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Topic: [XMR] Monero - A secure, private, untraceable cryptocurrency - page 746. (Read 4670673 times)

legendary
Activity: 1105
Merit: 1000
Quote
I would say closer to ZeroCash. I've heard from the relevant experts that Monero is not computationally-efficient enough to stand on its own, but I have similar problems with ZeroCash standing on its own (it is almost "too private", for people to check and make sure it's working correctly). However, I think both (and/or, the concept of "coin privacy") will be among the first practical, usable, sidechain applications. I think that people will sidechain coins over, mix them on the sidechain, and then send them back.

What are they implying by "not computationally-efficient enough to stand on its own"?

I'm honestly not sure.

There are criticisms about the chain being larger than Bitcoin. That's one thing, maybe an issue in practice, maybe not, but not really the same question as "computationally efficient".

There have also been criticisms of the PoW being too slow. This was a bigger concern before it got optimized and verifying a PoW took a second or something. But now at 20 ms, I don't really see this as disastrous. Even if it is, it could easily be replaced, and doesn't constitute a scaling issue (PoW cost doesn't go up as usage increases, in fact it decreases per-tx).

I'm not really sure where a criticism of the protocol itself being too computationally inefficient would come from. The signature verification is based on DJB's elliptic curve methods that are designed to be very efficient. We can verify something like 1400 signatures/sec on CPUs that are a couple of generations out of date. And that isn't even fully optimized.

So who knows. Sometimes memes based on a tiny bit of information, possibly taken out of context or misinterpreted, just get out there and take on a life of their own, making them very hard to ever fully kill off.

I assume you meant transactions instead of signatures.

For example this recent tx "06246f5c78aefac38b6c539ffc2ead5d48d452a38dbffe019cb63668aba657ed" has 15 inputs at mix 1, or 30 signatures. It took 3ms to verify on my machine (i7-4770). That would imply 10k sigs verified per second (not sure if this is multithreaded or not, and I'm not sure how much overhead there is on verifying beyond sig checking).

Actually I completely misremembered not only the number but the context of it. It was 2.5ms/tx average according to NoodleDoodle on a i7-2600. I originally thought it was single threaded which would yield 1600/sec not 1400, but now I'm not sure how that was measured since multithreaded verification was added at some point, though not sure if it is signatures or PoW. I guess signatures since most syncing PoW uses the precomputed hashes now anyway.

We could look into the code more carefully here to see how it is being done, but all of these numbers agree that "computationally efficient" doesn't make sense to raise an issue. And of course both your numbers and NoodleDoodle's numbers are aging to old midrange desktop CPUs. You would run into huge problems with storage, bandwidth, centralization, etc. long before computational cost because a bottleneck. That's true for all blockchains so I just don't understand the original statement except as a misunderstanding.

Just going from memory, I'm fairly certain the POW verification is multithreaded now, and was changed before the fast-block-sync stuff. So I don't know if tx verification is multithreaded as well, but I tend to think yes.

Edit: wallet "refresh" command I'm fairly certain is *not* multithreaded.
legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
Fourth bold - that could be interesting, though if a "refresh from block X" is ever integrated, this will be moot.

If you create a new wallet, this is already done. The issue is that there is no creation date as part of seed words, so when you restore using seed words it has to scan the entire chain, starting from the genesis block. Probably at some point in the future when seed words are improved (especially with better error detection and correction) some sort of date indicator can be added.

As for performance and efficiency (including storage space) overall, it is important to recognize that the database right now is close to the first implementation and the main goal was to get it to work (not quite the first since NoodleDoodle did optimize some of it). Further optimizations and improvements are good goals for the future.
legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
Quote
I would say closer to ZeroCash. I've heard from the relevant experts that Monero is not computationally-efficient enough to stand on its own, but I have similar problems with ZeroCash standing on its own (it is almost "too private", for people to check and make sure it's working correctly). However, I think both (and/or, the concept of "coin privacy") will be among the first practical, usable, sidechain applications. I think that people will sidechain coins over, mix them on the sidechain, and then send them back.

