2022–23 PBA Commissioner's Cup - page 435.

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Quote from: chaser15 on November 08, 2021, 06:59:02 PM

This is the unfortunate part of being in an SMC team. No matter how you contribute to the team, they will trade you even you are on a brink of a few conferences to play in the PBA. It happened also to James Yap.

That is not business since there's no big money involved. SMC teams just want to keep things competitive and they need a big man as TNT Katropa puts up a challenge to them last playoffs.

Add Danny Ildefonso to the list mate Grin

. Danny had a stellar career when he is with the Beermeen and lead them to multiple championships but the front office doesn't value that because he got traded when there is an opportunity to get young players out of him.

This could also happen to Fajardo but I think the Kraken is very aware of this and he expected already that this could happen to him also.

Like I have said in my previous post, SMC is taking seriously the TNT threat and they will do what they can so to beat TNT next conference.

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Quote from: LogitechMouse on November 09, 2021, 12:29:16 AM

Quote from: chaser15 on November 08, 2021, 06:59:02 PM

This is the unfortunate part of being in an SMC team. No matter how you contribute to the team, they will trade you even you are on a brink of a few conferences to play in the PBA. It happened also to James Yap.

That is not business since there's no big money involved. SMC teams just want to keep things competitive and they need a big man as TNT Katropa puts up a challenge to them last playoffs.

Arwind is 40 years old already and they don't want that he will retire without any exchanges. Maybe that is the reason why they traded him.
Even Coach Austria admitted on one of the interviews that the so-called "Death 5" is aging already thus, they will make moves in the future whatever happens. This is one of the moves that he is saying. TNT is a strong team with a great coach and with how they've performed last Filipino Cup, I bet that they are still one of the picks in winning the championship coming this Governor's Cup.

As a fan, we feel bad that Arwind has been traded and we're probably thinking about the perks of retiring with this one of the greatest PBA teams. But on the other hand, Manuel's happy that he's now with his dream team. Roster changes and swaps are very normal and it's part of the business inside the league. Age is a big factor and these teams only wants the best to play for them although there's certainly a big factor about business deals and money matters.

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Quote from: chaser15 on November 08, 2021, 06:59:02 PM

This is the unfortunate part of being in an SMC team. No matter how you contribute to the team, they will trade you even you are on a brink of a few conferences to play in the PBA. It happened also to James Yap.

That is not business since there's no big money involved. SMC teams just want to keep things competitive and they need a big man as TNT Katropa puts up a challenge to them last playoffs.

They really have to make a great team again and if they see that player is not performing anymore also considering the age, then a trade is necessary beside you can’t really stay on a top teams if you’re not performing very well even if you contribute a lot in the past this is very normal on Basketball.

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Quote from: Vaculin on November 09, 2021, 08:02:32 AM

Quote from: Maslate on November 09, 2021, 06:59:54 AM

Quote from: LogitechMouse on November 09, 2021, 12:29:16 AM

Arwind is 40 years old already and they don't want that he will retire without any exchanges. Maybe that is the reason why they traded him.
Even Coach Austria admitted on one of the interviews that the so-called "Death 5" is aging already thus, they will make moves in the future whatever happens. This is one of the moves that he is saying. TNT is a strong team with a great coach and with how they've performed last Filipino Cup, I bet that they are still one of the picks in winning the championship coming this Governor's Cup.

SMB will always be one of the favorites to win a championship as they have the best player in the PBA which is JMF. He could be healthier next conference and he really needs that as there are imports that are more aggressive and more dominant, so if JMF's presence is felt, then SMB will be more successful next conference, and who knows, they would probably win a championship again.

They are for sure but next season it will be the Barangay Ginebra because they have Justin Brownlee who always delivers good results for the team. I am so excited to see the PBA start this month, and I hope to see a competitive race for the best import too. Fajardo will probably improve as he continues his training and conditioning himself to get back to his oldself, we can bet on that.

