[XMR] Monero Speculation - page 1740.

smoothie

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LEALANA Bitcoin Grim Reaper

Quote from: Gillette on September 26, 2015, 03:44:42 AM

Quote from: LucyLovesCrypto on September 26, 2015, 03:38:14 AM

Quote from: Gillette on September 26, 2015, 03:35:23 AM

Quote from: smooth on September 25, 2015, 07:54:40 PM

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3mea6b/bitpay_is_blacklisting_certain_bitcoins_rejecting

If such legit merchant processors as Bitpay and Coinbase reject dirty BTC, why do you think any crypto transaction processor will accept XMR payments if everyone knows that XMR is widely used for dark deals?

The laws in every country are different and will impact the decisions of companies like Bitpay. If enough companies start to blacklist BTC then the acceleration to alternatives such as Monero will accelerate

In the field of AML/KYC/Anti-terrorism all countries laws are relatively similar, so don`t expect that big companies will invest in stealth digital currencies. So stealth currencies will only be used in dark markets which is a very limited frame of usage.

Two words: VIEW KEY

GingerAle

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in fact, the service I described might actually be what banks become - auditing services. Centralized repositories of transaction data. So if big company X wants to do business with big company Y, they will pay some fee for First National Bank of Monero to inform them that their account in the blockchain is in good standing.

In essence, these services are still "banks", they are just banks of information... (which is kind of what they are today, just abstracted via money)

GingerAle

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Quote from: Gillette on September 26, 2015, 05:57:44 AM

Quote from: XMRpromotions on September 26, 2015, 05:42:17 AM

Quote from: Gillette on September 26, 2015, 05:35:18 AM

Quote from: wpalczynski on September 26, 2015, 05:22:07 AM

Quote from: Gillette on September 26, 2015, 03:35:23 AM

Quote from: smooth on September 25, 2015, 07:54:40 PM

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3mea6b/bitpay_is_blacklisting_certain_bitcoins_rejecting

If such legit merchant processors as Bitpay and Coinbase reject dirty BTC, why do you think any crypto transaction processor will accept XMR payments if everyone knows that XMR is widely used for dark deals?

Can you substantiate that claim?

Anon coins are created for dark markets. Believe me no one will use XMR which does not even have a direct fiat-xmr exchange for legal purposes Cheesy

For legal activity there is BTC which can be very easily purchased.

Privacy has tons of benefits not relating to dark markets at all. Would you publish your bank account balance, payroll and supplier payment data on a transparent blockchain for all your competitors to see? The answer should be obvious

Yes, the answer is obvious but it is also obvious that anon coin will be mainly used for illegal activities. So do you think governments will allow anon coins while they know they breach AML policies?

Some years ago people were hiding their bank account balances, payroll and supplier payment data in offshore banks but currently there are no more offshores guaranteeing privacy. They all accepted AEOI rules under USA pressure.

XMR, luckily, doesn't have to break AML policies. One can imagine some future auditing service wherein some company gets your viewkey. They can then see every incoming transaction to your account. If you can't provide details regarding where that money came from, then you're in trouble. If you can, then your compliant. Of course, this doesn't stop one from having multiple XMR accounts, but this "problem" also exists in bitcoin, and to some extent the contemporary banking system. Granted, its very difficult to get a contemporary bank account without using some form of identification... but moral of the story is, if "they" let bitcoin exist, there's no reason to squash Monero if "they" figure out how to properly implement viewkeys.

wpalczynski

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Quote from: Gillette on September 26, 2015, 05:57:44 AM

Quote from: XMRpromotions on September 26, 2015, 05:42:17 AM

Quote from: Gillette on September 26, 2015, 05:35:18 AM

Quote from: wpalczynski on September 26, 2015, 05:22:07 AM

Quote from: Gillette on September 26, 2015, 03:35:23 AM

Quote from: smooth on September 25, 2015, 07:54:40 PM

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3mea6b/bitpay_is_blacklisting_certain_bitcoins_rejecting

If such legit merchant processors as Bitpay and Coinbase reject dirty BTC, why do you think any crypto transaction processor will accept XMR payments if everyone knows that XMR is widely used for dark deals?

Can you substantiate that claim?

Anon coins are created for dark markets. Believe me no one will use XMR which does not even have a direct fiat-xmr exchange for legal purposes Cheesy

For legal activity there is BTC which can be very easily purchased.

Privacy has tons of benefits not relating to dark markets at all. Would you publish your bank account balance, payroll and supplier payment data on a transparent blockchain for all your competitors to see? The answer should be obvious

Yes, the answer is obvious but it is also obvious that anon coin will be mainly used for illegal activities. So do you think governments will allow anon coins while they know they breach AML policies?

