the markets
are caught immediately
so you have to do a bit of advertising on XMR
in these markets
buy bitcoins and exchange them for XMR
and then use them to do what you want
if XMR does not do so
will do it some other CN currency
they will
before XMR
and lose the boat
if we do this will stabilize the price of btc
and at the same time, XMR could rise to levels that we can not imagine
you have to convince the markets on tor
to use XMR
this is the best thing for Monero

Good thought. If you buy XMR with BTC and use XMR instead, then BTC price will fall, but not much as XMR market cap is not big.
legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
I was wrong, now I'm beginning to understand. :-) Thank you for your patience and responses. Monero looks fine.

I cannot find out where is the check  SUM of inputs == SUM outputs + transaction fee. 

There is no tx_fee stored in the transaction. tx_fee is computed as =(sum of inputs) - (sum of ouputs). If you are looking for that in the code and can't find it let me know and I'll point it out for you.

sr. member
Activity: 462
Merit: 250
Moneropool.com:

Network
 Hash Rate: 20.64 MH/sec
Our Pool
 Hash Rate: 9.04 MH/sec

35% not observed?

The hash rate is very concentrated.

Dwarf pool: 5.28 MH/s,
crypto-pool.fr: 3.5 MH/s.

So for those three total: 17.7MH/s, or 85% of total.

If those 3 were taken out, XMR is in trouble.
legendary
Activity: 1750
Merit: 1036
Facts are more efficient than fud
Price of XMR going down, it makes me cold.  The leaves of autumn turn dreary and my spirit sinks.  The winter of my discontent comes the morrow.

Until this whole "exploit" fiasco is sorted out, XMR (and likely other CN coins) are headed towards ground zero.

Price may be falling as well due to Bitcoin falling.

Just checked--only 2.44% lower on BTC scale. Much buy  Grin
member
Activity: 109
Merit: 10
btc is going down because it can not longer be used to buy in the markets of tor
All purchases of bitcoin are tracked by the FBI
then they can not use them on the markets
are caught immediately
so you have to do a bit of advertising on XMR
in these markets
buy bitcoins and exchange them for XMR
and then use them to do what you want
if XMR does not do so
will do it some other CN currency
they will
before XMR
and lose the boat
if we do this will stabilize the price of btc
and at the same time, XMR could rise to levels that we can not imagine
you have to convince the markets on tor
to use XMR
this is the best thing for Monero
donator
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1036
Might be good for someone to compare XMR price development over the two days to other altcoins. Might well be that the effect of FUD is not even existent...
member
Activity: 94
Merit: 10
Price of XMR going down, it makes me cold.  The leaves of autumn turn dreary and my spirit sinks.  The winter of my discontent comes the morrow.

Until this whole "exploit" fiasco is sorted out, XMR (and likely other CN coins) are headed towards ground zero.

Price may be falling as well due to Bitcoin falling.
legendary
Activity: 1624
Merit: 1008

On topic:

I am still hesitant about the postmine, but if other methods like the crowdfunding do not work and it has to be done, then I propose we simply move emission from *before* the tail starts to the present.

Say a bootstrap block with reward X to the devfund is generated "soon". Then if X represents y% of the "total" 18.6M emission, it can be covered slowly by reducing mining reward by >y% until the deficit is covered. Thus the net effect would be that the core devs make a "loan" of X from "nowhere" at 0% interest, and then repay it back by burning part of future emission. This would make the bootstrap a contained problem, since it is a localized, surgical change in the emission schedule. To the first order, any injustice will only last until the devfund would have "repaid" the "loan".

But smooth, both for the crowdfunding attempt and as justification for the "loan", that spreadsheet needs to be done and it nobody but the core team that can do it.

For the bootstrap I was thinking along the same lines.  I was using 18.4M total emissions and the suggestion of 1% or 184k for X.  3.5M has been mined so for the 14.9M  remaining the block reward would need to be reduced, I assume this is what you meant by burning, by ~1.23%.  If burning till the end is too long for the "injustice" the % would need to be increased.  For 4 years from the genesis block I get 1.47% and for 3 years I get 1.67% for 16M and 14.5M mined respectively.  In one month from now it goes up to 1.28%, 1.53% and 1.75% respectively due to an additional ~1/2M more coins that will have been mined.  I don't do math but hopefully I got the arithmetic correct.

The idea of 1% for the devs going forward has been suggested in addition which is getting a bit steep. 

