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Topic: [XMR] Monero - A secure, private, untraceable cryptocurrency - page 1609. (Read 4670972 times)

newbie
Activity: 28
Merit: 0

1. July 18th: at the price of 0.004976 at 10:33:41.045 by an anonymous person
2. July 19th: at the price of 0.004888 at 21:44:09.451 by equipoise here on Bitcointalk.org. He also shared a link to his personal page.

congrats guys! I'm cosidering marrying you, rich people!  Grin
dga
hero member
Activity: 737
Merit: 511
The L3 cache by itself is almost half of the chip.

I looked at an image of the Haswell die and appears to be less than 20%. The APU (GPU) is taking up more space on the consumer models. On the server models there is no GPU and the cache is probably a higher percentage of the die.

There is also a 64 bit multiply, which is I'm told is non-trivial. Once you combine that with your observation about Intel having a (likely persistent) process advantage (and also the inherent average unit cost advantage of a widely-used general purpose device), there just isn't much if anything left for an ASIC-maker to to work with.

So no I don't think the point is really valid. You won't be able to get thousands of times anything with a straightforward ASIC design here. There may be back doors though, we don't know. The point about lack of a clear writeup and peer review is valid.

Quote
The CPU has an inherent disadvantage in that it is designed to be a general purpose computing device so it can't be as specialized at any one computation as an ASIC can be.

This is obviously going to be true, but the scope of the task here is very different. Thousands of copies will not work.

I believe that is wrong. I suspect an ASIC can be designed that vastly outperform (at least on a power efficiency basis) and one of the reasons is the algorithm is so complex, thus it probably has many ways to be optimized with specific circuitry instead of generalized circuitry. My point is isolating a simpler ("enveloped") instruction such as aesinc would be a superior strategy (and embrace USB pluggable ASICs and get them spread out to the consumer).

Also I had noted (find my post in my thread a couple of months ago) that the way the AES is incorrectly employed as a random oracle (as the index to lookup in the memory table), the algorithm is very likely subject to some reduced solution space. This is perhaps Claymore's advantage (I could probably figure it out if I was inclined to spend sufficient time on it).

There is no cryptographic analysis of the hash. It might have impossible images, collisions, etc..

I strongly disagree.

The algorithm is *not* complex, it's very simple.  Grab a random-indexed 128 bit value from the big lookup table.  Mix it using a single round of AES.  Store part of the result back.  Use that to index the next item.  Mix that with a 64 bit multiply.  Store back.  Repeat.  It's intellectually very close to scrypt, with a few tweaks to take advantage of things that are fast on modern CPUs.

Claymore has no fundamental advantage beyond lots of memory bandwidth and compute.  His results are actually slightly slower than what is achievable on a GPU with no algorithmic magic -- compare Claymore's speeds to tsiv's for nvidia and extrapolate another 10%-20% due to slightly better code.

Remember that there are two ways to implement the CryptoNight algorithm:
  (1) Try to fit a few copies in cache and pound the hell out of them;
  (2) Fit a lot of copies in DRAM and use a lot of bandwidth.

Approach (1) is what's being done on CPUs.  Approach (2) is what's being done on GPUs.  I tried implementing #2 on CPU and couldn't get it to perform as well as my back-of-the-envelope analysis suggests it should, but it's possible it could outperform the current CPU implementations by about 20%.  (I believe yvg1900 tried something similar and came to the same conclusion I did).  An ASIC approach might well be better off with #2, however, but it simply moves the bottleneck to the memory controller, and it's a hard engineering job compared to building an AES unit, a 64 bit multiplier, and 2MB of DRAM.  But that 2MB of DRAM area limits you in a big way.

In my best professional opinion, barring funky weaknesses lingering within the single round of AES, CryptoNight is a very solid PoW.  Its only real disadvantage is comparatively slow verification time, which really hurts the time to download and verify the blockchain.
dga
hero member
Activity: 737
Merit: 511
There is much more that has to be investigated and I can find nearly nothing on Monero's proof-of-work hash. No benchmarking. No detailed whitepaper. Nothing but the source code.

We have the same issue with the CryptoNight PoW algorithm. To quote the initial CryptoNote whitepaper review we've released:

Quote
It's absolutely unconscionable to to come up with a new "Proof of Work Algorithm" and then refrain from including any sort of pseudocode to describe that algorithm. Upon which. Your entire. Coin. Is. Based. Ugh.

I've posted an informal summary of my analysis of the CryptoNight algorithm earlier in this thread with respect to GPU balance and its likely eventual balance with ASICs.

It's good.

I concur with you about the lameness of the ByteCoin release, of course, but it's obvious why they did it -- they took a simple and elegant proof of work function that was clearly designed by someone with a clue, and they wrapped it in a complex load of poop to slow it down artificially.  Most likely, they then used that to fake two years of the blockchain, but it's impossible to prove that, so that's purely my speculation.
legendary
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1217
the emission halves every 512 days?