Some years ago people were hiding their bank account balances, payroll and supplier payment data in offshore banks but currently there are no more offshores guaranteeing privacy. They all accepted AEOI rules under USA pressure.

Its not about govt allowing, how will they prevent people from using XMR?. The chokepoint with all this nonsense is the FIAT exchange. Since BTC is already condoned by most governments and BTC can be traded for XMR people who wish to transact privately will be able to do so.

Gillette

hero member

Activity: 744

Merit: 500

Quote from: XMRpromotions on September 26, 2015, 05:42:17 AM

Quote from: Gillette on September 26, 2015, 05:35:18 AM

Quote from: wpalczynski on September 26, 2015, 05:22:07 AM

Quote from: Gillette on September 26, 2015, 03:35:23 AM

Quote from: smooth on September 25, 2015, 07:54:40 PM

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3mea6b/bitpay_is_blacklisting_certain_bitcoins_rejecting

If such legit merchant processors as Bitpay and Coinbase reject dirty BTC, why do you think any crypto transaction processor will accept XMR payments if everyone knows that XMR is widely used for dark deals?

Can you substantiate that claim?

Anon coins are created for dark markets. Believe me no one will use XMR which does not even have a direct fiat-xmr exchange for legal purposes Cheesy

For legal activity there is BTC which can be very easily purchased.

Privacy has tons of benefits not relating to dark markets at all. Would you publish your bank account balance, payroll and supplier payment data on a transparent blockchain for all your competitors to see? The answer should be obvious

Yes, the answer is obvious but it is also obvious that anon coin will be mainly used for illegal activities. So do you think governments will allow anon coins while they know they breach AML policies?

Some years ago people were hiding their bank account balances, payroll and supplier payment data in offshore banks but currently there are no more offshores guaranteeing privacy. They all accepted AEOI rules under USA pressure.

XMRpromotions

sr. member

Activity: 336

Merit: 250

Quote from: Gillette on September 26, 2015, 05:35:18 AM

Quote from: wpalczynski on September 26, 2015, 05:22:07 AM

Quote from: Gillette on September 26, 2015, 03:35:23 AM

Quote from: smooth on September 25, 2015, 07:54:40 PM

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3mea6b/bitpay_is_blacklisting_certain_bitcoins_rejecting

If such legit merchant processors as Bitpay and Coinbase reject dirty BTC, why do you think any crypto transaction processor will accept XMR payments if everyone knows that XMR is widely used for dark deals?

Can you substantiate that claim?

Anon coins are created for dark markets. Believe me no one will use XMR which does not even have a direct fiat-xmr exchange for legal purposes Cheesy

For legal activity there is BTC which can be very easily purchased.

Privacy has tons of benefits not relating to dark markets at all. Would you publish your bank account balance, payroll and supplier payment data on a transparent blockchain for all your competitors to see? The answer should be obvious

Gillette

hero member

Activity: 744

Merit: 500

Quote from: wpalczynski on September 26, 2015, 05:22:07 AM

Quote from: Gillette on September 26, 2015, 03:35:23 AM

Quote from: smooth on September 25, 2015, 07:54:40 PM

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3mea6b/bitpay_is_blacklisting_certain_bitcoins_rejecting

If such legit merchant processors as Bitpay and Coinbase reject dirty BTC, why do you think any crypto transaction processor will accept XMR payments if everyone knows that XMR is widely used for dark deals?

Can you substantiate that claim?

Anon coins are created for dark markets. Believe me no one will use XMR which does not even have a direct fiat-xmr exchange for legal purposes Cheesy

For legal activity there is BTC which can be very easily purchased.

smooth

legendary

Activity: 2968

Merit: 1198

Quote from: wpalczynski on September 26, 2015, 05:22:07 AM

Quote from: Gillette on September 26, 2015, 03:35:23 AM

Quote from: smooth on September 25, 2015, 07:54:40 PM

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3mea6b/bitpay_is_blacklisting_certain_bitcoins_rejecting

If such legit merchant processors as Bitpay and Coinbase reject dirty BTC, why do you think any crypto transaction processor will accept XMR payments if everyone knows that XMR is widely used for dark deals?

Can you substantiate that claim?

Read like a hypothetical to me.

wpalczynski

legendary

Activity: 1456

Merit: 1000

Quote from: Gillette on September 26, 2015, 03:35:23 AM

Quote from: smooth on September 25, 2015, 07:54:40 PM

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3mea6b/bitpay_is_blacklisting_certain_bitcoins_rejecting

If such legit merchant processors as Bitpay and Coinbase reject dirty BTC, why do you think any crypto transaction processor will accept XMR payments if everyone knows that XMR is widely used for dark deals?

Can you substantiate that claim?