I am not suggesting anything but just putting some numbers out for perspective.  As David said we don't have to do just one thing but IMO it needs to be done soon.  I am using the original definition of soon.
legendary
Activity: 1750
Merit: 1036
Facts are more efficient than fud
Price of XMR going down, it makes me cold.  The leaves of autumn turn dreary and my spirit sinks.  The winter of my discontent comes the morrow.

But what I bury in fall rises in spring
so get a shovel and we'll sing
to girls and dancin' and champagne
never found on Monero's blockchain


 
jr. member
Activity: 51
Merit: 10
Moneropool.com:

Network
 Hash Rate: 20.64 MH/sec
Our Pool
 Hash Rate: 9.04 MH/sec

35% not observed?
legendary
Activity: 1414
Merit: 1000
I was wrong, now I'm beginning to understand. :-) Thank you for your patience and responses. Monero looks fine.

I cannot find out where is the check  SUM of inputs == SUM outputs + transaction fee. 
Can you help me ?
sr. member
Activity: 263
Merit: 250
Edit: Initial reward/cube root(height) gives a reward of 0.0968 XMR at block 6,000,000.  That seems about right, and provides 139 XMR/day for miners.  Somebody else will have to math the limit on the sequence, I've been up too long.

Good formula but still too much, if XMR is at ~1000usd at block 6mm thats ~140k fresh usd that new to flow daily.

What would the "~1000usd at block 6mm" market cap be?  I'm guessing it is high enough to justify/demand at least $140k/day worth of network security.

If we use inital reward/square root(height), the reward at 6MM falls to 0.00718 XMR/block, or 10.34 XMR/day.  Better?  $10k/day to secure a multi-billion dollar network seems far too low.  Of course tx fees also have to be guestimated and included...

We have our pick of many fancy numbers between 2 and 3 for fine tuning our eternal reward with irrational or transcendental flair.   Grin

(some examples)

I'll start the voting by saying I have no preference and expect tx fees to dominate by block 6MM if the coin is a success.   Undecided

1. This discussion of what the reward will be at block 6M is completely inconsequential and simply spams the thread and the funding conversation. Nekomata simply provided an example, and your examples for the exponent prove that there is no practical difference between them given the orders-of-magnitude error bars on all the rest of the data.

2. All reward profiles that decay slower than ~ height^(-2) will lead to an infinite total emission, contrary to your earlier assertion that it needs to be finite. You propose decay between ~ height^(-1/3) and ~ height^(-1/2) which clearly generate nonconverging partial sums. So you contradict yourself.

3. I disagree with changing the overall shape of the emission schedule. There are good reasons to keep an exponential schedule and changing the base of the exponential leads to either (a) accusations of greediness among early adopters for increasing the base or (b) resentment from some early adopters for "halving their coins".

4. Exception to (3) for tail emission. Now the tail, no matter how it is chosen, must not result in increasing inflation, so inflation after the tail takes effect must be lower than inflation when the tail takes effect. Thus, it is not justified to change the emission schedule before inflation reaches that upper-bound (be it 1% or any other, as would be decided).

5. Even a simple schedule like "keep current until 1%, then keep 1%" leads to some possibly unintended consequences, like a nonmonotonic block reward (decreasing until tail starts, increasing afterwards). So making these decisions is not a simple task and should not be trivialized with arbitrary choices of irrational or transcendental values for the lulz.

6. The whole point of a different tail emission is (like smooth mentioned just a few posts earlier) that miners do not depend on transaction fees. Taking this to the logical conclusion, we should assume zero transaction fees for the purpose of the tail. Furthermore, the other purpose of transactions fees if not miner reward is spam prevention. This can possibly be deflected with proof-of-work "fee" and monetary transaction fees eliminated. You keep repeating that miners should be rewarded from the fees; this is precisely what we're trying to prevent with this discussion.

All these and some of your earlier comments like the inclusion of rpietila or CZ in the group that decides how the devfund is spent (7) suggest you either are trolling or have ulterior motives.

7. There is no reason or moral ground for a representative of the large holders or a competing crypto-currency to have this kind of decision power on the devfund. If CZ joins the Monero core devs, he would be entitled to that position. Similarly, rpietila will already represent the large holders to some degree through the Workshop. Once the Workshop dispenses half of the vote cost to the devfund, the Workshop should have no decision power on those funds.

I'm calling you out.

On topic:

I am still hesitant about the postmine, but if other methods like the crowdfunding do not work and it has to be done, then I propose we simply move emission from *before* the tail starts to the present.