This is a continuous process, not suddenly halved (like bitcoin). The continuous decrease is such that after 512 days the reward is half of original one.

i always wondered why satoshi designed bitcoin to drop off these gigantic cliffs every few years.
jr. member
Activity: 54
Merit: 257
New exchange: lazycoins.com

Disclaimer: please take note that referencing it do not imply we endorse it. Trade at your own risk.

Updated by David Latapie
r05
full member
Activity: 193
Merit: 100
test cryptocoin please ignore
Quite interested in having a purely OpenCL miner. I know Claymore is OpenCL, but it only works with AMD GPUs. The Intel HD series of GPUs are very poor I know, but they too utilize OpenCL - for those of us that are hoping to squeeze every little last bit from our systems using the onboard GPU would be very advantageous.
So you mean that I can use both AMD GPU and Intel HD graphics for mining on one computer?
And your CPU, yes. They are separate devices with separate resource pools, despite the Intel HD GPU being on the same unit as the CPU. I have read up on it and other coin algos have miners for the Intel HD series and the use of it doesn't impact the CPU mining speed.

Miner for Intel HD? Rough estimate on h/s on 4000/5000?


on scrypt, gpu mined slower than cpu.
but probably using less power.
Can confirm pretty much the same metrics. It's slower than CPU but can be used at the same time.

Seems a bit silly to be having idle processing power  Wink
legendary
Activity: 2716
Merit: 1094
Black Belt Developer
Quite interested in having a purely OpenCL miner. I know Claymore is OpenCL, but it only works with AMD GPUs. The Intel HD series of GPUs are very poor I know, but they too utilize OpenCL - for those of us that are hoping to squeeze every little last bit from our systems using the onboard GPU would be very advantageous.
So you mean that I can use both AMD GPU and Intel HD graphics for mining on one computer?
And your CPU, yes. They are separate devices with separate resource pools, despite the Intel HD GPU being on the same unit as the CPU. I have read up on it and other coin algos have miners for the Intel HD series and the use of it doesn't impact the CPU mining speed.

Miner for Intel HD? Rough estimate on h/s on 4000/5000?


on scrypt, gpu mined slower than cpu.
but probably using less power.
sr. member
Activity: 525
Merit: 250
Hello once again, people!

As we’ve announced yesterday, the 100 XMR rewards for taking part in our most recent contest were sent out to their respective winners.

Here are the winning deals:
1. July 18th: at the price of 0.004976 at 10:33:41.045 by an anonymous person
2. July 19th: at the price of 0.004888 at 21:44:09.451 by equipoise here on Bitcointalk.org. He also shared a link to his personal page.
Thanks once again for your partaking and for your intense interest in the coin’s performance on our exchange, and congrats!
Please let us know if this was exciting and if you want to see us continue running such contests, and we shall keep doing that.
Read the full text of this announcement

r05
full member
Activity: 193
Merit: 100
test cryptocoin please ignore
Quite interested in having a purely OpenCL miner. I know Claymore is OpenCL, but it only works with AMD GPUs. The Intel HD series of GPUs are very poor I know, but they too utilize OpenCL - for those of us that are hoping to squeeze every little last bit from our systems using the onboard GPU would be very advantageous.
So you mean that I can use both AMD GPU and Intel HD graphics for mining on one computer?
And your CPU, yes. They are separate devices with separate resource pools, despite the Intel HD GPU being on the same unit as the CPU. I have read up on it and other coin algos have miners for the Intel HD series and the use of it doesn't impact the CPU mining speed.
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
Quite interested in having a purely OpenCL miner. I know Claymore is OpenCL, but it only works with AMD GPUs. The Intel HD series of GPUs are very poor I know, but they too utilize OpenCL - for those of us that are hoping to squeeze every little last bit from our systems using the onboard GPU would be very advantageous.
So you mean that I can use both AMD GPU and Intel HD graphics for mining on one computer?
r05
full member
Activity: 193
Merit: 100
test cryptocoin please ignore
Quite interested in having a purely OpenCL miner. I know Claymore is OpenCL, but it only works with AMD GPUs. The Intel HD series of GPUs are very poor I know, but they too utilize OpenCL - for those of us that are hoping to squeeze every little last bit from our systems using the onboard GPU would be very advantageous.
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1012
Still wild and free
the emission halves every 512 days?

This is a continuous process, not suddenly halved (like bitcoin). The continuous decrease is such that after 512 days the reward is half of original one.
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 500
the emission halves every 512 days?
hero member
Activity: 565
Merit: 500
I edited my prior post. I think the complexity is working against you, not for you as you assume. Defer to your cryptographers. You've got to characterize it before you can make any such qualitative assumptions with certitude.

I assume nothing. ASICs may rip this to shreds. I merely state that it isn't inevitable.

We don't know how much cryptographic analysis there was, since it was all done in secret by whoever designed it (also secret). Maybe there was a lot, maybe none at all, or maybe something in between.