What are they implying by "not computationally-efficient enough to stand on its own"?

I'm honestly not sure.

There are criticisms about the chain being larger than Bitcoin. That's one thing, maybe an issue in practice, maybe not, but not really the same question as "computationally efficient".

There have also been criticisms of the PoW being too slow. This was a bigger concern before it got optimized and verifying a PoW took a second or something. But now at 20 ms, I don't really see this as disastrous. Even if it is, it could easily be replaced, and doesn't constitute a scaling issue (PoW cost doesn't go up as usage increases, in fact it decreases per-tx).

I'm not really sure where a criticism of the protocol itself being too computationally inefficient would come from. The signature verification is based on DJB's elliptic curve methods that are designed to be very efficient. We can verify something like 1400 signatures/sec on CPUs that are a couple of generations out of date. And that isn't even fully optimized.

So who knows. Sometimes memes based on a tiny bit of information, possibly taken out of context or misinterpreted, just get out there and take on a life of their own, making them very hard to ever fully kill off.

I assume you meant transactions instead of signatures.

For example this recent tx "06246f5c78aefac38b6c539ffc2ead5d48d452a38dbffe019cb63668aba657ed" has 15 inputs at mix 1, or 30 signatures. It took 3ms to verify on my machine (i7-4770). That would imply 10k sigs verified per second (not sure if this is multithreaded or not, and I'm not sure how much overhead there is on verifying beyond sig checking).

Actually I completely misremembered not only the number but the context of it. It was 2.5ms/tx average according to NoodleDoodle on a i7-2600. I originally thought it was single threaded which would yield 1600/sec not 1400, but now I'm not sure how that was measured since multithreaded verification was added at some point, though not sure if it is signatures or PoW. I guess signatures since most syncing PoW uses the precomputed hashes now anyway.

We could look into the code more carefully here to see how it is being done, but all of these numbers agree that "computationally efficient" doesn't make sense to raise an issue. And of course both your numbers and NoodleDoodle's numbers are aging to old midrange desktop CPUs. You would run into huge problems with storage, bandwidth, centralization, etc. long before computational cost because a bottleneck. That's true for all blockchains so I just don't understand the original statement except as a misunderstanding.
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1008
New version indeed consumes less memory but refreshing the wallet is much much slower. It took an eternity to sync from scratch (as recommended) and then another eternity to refresh my old wallet. Not to mention that disk space required for LMDB blockchain is much larger than previous version. I wonder how do we attract new adopters with such terrible user experience. Pointing them to hosted wallet such as MyMonero isn't the solution. Syncing blockchain and refreshing the wallet somehow should be combined in one process to reduce the pain for new users.

On the side note, it seems wallet created in Windows could not be opened in Linux. I had to recover using 25 seed words.

First bold - yeah, the refreshing of the wallet is a thorn in my side as well. I know fluffypony mentioned on IRC one time that some serious effort needs to be put into making that fast, so its on the radar. And there may or may not have been an option at some point to refresh from a certain height, so you don't have to scan the entire blockchain if you you just created your wallet yesterday.

second bold - this is an artifact of "sparse file format" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparse_file . And the argument has been made that a larger database on disk is better than a smaller database in ram.

Third bold - its the fundamentals. This coin, its developers and the community have continuously pushed for the fundamentals over user experience. I don't expect this to change anytime soon, and I'm glad.

Fourth bold - that could be interesting, though if a "refresh from block X" is ever integrated, this will be moot.

newbie
Activity: 12
Merit: 0
New version indeed consumes less memory but refreshing the wallet is much much slower. It took an eternity to sync from scratch (as recommended) and then another eternity to refresh my old wallet. Not to mention that disk space required for LMDB blockchain is much larger than previous version. I wonder how do we attract new adopters with such terrible user experience. Pointing them to hosted wallet such as MyMonero isn't the solution. Syncing blockchain and refreshing the wallet somehow should be combined in one process to reduce the pain for new users.