With Justine the chemistry of Ginebra will be organized again, they have him for so many time and this import always been a good leader, It's a good hope for the fans to see the team bring back this momentum playing as a team, It's very possible beating TNT if they will play the same level that they usually have when Justine is playing around them. Wink

We will see how this import will once again lift the spirit up for this franchise. Not a big Gin kings fan, but Justine always amazes me. The caliber that he has and brings to the league gives most fans a reason to watch each game. Cool

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Quote from: Maslate on November 09, 2021, 06:59:54 AM

Quote from: LogitechMouse on November 09, 2021, 12:29:16 AM

Arwind is 40 years old already and they don't want that he will retire without any exchanges. Maybe that is the reason why they traded him.
Even Coach Austria admitted on one of the interviews that the so-called "Death 5" is aging already thus, they will make moves in the future whatever happens. This is one of the moves that he is saying. TNT is a strong team with a great coach and with how they've performed last Filipino Cup, I bet that they are still one of the picks in winning the championship coming this Governor's Cup.

SMB will always be one of the favorites to win a championship as they have the best player in the PBA which is JMF. He could be healthier next conference and he really needs that as there are imports that are more aggressive and more dominant, so if JMF's presence is felt, then SMB will be more successful next conference, and who knows, they would probably win a championship again.

If Fajardo's performance will increase this upcoming conference, the chance of winning the title is always there for SMB.

No doubts that even he is also aging and does have injuries, his presence still their being felt by their opponents, what else if he will perform the monstrous

performances that he always been known Roll Eyes

He can dominate inside with his size and speed, we don't see him playing that much last all-Filipino but

Doesn't mean he can no longer bring that type of game. It's been inside him just the timing and the injury that cause him to slow thing out.

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Quote from: Maslate on November 09, 2021, 06:59:54 AM

Quote from: LogitechMouse on November 09, 2021, 12:29:16 AM

Arwind is 40 years old already and they don't want that he will retire without any exchanges. Maybe that is the reason why they traded him.
Even Coach Austria admitted on one of the interviews that the so-called "Death 5" is aging already thus, they will make moves in the future whatever happens. This is one of the moves that he is saying. TNT is a strong team with a great coach and with how they've performed last Filipino Cup, I bet that they are still one of the picks in winning the championship coming this Governor's Cup.

SMB will always be one of the favorites to win a championship as they have the best player in the PBA which is JMF. He could be healthier next conference and he really needs that as there are imports that are more aggressive and more dominant, so if JMF's presence is felt, then SMB will be more successful next conference, and who knows, they would probably win a championship again.

They are for sure but next season it will be the Barangay Ginebra because they have Justin Brownlee who always delivers good results for the team. I am so excited to see the PBA start this month, and I hope to see a competitive race for the best import too. Fajardo will probably improve as he continues his training and conditioning himself to get back to his oldself, we can bet on that.

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Quote from: LogitechMouse on November 09, 2021, 12:29:16 AM

Arwind is 40 years old already and they don't want that he will retire without any exchanges. Maybe that is the reason why they traded him.
Even Coach Austria admitted on one of the interviews that the so-called "Death 5" is aging already thus, they will make moves in the future whatever happens. This is one of the moves that he is saying. TNT is a strong team with a great coach and with how they've performed last Filipino Cup, I bet that they are still one of the picks in winning the championship coming this Governor's Cup.

SMB will always be one of the favorites to win a championship as they have the best player in the PBA which is JMF. He could be healthier next conference and he really needs that as there are imports that are more aggressive and more dominant, so if JMF's presence is felt, then SMB will be more successful next conference, and who knows, they would probably win a championship again.

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Quote from: harizen on November 08, 2021, 06:23:06 PM

Some SMB fans in social media think Vic Manuel added a boost to their firepower. Maybe I will agree to them if he's still in his prime. Don't get overhyped on that trade. Since Governors Cup is coming, Vic Manuel might end up as a bench player. The reason is because of his position. He is mostly used as Power Forward but since there's an import next conference, rotations will be modified. I don't see him playing alongside Fajardo as SMB is always putting 3 guards.

However, he will be the best backup and support as in PBA, having a big man is an advantage.

I agree with this part thought I admit that I got a bit hype because of the trade and I thought Cheesy

. Manuel is considered as a undersized big consider his position that he usually is playing so I think that in the end, he will be like Perez that will start as a bench player but they will give minutes to him still. With the part where him and Fajardo will not play together, we saw Fajardo and Tautuaa played together against TNT so for me there might be a time that these 2 might play together.

Quote from: chaser15 on November 08, 2021, 06:59:02 PM

This is the unfortunate part of being in an SMC team. No matter how you contribute to the team, they will trade you even you are on a brink of a few conferences to play in the PBA. It happened also to James Yap.

