2022–23 PBA Commissioner's Cup - page 451.

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Quote from: Kelvinid on October 13, 2021, 12:08:54 AM

Quote from: Fredomago on October 12, 2021, 06:04:09 PM

Quote from: bisdak40 on October 12, 2021, 04:59:43 PM

My bets for today:

Magnolia -3.5 @1.92 boosted
SMB ML @1.90

An SMC team is surely to take a seat in the finals, Magnolia is just too lethal for Meralco to take down for now. Almazan is not 100% percent healthy so he is not a big help to Meralco even if he will play, it will just aggravates his injury so better for him to rest.

SMB vs TNT series is just too hard to predict for me so i just bet using my heart this time as a Beermen fan Grin

. I'm okay though if TNT would take this series as for the fans to see another faces in the finals this time.

I see your point. Magnolia is very capable to take the first sit, unless they will careless like Clippers way back. But talent wise they really have a good edge against the opposing team, and just like what I have mentioned without Almazan The Pinatubo Bro will keep going inside, then here comes the guards of magnolia, If Lee will explode again this series will be finished, not far to happen Roll Eyes

SMB fan here too! Wink

I want to see them playing the same level as how they dominated TNT last game 4. If that happens, they will take the lead and have the greater chance of winning this series.

By way, how about the rigging stuff? Grin

kidding aside Good Luck !

Positive news for the Bolts.

Bolts get Almazan, Jackson, Jamito back in time for Game 5

Bolts look healthy again, they will be able to help their team in this elimination game, however, I think I would agree with bisdak40 as it's too late for them, they won't be 100% healthy and the Magnolia are still very healthy and a stronger team to defeat them.

It's positive news but I don't see it as big news that would change my view in game 5. I still think and believe that it will be the last game of Meralco in the series and Magnolia will win to take a rest. I doubt Magnolia would struggle to play the Bolts with 3 players back in the lineup, the most important person of the 3 is only Almazan, if he is not 100%, he will only be abuse inside as the Magnolia has a lot of bigs that are too aggressive.

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Quote from: Fredomago on October 12, 2021, 06:04:09 PM

Quote from: bisdak40 on October 12, 2021, 04:59:43 PM

My bets for today:

Magnolia -3.5 @1.92 boosted
SMB ML @1.90

An SMC team is surely to take a seat in the finals, Magnolia is just too lethal for Meralco to take down for now. Almazan is not 100% percent healthy so he is not a big help to Meralco even if he will play, it will just aggravates his injury so better for him to rest.

SMB vs TNT series is just too hard to predict for me so i just bet using my heart this time as a Beermen fan Grin

. I'm okay though if TNT would take this series as for the fans to see another faces in the finals this time.

I see your point. Magnolia is very capable to take the first sit, unless they will careless like Clippers way back. But talent wise they really have a good edge against the opposing team, and just like what I have mentioned without Almazan The Pinatubo Bro will keep going inside, then here comes the guards of magnolia, If Lee will explode again this series will be finished, not far to happen Roll Eyes

SMB fan here too! Wink

I want to see them playing the same level as how they dominated TNT last game 4. If that happens, they will take the lead and have the greater chance of winning this series.

By way, how about the rigging stuff? Grin

kidding aside Good Luck !

Positive news for the Bolts.

Bolts get Almazan, Jackson, Jamito back in time for Game 5

Bolts look healthy again, they will be able to help their team in this elimination game, however, I think I would agree with bisdak40 as it's too late for them, they won't be 100% healthy and the Magnolia are still very healthy and a stronger team to defeat them.

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Quote from: bisdak40 on October 12, 2021, 04:59:43 PM

My bets for today:

Magnolia -3.5 @1.92 boosted
SMB ML @1.90

An SMC team is surely to take a seat in the finals, Magnolia is just too lethal for Meralco to take down for now. Almazan is not 100% percent healthy so he is not a big help to Meralco even if he will play, it will just aggravates his injury so better for him to rest.

SMB vs TNT series is just too hard to predict for me so i just bet using my heart this time as a Beermen fan Grin

. I'm okay though if TNT would take this series as for the fans to see another faces in the finals this time.

I see your point. Magnolia is very capable to take the first sit, unless they will careless like Clippers way back. But talent wise they really have a good edge against the opposing team, and just like what I have mentioned without Almazan The Pinatubo Bro will keep going inside, then here comes the guards of magnolia, If Lee will explode again this series will be finished, not far to happen Roll Eyes

SMB fan here too! Wink

I want to see them playing the same level as how they dominated TNT last game 4. If that happens, they will take the lead and have the greater chance of winning this series.

By way, how about the rigging stuff? Grin

kidding aside Good Luck !

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My bets for today:

Magnolia -3.5 @1.92 boosted
SMB ML @1.90

An SMC team is surely to take a seat in the finals, Magnolia is just too lethal for Meralco to take down for now. Almazan is not 100% percent healthy so he is not a big help to Meralco even if he will play, it will just aggravates his injury so better for him to rest.