On the side note, it seems wallet created in Windows could not be opened in Linux. I had to recover using 25 seed words.
legendary
Activity: 1105
Merit: 1000
Quote
I would say closer to ZeroCash. I've heard from the relevant experts that Monero is not computationally-efficient enough to stand on its own, but I have similar problems with ZeroCash standing on its own (it is almost "too private", for people to check and make sure it's working correctly). However, I think both (and/or, the concept of "coin privacy") will be among the first practical, usable, sidechain applications. I think that people will sidechain coins over, mix them on the sidechain, and then send them back.

What are they implying by "not computationally-efficient enough to stand on its own"?

I'm honestly not sure.

There are criticisms about the chain being larger than Bitcoin. That's one thing, maybe an issue in practice, maybe not, but not really the same question as "computationally efficient".

There have also been criticisms of the PoW being too slow. This was a bigger concern before it got optimized and verifying a PoW took a second or something. But now at 20 ms, I don't really see this as disastrous. Even if it is, it could easily be replaced, and doesn't constitute a scaling issue (PoW cost doesn't go up as usage increases, in fact it decreases per-tx).

I'm not really sure where a criticism of the protocol itself being too computationally inefficient would come from. The signature verification is based on DJB's elliptic curve methods that are designed to be very efficient. We can verify something like 1400 signatures/sec on CPUs that are a couple of generations out of date. And that isn't even fully optimized.

So who knows. Sometimes memes based on a tiny bit of information, possibly taken out of context or misinterpreted, just get out there and take on a life of their own, making them very hard to ever fully kill off.

I assume you meant transactions instead of signatures.

For example this recent tx "06246f5c78aefac38b6c539ffc2ead5d48d452a38dbffe019cb63668aba657ed" has 15 inputs at mix 1, or 30 signatures. It took 3ms to verify on my machine (i7-4770). That would imply 10k sigs verified per second (not sure if this is multithreaded or not, and I'm not sure how much overhead there is on verifying beyond sig checking).
legendary
Activity: 1638
Merit: 1001
Quote
I would say closer to ZeroCash. I've heard from the relevant experts that Monero is not computationally-efficient enough to stand on its own, but I have similar problems with ZeroCash standing on its own (it is almost "too private", for people to check and make sure it's working correctly). However, I think both (and/or, the concept of "coin privacy") will be among the first practical, usable, sidechain applications. I think that people will sidechain coins over, mix them on the sidechain, and then send them back.

What are they implying by "not computationally-efficient enough to stand on its own"?

No coin stands on its own, so long as shapeshift, localbitcoins, btc-e, poloniex, etc. exist.

They are implying they missed the most recent opportunity to buy Monero at ~0.001 BTC, and will have to wait a liitle while for the next one.   Cheesy

FTFY
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
Quote
I would say closer to ZeroCash. I've heard from the relevant experts that Monero is not computationally-efficient enough to stand on its own, but I have similar problems with ZeroCash standing on its own (it is almost "too private", for people to check and make sure it's working correctly). However, I think both (and/or, the concept of "coin privacy") will be among the first practical, usable, sidechain applications. I think that people will sidechain coins over, mix them on the sidechain, and then send them back.

What are they implying by "not computationally-efficient enough to stand on its own"?

No coin stands on its own, so long as shapeshift, localbitcoins, btc-e, poloniex, etc. exist.

They are implying they missed the opportunity to buy Monero at ~0.001 BTC.   Cheesy
legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
Quote
I would say closer to ZeroCash. I've heard from the relevant experts that Monero is not computationally-efficient enough to stand on its own, but I have similar problems with ZeroCash standing on its own (it is almost "too private", for people to check and make sure it's working correctly). However, I think both (and/or, the concept of "coin privacy") will be among the first practical, usable, sidechain applications. I think that people will sidechain coins over, mix them on the sidechain, and then send them back.

What are they implying by "not computationally-efficient enough to stand on its own"?

I'm honestly not sure.