That is not business since there's no big money involved. SMC teams just want to keep things competitive and they need a big man as TNT Katropa puts up a challenge to them last playoffs.

Arwind is 40 years old already and they don't want that he will retire without any exchanges. Maybe that is the reason why they traded him.
Even Coach Austria admitted on one of the interviews that the so-called "Death 5" is aging already thus, they will make moves in the future whatever happens. This is one of the moves that he is saying. TNT is a strong team with a great coach and with how they've performed last Filipino Cup, I bet that they are still one of the picks in winning the championship coming this Governor's Cup.

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This is the unfortunate part of being in an SMC team. No matter how you contribute to the team, they will trade you even you are on a brink of a few conferences to play in the PBA. It happened also to James Yap.

That is not business since there's no big money involved. SMC teams just want to keep things competitive and they need a big man as TNT Katropa puts up a challenge to them last playoffs.

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Some SMB fans in social media think Vic Manuel added a boost to their firepower. Maybe I will agree to them if he's still in his prime. Don't get overhyped on that trade. Since Governors Cup is coming, Vic Manuel might end up as a bench player. The reason is because of his position. He is mostly used as Power Forward but since there's an import next conference, rotations will be modified. I don't see him playing alongside Fajardo as SMB is always putting 3 guards.

However, he will be the best backup and support as in PBA, having a big man is an advantage.

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Quote from: Kasabus on November 08, 2021, 03:31:58 PM

For sure Northport won't be able to renew his contract with the same amount or higher once it expires because his current contract makes him in the top 10 highest earners in the PBA. Number 5 in the list here - https://www.trendrr.net/10957/highest-paid-most-successful-pba-players-salary-famous-richest/

Arwin Santos is 40 years old now, he might only get a veterans contract after the current.

Or also possible that he just going to consume the rest of his contract and retired after, He already earned a lot of money during his stay with SMB, it's time to enjoy those money. The trade is to open new opportunities for other players to play with SMB, if Manuel will not suit himself he will also be traded that's how their job works.

If you are not an asset, you'll find yourself out from the team, make each game valuable and be more competitive to continue getting a good relationship with the management.

Thanks Arwin for all those memories, no doubt that you always a big part of SMB family.

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Quote from: Viscore on November 07, 2021, 05:44:28 AM

Quote from: blockman on November 07, 2021, 03:05:05 AM

We don't have an idea how the other imports play. It's always favorable to him for the opinion of fans because we know how he plays. But there could be some surprises for the other imports.

I hope to see that surprise as it's not good if Brownlee will still dominate like in the past season, his greatest rival is only Allen Durham who also won the best import award before playing with the Meralco Bolts. It's been a while, I almost forgot the imports the last time the PBA have this conference, so it's like freshen our mind on these imports.

I have other favorite imports too but it was a long time ago and many years have passed already. As support to the PBA, we're always counting that all of them play the best basketball.
That's why these imports are always given the long play time and they're likely the lead scorer and I've also watched some good imports too that are like a support to the team but have forgotten the names.

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Quote from: freedomgo on November 08, 2021, 04:04:11 PM

Quote from: Kasabus on November 08, 2021, 03:31:58 PM

Quote from: Viscore on November 08, 2021, 09:22:20 AM

Quote from: Fredomago on November 08, 2021, 08:19:57 AM

Quote from: mirakal on November 08, 2021, 02:58:48 AM

I guess this will be the end of Santos' career. Vic Manuel is a good steal for the SMB because he can work inside unlike Arwind who only shoots outside and doesn't do his low post game anymore. They really believe that TNT is a threat because TNT beat all the SMB corporation teams and they need to be better his new conference.

If the price is right santos is willing to move and accept that fate, who among us expect that Danny I who brings a lot of title to this company and he is not just a role player but the main man of the team, it's pretty normal to see players to go and be traded, the thing that I didn't expect is SMB will acquired Manuel who just traded from Phoenix.

I just looking for any good information but it's really a big surprise, with him, towering inside together with Tau and JMF will be the toughest core to dominate.

And with Terrence and CJ, it's a PH national against the PBA team. Grin

This is a trade, Santos has no choice but to accept it and play with Northport, I don't know when his contract will expire but at least he is required to play while his contract is still on and he has to play based on how he is expected to play. After his contract will expire, then we will know if he will be renewed or he will retire, it's just unfortunate that if he will not get renewed anymore, he cannot retire with SMB where he won multiple championships.