Gillette

hero member

Activity: 744

Merit: 500

Quote from: newb4now on September 26, 2015, 03:55:33 AM

Quote from: owm123 on September 25, 2015, 01:48:51 AM

Quote from: generalizethis on September 25, 2015, 01:17:38 AM

Quote from: owm123 on September 25, 2015, 12:59:08 AM

The purpose of xmr is to protect one's privacy. This is at least my understanding. I dont view monero as a bitcoin killer or even a litecoin killer. Its there with one main purpose, to ensure everone a right to privacy. Not everyone cares about privacy. So bitcoin is not going anywhere anytime soon. But there are people that value their privacy. For them monero is a perfect solution.

Also, there is no reason to use monero for tax evasion, or to think about it as being desing for this purpose. In monero you have view keys, to disclose the transactions when needed. So a merchant or a person can keep their transactions privet from other merchants or people, but be fully transparent to tax office to which he/she can provide its view keys.

Companies and governments determine what money they accept, and what company or government is going to want a money that links them to all their activities for all time?

Yes, companies and governments decide, and they will not allow anonymous or even psedoanynomouse cruptocurrency to be "officially" used which is not controlled by government/company.

In Russia, for example, they already want to launch their own cyrpto, approved by government. The "BitRuble will not be pseudo-anonymous like bitcoin due to the aforementioned Anti-Money Laundering (AML) and Know-Your-Customer (KYC) policies pursued by the regulator".

Its super easy for government to force ppl to use their 'own' cyryptocurrency. Its enough that they will pass laws requiring merchants to accept NSAcoin or whatever coin (or employers to pay salaries with such a coin) that the government can track and control.

Not every country will do this. Some countries that care about privacy (like Switzerland or something) might go the opposite way and embrace something like Monero in an attempt to attract privacy focused businesses (like shapeshift) who are seeking a new home.

In the future people may immigrate to new countries for privacy reasons.

Under the USA and EU pressure Switzerland has modified its legislation. They offer no more numbered accounts and they exchange client datum with USA and other countries.

Other offshore countries also begin accepting AEOI rules under USA pressure.

newb4now

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Activity: 686

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Quote from: owm123 on September 25, 2015, 01:48:51 AM

Quote from: generalizethis on September 25, 2015, 01:17:38 AM

Quote from: owm123 on September 25, 2015, 12:59:08 AM

The purpose of xmr is to protect one's privacy. This is at least my understanding. I dont view monero as a bitcoin killer or even a litecoin killer. Its there with one main purpose, to ensure everone a right to privacy. Not everyone cares about privacy. So bitcoin is not going anywhere anytime soon. But there are people that value their privacy. For them monero is a perfect solution.

Also, there is no reason to use monero for tax evasion, or to think about it as being desing for this purpose. In monero you have view keys, to disclose the transactions when needed. So a merchant or a person can keep their transactions privet from other merchants or people, but be fully transparent to tax office to which he/she can provide its view keys.

Companies and governments determine what money they accept, and what company or government is going to want a money that links them to all their activities for all time?

Yes, companies and governments decide, and they will not allow anonymous or even psedoanynomouse cruptocurrency to be "officially" used which is not controlled by government/company.

In Russia, for example, they already want to launch their own cyrpto, approved by government. The "BitRuble will not be pseudo-anonymous like bitcoin due to the aforementioned Anti-Money Laundering (AML) and Know-Your-Customer (KYC) policies pursued by the regulator".

Its super easy for government to force ppl to use their 'own' cyryptocurrency. Its enough that they will pass laws requiring merchants to accept NSAcoin or whatever coin (or employers to pay salaries with such a coin) that the government can track and control.

Not every country will do this. Some countries that care about privacy (like Switzerland or something) might go the opposite way and embrace something like Monero in an attempt to attract privacy focused businesses (like shapeshift) who are seeking a new home.

In the future people may immigrate to new countries for privacy reasons.

Gillette

hero member

Activity: 744

Merit: 500

Quote from: LucyLovesCrypto on September 26, 2015, 03:38:14 AM

Quote from: Gillette on September 26, 2015, 03:35:23 AM

Quote from: smooth on September 25, 2015, 07:54:40 PM

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3mea6b/bitpay_is_blacklisting_certain_bitcoins_rejecting

If such legit merchant processors as Bitpay and Coinbase reject dirty BTC, why do you think any crypto transaction processor will accept XMR payments if everyone knows that XMR is widely used for dark deals?

The laws in every country are different and will impact the decisions of companies like Bitpay. If enough companies start to blacklist BTC then the acceleration to alternatives such as Monero will accelerate

In the field of AML/KYC/Anti-terrorism all countries laws are relatively similar, so don`t expect that big companies will invest in stealth digital currencies. So stealth currencies will only be used in dark markets which is a very limited frame of usage.