Say a bootstrap block with reward X to the devfund is generated "soon". Then if X represents y% of the "total" 18.6M emission, it can be covered slowly by reducing mining reward by >y% until the deficit is covered. Thus the net effect would be that the core devs make a "loan" of X from "nowhere" at 0% interest, and then repay it back by burning part of future emission. This would make the bootstrap a contained problem, since it is a localized, surgical change in the emission schedule. To the first order, any injustice will only last until the devfund would have "repaid" the "loan".

But smooth, both for the crowdfunding attempt and as justification for the "loan", that spreadsheet needs to be done and it nobody but the core team that can do it.
sr. member
Activity: 378
Merit: 250
Price of XMR going down, it makes me cold.  The leaves of autumn turn dreary and my spirit sinks.  The winter of my discontent comes the morrow.

Until this whole "exploit" fiasco is sorted out, XMR (and likely other CN coins) are headed towards ground zero.
legendary
Activity: 2296
Merit: 1031
Price of XMR going down, it makes me cold.  The leaves of autumn turn dreary and my spirit sinks.  The winter of my discontent comes the morrow.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
Edit: Initial reward/cube root(height) gives a reward of 0.0968 XMR at block 6,000,000.  That seems about right, and provides 139 XMR/day for miners.  Somebody else will have to math the limit on the sequence, I've been up too long.

Good formula but still too much, if XMR is at ~1000usd at block 6mm thats ~140k fresh usd that new to flow daily.

What would the "~1000usd at block 6mm" market cap be?  I'm guessing it is high enough to justify/demand at least $140k/day worth of network security.

If we use inital reward/square root(height), the reward at 6MM falls to 0.00718 XMR/block, or 10.34 XMR/day.  Better?  $10k/day to secure a multi-billion dollar network seems far too low.  Of course tx fees also have to be guestimated and included...

We have our pick of many fancy numbers between 2 and 3 for fine tuning our eternal reward with irrational or transcendental flair.   Grin

e  = 2.718 --> 0.0563 XMR/block6MM; 81.11 XMR/day

phi+1 = 2.618  --> 0.0452  XMR/block6MM; 65.14 XMR/day

6^1/2 = 2.449 --> 0.003  XMR/block6MM; 43.22 XMR/day

Adam's Question = Huh --> 0.02916 XMR/block6MM; 42 XMR/day

5^1/2 = 2.236 --> 0.0163  XMR/block6MM; 23.529 XMR/day

pi-1 = 2.1415 --> 0.012  XMR/block6MM; 17.29 XMR/day

I'll start the voting by saying I have no preference and expect tx fees to dominate by block 6MM if the coin is a success.   Undecided
legendary
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1217
decentralized can mean different things in different contexts. monero is decentralized in the sense that it uses a decentralized proof of work mechanism to generate network consensus and provide byzantine fault tolerance. but yes in other ways it certainly is less decentralized than it could be.

Thank you for your thoughtful comments.


you as well Smiley
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
Did I miss the discussion about the cost/difficulty of exposing multisig?  I see it's already in Cryptonote...

I don't think we have come up with a concrete estimate. We reviewed the implementation from Cryptonote and found it to be of generally poor quality and largely unsuitable to use. Further, carefully vetting it (since they can't be trusted) would likely be too expensive to be practical.

It also has the limitation of not working with ring sigs. I'm not sure that is a show stopper, and it is allegedly fixable, but no one has written down a full design for doing so (that we have seen). Even in our own implementation, we'd have to decide whether to take that on or not, since doing multisig without ring sigs is rather more obvious and well defined.

Quote
Let's add multisig, trustless Blockchain type web wallet, and p2pool to our Wish List of items for the final platform to be funded by the Bootstrap.

Agreed.

Ah good, we can count multisig as part of the overall CN refactor and not an additional task.

The Bootstrap Block presale will go much better if we provide details on exactly what the funds raised will be used for, so this is all very helpful.

We don't need to worry about making multisig compatible with rings for a while.  For dev fund purposes, mixin 0 is fine/required.  Once the Bootstrap frenzy is over, the Monero Research Lab can start work on more difficult longer term projects like ring multisig, pruning, and other forms of polishing to perfection, while funded by the ongoing miner devtax and any leftover Bootstrap funds.
legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
decentralized can mean different things in different contexts. monero is decentralized in the sense that it uses a decentralized proof of work mechanism to generate network consensus and provide byzantine fault tolerance. but yes in other ways it certainly is less decentralized than it could be.

Remember, I said you are relying on developers for critical fixes. Which means on occasion (such as two weeks ago), this sort-of-decentralized system won't be able to use PoW to provide BFT (or to perform some other essential function) on its own without help from the developers.

Small point of disagreement though, and we generally agree on much of everthing.

Thank you for your thoughtful comments.
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