For sure Northport won't be able to renew his contract with the same amount or higher once it expires because his current contract makes him in the top 10 highest earners in the PBA. Number 5 in the list here - https://www.trendrr.net/10957/highest-paid-most-successful-pba-players-salary-famous-richest/

Arwin Santos is 40 years old now, he might only get a veterans contract after the current.

PBA is not so transparent with the salary of their players, as some posters said, they also have an under the table compensation especially if they win a championship. For Arwind Santos, this are the information I found online.

Last 2015, he signed a P15.1M deal for 3 years. so that's Php 5 million per month, source : https://news.abs-cbn.com/sports/08/20/15/arwind-cabagnot-ink-p151m-deal..... after this, I don't find an information on how much his new contract when he got renewed in 2018.

In the Philippines that's huge already, no wonder why other players are signing in B-Leauge as they can make bigger salary in just a short contract.

Some hint on what the B league players are making which obviously bigger than what the average salary of PBA are giving.

https://www.manilatimes.net/2020/06/26/sports/triple-pay-awaits-ravena-in-japan/735309

Quote

According to a 2019 article in Japan Times, the average base salary of Japanese players is $147,000.00 or P7,354,851 per year as of November.

That's for Thirdy Ravena only and he surely gets bigger salary than an ordinary player because he is an import.

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Quote from: Kasabus on November 08, 2021, 03:31:58 PM

Quote from: Viscore on November 08, 2021, 09:22:20 AM

Quote from: Fredomago on November 08, 2021, 08:19:57 AM

Quote from: mirakal on November 08, 2021, 02:58:48 AM

I guess this will be the end of Santos' career. Vic Manuel is a good steal for the SMB because he can work inside unlike Arwind who only shoots outside and doesn't do his low post game anymore. They really believe that TNT is a threat because TNT beat all the SMB corporation teams and they need to be better his new conference.

If the price is right santos is willing to move and accept that fate, who among us expect that Danny I who brings a lot of title to this company and he is not just a role player but the main man of the team, it's pretty normal to see players to go and be traded, the thing that I didn't expect is SMB will acquired Manuel who just traded from Phoenix.

I just looking for any good information but it's really a big surprise, with him, towering inside together with Tau and JMF will be the toughest core to dominate.

And with Terrence and CJ, it's a PH national against the PBA team. Grin

This is a trade, Santos has no choice but to accept it and play with Northport, I don't know when his contract will expire but at least he is required to play while his contract is still on and he has to play based on how he is expected to play. After his contract will expire, then we will know if he will be renewed or he will retire, it's just unfortunate that if he will not get renewed anymore, he cannot retire with SMB where he won multiple championships.

For sure Northport won't be able to renew his contract with the same amount or higher once it expires because his current contract makes him in the top 10 highest earners in the PBA. Number 5 in the list here - https://www.trendrr.net/10957/highest-paid-most-successful-pba-players-salary-famous-richest/

Arwin Santos is 40 years old now, he might only get a veterans contract after the current.

PBA is not so transparent with the salary of their players, as some posters said, they also have an under the table compensation especially if they win a championship. For Arwind Santos, this are the information I found online.

Last 2015, he signed a P15.1M deal for 3 years. so that's Php 5 million per month, source : https://news.abs-cbn.com/sports/08/20/15/arwind-cabagnot-ink-p151m-deal..... after this, I don't find an information on how much his new contract when he got renewed in 2018.

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Quote from: Viscore on November 08, 2021, 09:22:20 AM

Quote from: Fredomago on November 08, 2021, 08:19:57 AM

Quote from: mirakal on November 08, 2021, 02:58:48 AM

I guess this will be the end of Santos' career. Vic Manuel is a good steal for the SMB because he can work inside unlike Arwind who only shoots outside and doesn't do his low post game anymore. They really believe that TNT is a threat because TNT beat all the SMB corporation teams and they need to be better his new conference.

If the price is right santos is willing to move and accept that fate, who among us expect that Danny I who brings a lot of title to this company and he is not just a role player but the main man of the team, it's pretty normal to see players to go and be traded, the thing that I didn't expect is SMB will acquired Manuel who just traded from Phoenix.