SMB vs TNT series is just too hard to predict for me so i just bet using my heart this time as a Beermen fan Grin

. I'm okay though if TNT would take this series as for the fans to see another faces in the finals this time.

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Quote from: Fredomago on October 12, 2021, 03:47:35 PM

Quote from: Sanitough on October 12, 2021, 08:39:06 AM

Quote from: Kelvinid on October 12, 2021, 07:48:49 AM

How about the Meralco vs Magnolia, aren't you guys talking about this?

Betting odds are also available, this is a close-out game for Magnolia and I think they will make sure the series will end tomorrow.
Hotshots is only -3.5 now, I think this is a gift as they won by huge margin in their last 3 wins.

I'd take Magnolia whatever the odds is, the main reason is the "closeout game", they have been dominating the Meralco since Almazan gets injured, so there's no reason for me to believe that Meralco will be able to come back in the series, even if Almazan will come back which I'm pretty sure not 100% yet.

More or less Magnolia will take care of this series. If Almazan is not there, the inner core of Magnolia will abuse everyone inside. I don't see any problem with Magnolia in finishing the Bolts, if they wanted to have a much better edge moving to the finals, completing the task from this series is the best thing to do, it will give them enough rest and fresh legs when the series between SMB and TNT ended, more or less it takes another 1 or 2 more games.

With odds like that and from the past results, it can be covered unless Meralco will push it harder to extend this series. We never know what are the possibilities.. Wink

The most important game for Magnolia, closeout game is the most important and they will try to make it possible because they want to rest early while waiting for the SMB vs TNT series. Everyone should consider betting on Magnolia today, they won't loss this game, they have been dominating the Meralco in this series, so with or without Almazan, I think the result would be the same.

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Quote from: Sanitough on October 12, 2021, 08:39:06 AM

Quote from: Kelvinid on October 12, 2021, 07:48:49 AM

How about the Meralco vs Magnolia, aren't you guys talking about this?

Betting odds are also available, this is a close-out game for Magnolia and I think they will make sure the series will end tomorrow.
Hotshots is only -3.5 now, I think this is a gift as they won by huge margin in their last 3 wins.

I'd take Magnolia whatever the odds is, the main reason is the "closeout game", they have been dominating the Meralco since Almazan gets injured, so there's no reason for me to believe that Meralco will be able to come back in the series, even if Almazan will come back which I'm pretty sure not 100% yet.

More or less Magnolia will take care of this series. If Almazan is not there, the inner core of Magnolia will abuse everyone inside. I don't see any problem with Magnolia in finishing the Bolts, if they wanted to have a much better edge moving to the finals, completing the task from this series is the best thing to do, it will give them enough rest and fresh legs when the series between SMB and TNT ended, more or less it takes another 1 or 2 more games.

With odds like that and from the past results, it can be covered unless Meralco will push it harder to extend this series. We never know what are the possibilities.. Wink

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Quote from: Kelvinid on October 12, 2021, 07:48:49 AM

How about the Meralco vs Magnolia, aren't you guys talking about this?

Betting odds are also available, this is a close-out game for Magnolia and I think they will make sure the series will end tomorrow.
Hotshots is only -3.5 now, I think this is a gift as they won by huge margin in their last 3 wins.

I'd take Magnolia whatever the odds is, the main reason is the "closeout game", they have been dominating the Meralco since Almazan gets injured, so there's no reason for me to believe that Meralco will be able to come back in the series, even if Almazan will come back which I'm pretty sure not 100% yet.

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Quote from: Maslate on October 12, 2021, 07:07:48 AM

Looks like Erram is unlikely to play in game 5.

The odds are out and SMB is currently -2.5 which we didn't see in the previous games that they have this kind of spread early.
I guess I would just wait for the game time and see if Erram is available, if he is out then probably I would not hesitate betting on the SMB but if he will play, then I would try to bet on the TNT hoping they'll win in game 5.

With that note, the chances of SMB winning them will be higher with Erram not playing in Game 5.
If I'm Coach Chot, I will not push Erram to play if he is unlikely to play because it might affect them the whole series especially that Williams might miss some games too (hope not).

If you are a bettor then just bet during the game and see if Erram will play or not

. On the other hand though, I'm not saying that if Erram will not play then SMB will win automatically. They still have these "kurimaws" that Coach Chot has been saying that can help the team. The bench of TNT is deep too.

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Quote from: Maslate on October 12, 2021, 07:39:03 AM

Quote from: carlisle1 on October 12, 2021, 07:22:24 AM

Quote from: Maslate on October 12, 2021, 07:07:48 AM

Looks like Erram is unlikely to play in game 5.

The odds are out and SMB is currently -2.5 which we didn't see in the previous games that they have this kind of spread early.
I guess I would just wait for the game time and see if Erram is available, if he is out then probably I would not hesitate betting on the SMB but if he will play, then I would try to bet on the TNT hoping they'll win in game 5.