There are criticisms about the chain being larger than Bitcoin. That's one thing, maybe an issue in practice, maybe not, but not really the same question as "computationally efficient".

There have also been criticisms of the PoW being too slow. This was a bigger concern before it got optimized and verifying a PoW took a second or something. But now at 20 ms, I don't really see this as disastrous. Even if it is, it could easily be replaced, and doesn't constitute a scaling issue (PoW cost doesn't go up as usage increases, in fact it decreases per-tx).

I'm not really sure where a criticism of the protocol itself being too computationally inefficient would come from. The signature verification is based on DJB's elliptic curve methods that are designed to be very efficient. We can verify something like 1400 signatures/sec on CPUs that are a couple of generations out of date. And that isn't even fully optimized.

So who knows. Sometimes memes based on a tiny bit of information, possibly taken out of context or misinterpreted, just get out there and take on a life of their own, making them very hard to ever fully kill off.
legendary
Activity: 1762
Merit: 1011
Quote
I would say closer to ZeroCash. I've heard from the relevant experts that Monero is not computationally-efficient enough to stand on its own, but I have similar problems with ZeroCash standing on its own (it is almost "too private", for people to check and make sure it's working correctly). However, I think both (and/or, the concept of "coin privacy") will be among the first practical, usable, sidechain applications. I think that people will sidechain coins over, mix them on the sidechain, and then send them back.

What are they implying by "not computationally-efficient enough to stand on its own"?
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
Yes 97.09% funded Smiley  If you want to donate hurry up before you are unable to Grin 

The more funding XMR devs request, the faster their requests are fulfilled.

I like this trend!   Cheesy

Go Mustangs!
legendary
Activity: 1624
Merit: 1008
Yes 97.09% funded Smiley  If you want to donate hurry up before you are unable to Grin 
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 1141

8 hours approximately. Besides, I guess we should thank ArticMine for that, he donated ~12k. Big props!
legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1030
Sine secretum non libertas
Big pump?

Just fiat-stability in a declining btc world.  There is a speculation thread for this sort of thing, though.
hero member
Activity: 687
Merit: 500
novag
legendary
Activity: 1624
Merit: 1008
Love sent.  Kiss
hero member
Activity: 794
Merit: 1000
Monero (XMR) - secure, private, untraceable
//offtopic. I'll delete it if against the rules.

We are raising donations for this campaign. There are already 351$ and 0.0403 BTC in donations for Bojia:
"The 80 years old mother Bojia Bikova was accused of growing hemp by the Bulgarian police, who found a few uprooted sprigs of hemp in her field in the countryside. She was sentenced to pay about $1100 including court taxes. The monthly pension of old mother Bojia is $100. The amount she has to pay is close to the full amount of her pension for the whole year."
You could watch a short video about her case here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqmGkti9uUQ.
I created an XMR address for this campaign. Please support it. If in doubt about the validity of the address, I could ask our admin to add an OpenAlias XMR address to promena.org:
Code:
49bXbjMqAGmQCApWssWKMd9pnMq2AnExkUCrajnAeGM6dsJNagvwCd8VQxVWs3gamMQTxWirG9yrEeKpSocFyTGbH4TEvu4

//offtopic
This may be the first non-governmental organization accepting Monero donations for its campaigns. We added OpenAlias xmr address to promena.org. It seems that the domain registrar is not adding TXT DNS records correctly with their GUI. They are adding "invisible spaces" like the space in the Monero address in bitcointalk (you could see the spaces here - type promena.org and select TXT record: http://manytools.org/network/query-dns-records-online). The result is that you can't add a valid OpenAlias address (or any valid long words TXT record). How many domain registrars are out there which are doing the same?
The domain registrar fixed their bug and the OpenAlias address promena.org is now working for the "Bojia" campaign. My contribution is 20 XMR. I'll make sure the total sum of Monero donations is cited at the end of the campaign and I'm pretty sure a successful campaign will catch some media attention (Bulgarian media are already following the "Bojia" case).
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