I just looking for any good information but it's really a big surprise, with him, towering inside together with Tau and JMF will be the toughest core to dominate.

And with Terrence and CJ, it's a PH national against the PBA team. Grin

This is a trade, Santos has no choice but to accept it and play with Northport, I don't know when his contract will expire but at least he is required to play while his contract is still on and he has to play based on how he is expected to play. After his contract will expire, then we will know if he will be renewed or he will retire, it's just unfortunate that if he will not get renewed anymore, he cannot retire with SMB where he won multiple championships.

For sure Northport won't be able to renew his contract with the same amount or higher once it expires because his current contract makes him in the top 10 highest earners in the PBA. Number 5 in the list here - https://www.trendrr.net/10957/highest-paid-most-successful-pba-players-salary-famous-richest/

Arwin Santos is 40 years old now, he might only get a veterans contract after the current.

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Quote from: Fredomago on November 08, 2021, 08:19:57 AM

Quote from: mirakal on November 08, 2021, 02:58:48 AM

I guess this will be the end of Santos' career. Vic Manuel is a good steal for the SMB because he can work inside unlike Arwind who only shoots outside and doesn't do his low post game anymore. They really believe that TNT is a threat because TNT beat all the SMB corporation teams and they need to be better his new conference.

If the price is right santos is willing to move and accept that fate, who among us expect that Danny I who brings a lot of title to this company and he is not just a role player but the main man of the team, it's pretty normal to see players to go and be traded, the thing that I didn't expect is SMB will acquired Manuel who just traded from Phoenix.

I just looking for any good information but it's really a big surprise, with him, towering inside together with Tau and JMF will be the toughest core to dominate.

And with Terrence and CJ, it's a PH national against the PBA team. Grin

This is a trade, Santos has no choice but to accept it and play with Northport, I don't know when his contract will expire but at least he is required to play while his contract is still on and he has to play based on how he is expected to play. After his contract will expire, then we will know if he will be renewed or he will retire, it's just unfortunate that if he will not get renewed anymore, he cannot retire with SMB where he won multiple championships.

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Quote from: mirakal on November 08, 2021, 02:58:48 AM

I guess this will be the end of Santos' career. Vic Manuel is a good steal for the SMB because he can work inside unlike Arwind who only shoots outside and doesn't do his low post game anymore. They really believe that TNT is a threat because TNT beat all the SMB corporation teams and they need to be better his new conference.

If the price is right santos is willing to move and accept that fate, who among us expect that Danny I who brings a lot of title to this company and he is not just a role player but the main man of the team, it's pretty normal to see players to go and be traded, the thing that I didn't expect is SMB will acquired Manuel who just traded from Phoenix.

I just looking for any good information but it's really a big surprise, with him, towering inside together with Tau and JMF will be the toughest core to dominate.

And with Terrence and CJ, it's a PH national against the PBA team. Grin

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Quote from: mirakal on November 08, 2021, 02:58:48 AM

Quote from: bisdak40 on November 08, 2021, 02:22:53 AM

Quote from: LogitechMouse on November 08, 2021, 12:53:51 AM

Who expected this to happen? Arwind Santos going to NorthPort for Vic Manuel.
I just saw this on Snow Badua's Facebook Page and it seems that it is credible and true since it came from spin.ph

https://www.spin.ph/basketball/pba/pba-approves-arwind-santos-vic-manuel-trade-a793-20211108?ref=home_featured_big

After how many years in SMB and many championships that he got with the team, the SMB management decides to start getting new players and decided to broke their deadly starting 5. Well, there are some rumors already saying that Manuel will go to a SMC team and there are some saying that it will be Magnolia but I didn't really expect that he will end up in SMB. Now the SMB are stronger since we know that Manuel is really a strong player. He isn't called "Muscle Man" for nothing. The inside pressure of SMB is now stronger with him. Just imagine Manuel and Fajardo inside the court with their point guards like Perez, Romeo, Lassiter.

TBH after their performance last Filipino Cup, I already expect that some players from SMB will be traded to other teams because they are going old already and we all knew it. I just didn't expect that they will trade Arwind Santos. What's your takeaway with this?

The SMC group of companies are taking seriously this TNT threat, that's what I've read in an article.

I'm a little bit surprised as i don't expect Manuel to wear the SMB jersey as i thought that he would be reunited with Calvin Abueva in Alaska.