LucyLovesCrypto

sr. member

Activity: 414

Merit: 251

Quote from: XMRpromotions on September 25, 2015, 10:13:44 PM

Quote from: Melbustus on September 25, 2015, 08:20:14 PM

https://twitter.com/bitcoin_sm/status/647544235248320512

Edit: Just noticed smooth's post above with the Reddit link...

Good material. I just made a few fungibility related tweets!

Anyone else surprised by the the last chess move? Did Karpov return from retirement?

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.12523909

This is good news for Monero. Fungibility matters!

Thanks for the chess link for the GM game!

I joined both that and the new CryptoNote coin chess game against BBR

LucyLovesCrypto

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Quote from: Gillette on September 26, 2015, 03:35:23 AM

Quote from: smooth on September 25, 2015, 07:54:40 PM

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3mea6b/bitpay_is_blacklisting_certain_bitcoins_rejecting

If such legit merchant processors as Bitpay and Coinbase reject dirty BTC, why do you think any crypto transaction processor will accept XMR payments if everyone knows that XMR is widely used for dark deals?

The laws in every country are different and will impact the decisions of companies like Bitpay. If enough companies start to blacklist BTC then the acceleration to alternatives such as Monero will accelerate

Gillette

hero member

Activity: 744

Merit: 500

Quote from: smooth on September 25, 2015, 07:54:40 PM

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3mea6b/bitpay_is_blacklisting_certain_bitcoins_rejecting

If such legit merchant processors as Bitpay and Coinbase reject dirty BTC, why do you think any crypto transaction processor will accept XMR payments if everyone knows that XMR is widely used for dark deals?

smoothie

legendary

Activity: 2492

Merit: 1491

LEALANA Bitcoin Grim Reaper

Quote from: XMRpromotions on September 25, 2015, 10:13:44 PM

Quote from: Melbustus on September 25, 2015, 08:20:14 PM

https://twitter.com/bitcoin_sm/status/647544235248320512

Edit: Just noticed smooth's post above with the Reddit link...

Good material. I just made a few fungibility related tweets!

Anyone else surprised by the the last chess move? Did Karpov return from retirement?

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.12523909

I honestly think it is a pretty big issue.

Of course overall it isn't wide spread but it could get that way.

People will lose faith if they can't spend bitcoins they bought because of blacklists.

XMRpromotions

sr. member

Activity: 336

Merit: 250

Quote from: Melbustus on September 25, 2015, 08:20:14 PM

https://twitter.com/bitcoin_sm/status/647544235248320512

Edit: Just noticed smooth's post above with the Reddit link...

Good material. I just made a few fungibility related tweets!

Anyone else surprised by the the last chess move? Did Karpov return from retirement?

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.12523909

kazuki49

sr. member

Activity: 350

Merit: 250

Quote from: kazuki49 on September 23, 2015, 10:52:37 AM

Quote from: futureofbitcoin on September 23, 2015, 10:18:41 AM

Quote from: binaryFate on September 23, 2015, 07:51:02 AM

Quote from: futureofbitcoin on September 23, 2015, 07:28:29 AM

Does USD have fungibility problems? CAD? EUR? JPY? RMB?

Nope. Why? See following point.

Quote from: futureofbitcoin on September 23, 2015, 07:28:29 AM

They have serial numbers on them. Theoretically you can say "this serial number is now worthless". But they are working currencies. People trust them.

You are forced by law to accept all notes.
Otherwise it would break fungibility. This has been the case all over the world in various financial systems, since this famous case:
http://www.paybits.net/blog/why-fungibility-matters/

Fungibility of money can be enforced by law only in a centralized monetary system. Bitcoin isn't centralized, there is nobody enforcing fungibility by law. It's possible for everyone to define their own rules, analyse and trace everything they wish, point the fingers to coins, transactions and merchants accepting or refusing them.

Thus, in a decentralized monetary system the only way to have fungibility is through privacy. (It applies to the physical world as well: if all gold historical ownership was known to everyone - with a simple internet connection! - gold fungibility would be broken instantly. Its fungibility comes from that it doesn't convey its own history with itself).

See, the problem with your logic, is that you're only looking at it one way.

There's no central authority to enforce laws saying "you must accept all bitcoins". Similarly, there is no central authority saying "You can't accept these bitcoins".

How is blacklisting of coins going to be enforced? It won't be. People can't even agree on the blocksize.

Quote

Coinbase closing accounts because it notices people gamble isn't worrying to you?

Nope, and I can assure you that the VAST majority of the world doesn't care either. It doesn't matter whether it's "right" to care or not; what matters is whether people ACTUALLY cares.

You don't get it, you think every player is good, some WILL enforce all kinds of weird blacklists and since there is no law (yet) you can't do anything about it, thats where live the danger, bitcoin has no future as transfer of wealth.

boom

Melbustus

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