Re: cryptographers, yes, we are paying cryptographers to review it, as has been stated on this thread before. We are conducting a top-to-bottom review of everything. Cryptography is important, of course, but there are plenty of opportunities for other problems throughout the code as well. And this was indeed the case with the deoptimized mining code we discovered when we first started looking at the code we inherited, but certainly the scope of this effort is not now limited to (or even focused on) mining.



The number of coins produced a day will still be the same 23K+- 10% .

As mentioned by Aminorex "Block reward was 17.6 initially (97 days ago) and is now 15.4.  It takes 512 days to halve the emission. "

As long as Demand-Supply is there , even Asics wont hurt the coin.
legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
I edited my prior post. I think the complexity is working against you, not for you as you assume. Defer to your cryptographers. You've got to characterize it before you can make any such qualitative assumptions with certitude.

I assume nothing. ASICs may rip this to shreds. I merely state that it isn't inevitable.

We don't know how much cryptographic analysis there was, since it was all done in secret by whoever designed it (also secret). Maybe there was a lot, maybe none at all, or maybe something in between.

Re: cryptographers, yes, we are paying cryptographers to review it, as has been stated on this thread before. We are conducting a top-to-bottom review of everything. Cryptography is important, of course, but there are plenty of opportunities for other problems throughout the code as well. And this was indeed the case with the deoptimized mining code we discovered when we first started looking at the code we inherited, but certainly the scope of this effort is not now limited to (or even focused on) mining.



hero member
Activity: 649
Merit: 500
Sure it does. It's 6 months experience for free Tongue Thanks.

Also, how can I help getting monero on track? I'm planning on donating to the dev team when I get some spare money, and the Portuguese mnemonic word list is already under way so I don't know what else I can do...

At the moment most of the urgent / important tasks require an in-depth knowledge of cryptography and C / C++, but as things progress there will be things that will come up that will require more soft skills. As and when we have a need for that we will definitely put the call out:)
If this is not something you can apply for, you can spread the word around about Monero as being a serious coin. Target newcomers in alt first - so much pump and dumps where newcomers get scammed.

I know what you mean.

Will do that. Instead of them getting scared off they could be supporting Monero.
 
Must find out if there is a crypto community here in Portugal.

hasta!
Monero to 2100!
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
I make no claim about more qualitative design improvements, cryptographic flaws (though in some cases these might translate to CPU/GPU mining improvements as well as ASIC), etc.. I was simply addressing the "thousands of copies" comment. That approach is not feasible.

We can't make the latter assertion with certitude without knowing the former, because it is possible some insights reduce the size of the memory space required. Such insight could possibly require very fast circuit for some particular computation that could only be done on an ASIC.

Those are thousands of copies of something, but not thousands of copies of the original algorithm. The latter is straightforward and reasonable to assume as essentially inevitable for any algorithm that is implementable in a small amount of hardware (as the original post to which I replied suggested was the case here, incorrectly). The former is not.

I edited my prior post. I think the complexity is working against you, not for you as you assume. Defer to your cryptographers. You've got to characterize it before you can make any such qualitative assumptions with certitude.

And such insights could possibly be proprietary (for a while at least) could potentially be a major problem in the future. I assume you will have cryptographers doing cryptanalysis on the proof-of-work soon to head off such a threat.

The worst thing that can happen is a few have a significant advantage. If that degenerate case is the true risk (we can't say since we don't know), much better to have ubiquitous cheap ASICs.
legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
I make no claim about more qualitative design improvements, cryptographic flaws (though in some cases these might translate to CPU/GPU mining improvements as well as ASIC), etc.. I was simply addressing the "thousands of copies" comment. That approach is not feasible.

We can't make the latter assertion with certitude without knowing the former, because it is possible some insights reduce the size of the memory space required. Such insight could possibly require very fast circuit for some particular computation that could only be done on an ASIC.

Those are thousands of copies of something, but not thousands of copies of the original algorithm. The latter is straightforward and reasonable to assume as essentially inevitable for any algorithm that is implementable in a small amount of hardware (as the original post to which I replied suggested was the case here, incorrectly). The former is not.

newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
Finally, I spent enough time trying to understand how to use XMR. My level is too low.
BTW I think it is enough to start trading.

I decided to make an arbitrage. To buy XMR on the Poloniex exchange and to sell it on the Hitbtc exchange.
There is a nice difference between XMR prices on this exchanges. So if you did not try it before - do it. You can earn additional money. Check rates by yourself and make your own conclusions.
After I'll test it with XMR - I'll write here some additional information. If you id it before - write what you think.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
I make no claim about more qualitative design improvements, cryptographic flaws (though in some cases these might translate to CPU/GPU mining improvements as well as ASIC), etc.. I was simply addressing the "thousands of copies" comment. That approach is not feasible.

We can't make the latter assertion with certitude without knowing the former, because it is possible some insights reduce the size of the memory space required. Such insight could possibly require very fast circuit for some particular computation that could only be done on an ASIC.

And such insights could possibly be proprietary (for a while at least) could potentially be a major problem in the future. I assume you will have cryptographers doing cryptanalysis on the proof-of-work soon to head off such a threat.
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