Vic Manuel doesn't automatically made SMB a stronger team, he has to adjust with his new teammates and i just don't know if he will still be effective if he has limited touches with the ball as he is will not be the go-to-guy in his new team.

I guess this will be the end of Santos' career. Vic Manuel is a good steal for the SMB because he can work inside unlike Arwind who only shoots outside and doesn't do his low post game anymore. They really believe that TNT is a threat because TNT beat all the SMB corporation teams and they need to be better his new conference.

Most probably because he is at his retirement age already, and he cannot boost anymore since he is not playing in the best team in the PBA. That's a lesson for Santos, let's how he'll work under coach Pido and how he'll be able to help the team to be better. Now, maybe we can tell that Northport is a farm team of SMB.

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Quote from: bisdak40 on November 08, 2021, 02:22:53 AM

Quote from: LogitechMouse on November 08, 2021, 12:53:51 AM

Who expected this to happen? Arwind Santos going to NorthPort for Vic Manuel.
I just saw this on Snow Badua's Facebook Page and it seems that it is credible and true since it came from spin.ph

https://www.spin.ph/basketball/pba/pba-approves-arwind-santos-vic-manuel-trade-a793-20211108?ref=home_featured_big

After how many years in SMB and many championships that he got with the team, the SMB management decides to start getting new players and decided to broke their deadly starting 5. Well, there are some rumors already saying that Manuel will go to a SMC team and there are some saying that it will be Magnolia but I didn't really expect that he will end up in SMB. Now the SMB are stronger since we know that Manuel is really a strong player. He isn't called "Muscle Man" for nothing. The inside pressure of SMB is now stronger with him. Just imagine Manuel and Fajardo inside the court with their point guards like Perez, Romeo, Lassiter.

TBH after their performance last Filipino Cup, I already expect that some players from SMB will be traded to other teams because they are going old already and we all knew it. I just didn't expect that they will trade Arwind Santos. What's your takeaway with this?

The SMC group of companies are taking seriously this TNT threat, that's what I've read in an article.

I'm a little bit surprised as i don't expect Manuel to wear the SMB jersey as i thought that he would be reunited with Calvin Abueva in Alaska.

Vic Manuel doesn't automatically made SMB a stronger team, he has to adjust with his new teammates and i just don't know if he will still be effective if he has limited touches with the ball as he is will not be the go-to-guy in his new team.

I guess this will be the end of Santos' career. Vic Manuel is a good steal for the SMB because he can work inside unlike Arwind who only shoots outside and doesn't do his low post game anymore. They really believe that TNT is a threat because TNT beat all the SMB corporation teams and they need to be better his new conference.

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Quote from: LogitechMouse on November 08, 2021, 12:53:51 AM

Who expected this to happen? Arwind Santos going to NorthPort for Vic Manuel.
I just saw this on Snow Badua's Facebook Page and it seems that it is credible and true since it came from spin.ph

https://www.spin.ph/basketball/pba/pba-approves-arwind-santos-vic-manuel-trade-a793-20211108?ref=home_featured_big

After how many years in SMB and many championships that he got with the team, the SMB management decides to start getting new players and decided to broke their deadly starting 5. Well, there are some rumors already saying that Manuel will go to a SMC team and there are some saying that it will be Magnolia but I didn't really expect that he will end up in SMB. Now the SMB are stronger since we know that Manuel is really a strong player. He isn't called "Muscle Man" for nothing. The inside pressure of SMB is now stronger with him. Just imagine Manuel and Fajardo inside the court with their point guards like Perez, Romeo, Lassiter.

TBH after their performance last Filipino Cup, I already expect that some players from SMB will be traded to other teams because they are going old already and we all knew it. I just didn't expect that they will trade Arwind Santos. What's your takeaway with this?

The SMC group of companies are taking seriously this TNT threat, that's what I've read in an article.

I'm a little bit surprised as i don't expect Manuel to wear the SMB jersey as i thought that he would be reunited with Calvin Abueva in Alaska.

Vic Manuel doesn't automatically made SMB a stronger team, he has to adjust with his new teammates and i just don't know if he will still be effective if he has limited touches with the ball as he is will not be the go-to-guy in his new team.

Topic: 2022–23 PBA Commissioner's Cup - page 435. (Read 101364 times)