If you are not sure about the news that spreads out, best to wait during the live game and bet when Erram is not there, but expect that the odd

will change a lot, this young center has a big impact on TNT, scoring and defending wise.

Yes, I would do that, the news says that Erram might have a fracture on his cheekbone but there's no official statement regarding his injury yet and since game 5 will be tomorrow, I would just wait, no need to hurry because I can still bet during a live game and I might be able to take a good odds if SMB will start strong again. Also, I'm looking forward to the TNT making an adjustment, so hopefully, I'll be able to see that in the first quarter.

How about the Meralco vs Magnolia, aren't you guys talking about this?

Betting odds are also available, this is a close-out game for Magnolia and I think they will make sure the series will end tomorrow.
Hotshots is only -3.5 now, I think this is a gift as they won by huge margin in their last 3 wins.

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Quote from: carlisle1 on October 12, 2021, 07:22:24 AM

Quote from: Maslate on October 12, 2021, 07:07:48 AM

Looks like Erram is unlikely to play in game 5.

The odds are out and SMB is currently -2.5 which we didn't see in the previous games that they have this kind of spread early.
I guess I would just wait for the game time and see if Erram is available, if he is out then probably I would not hesitate betting on the SMB but if he will play, then I would try to bet on the TNT hoping they'll win in game 5.

If you are not sure about the news that spreads out, best to wait during the live game and bet when Erram is not there, but expect that the odd

will change a lot, this young center has a big impact on TNT, scoring and defending wise.

Yes, I would do that, the news says that Erram might have a fracture on his cheekbone but there's no official statement regarding his injury yet and since game 5 will be tomorrow, I would just wait, no need to hurry because I can still bet during a live game and I might be able to take a good odds if SMB will start strong again. Also, I'm looking forward to the TNT making an adjustment, so hopefully, I'll be able to see that in the first quarter.

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Quote from: bisdak40 on October 11, 2021, 04:17:22 PM

Quote from: Viscore on October 11, 2021, 03:56:35 PM

These are just my personal view though, yes, they almost win in game 1 but it was still TNT who have a big lead early, SMB just had a big run in the 4th quarter and unfortunately, they were not able to complete it the win. In the 3rd quarter, the score was 19-29 TNT, while in the 4th quarter, 18-28 SMB. 10 point lead is not enough for them to beat the TNT and it's been always like that, SMB will have a big run usually in the last quarter like what they did in game 2 where they finally succeed to win.

If you guys noticed, it was Pogoy who carried TNT Katropa on the first three games, scoring 20+ points on each game while only managed to score a single bucket in the last game when SMB's defense clamped down on him so I think SMB would be now focused on stopping/limiting Pogoy for them to win the series. A lot of adjustments for SMB in game four that worked that gave them the big win so i think they will do the same in game 5.

On a side note, I do hope that Poy Erram is okay and could play in the next game. He was brought to the hospital for check up for that apparent head injury he sustain colliding with Mo.

I also wanted to point that up, Pogoy's numbers really affected as SMB adjusted defending him.

He's been challenged the whole night and not giving the open shots to give him confidence, if the same thing happens and SMB play the kind of game they
show up last game 4, it will be difficult for TNT to beat a team with high confidence.

Quote from: Maslate on October 12, 2021, 07:07:48 AM

Looks like Erram is unlikely to play in game 5.

The odds are out and SMB is currently -2.5 which we didn't see in the previous games that they have this kind of spread early.
I guess I would just wait for the game time and see if Erram is available, if he is out then probably I would not hesitate betting on the SMB but if he will play, then I would try to bet on the TNT hoping they'll win in game 5.

If you are not sure about the news that spreads out, best to wait during the live game and bet when Erram is not there, but expect that the odd

will change a lot, this young center has a big impact on TNT, scoring and defending wise.

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Looks like Erram is unlikely to play in game 5.

The odds are out and SMB is currently -2.5 which we didn't see in the previous games that they have this kind of spread early.
I guess I would just wait for the game time and see if Erram is available, if he is out then probably I would not hesitate betting on the SMB but if he will play, then I would try to bet on the TNT hoping they'll win in game 5.

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Quote from: Viscore on October 11, 2021, 04:40:23 PM

Quote from: bisdak40 on October 11, 2021, 04:17:22 PM

Quote from: Viscore on October 11, 2021, 03:56:35 PM

These are just my personal view though, yes, they almost win in game 1 but it was still TNT who have a big lead early, SMB just had a big run in the 4th quarter and unfortunately, they were not able to complete it the win. In the 3rd quarter, the score was 19-29 TNT, while in the 4th quarter, 18-28 SMB. 10 point lead is not enough for them to beat the TNT and it's been always like that, SMB will have a big run usually in the last quarter like what they did in game 2 where they finally succeed to win.

If you guys noticed, it was Pogoy who carried TNT Katropa on the first three games, scoring 20+ points on each game while only managed to score a single bucket in the last game when SMB's defense clamped down on him so I think SMB would be now focused on stopping/limiting Pogoy for them to win the series. A lot of adjustments for SMB in game four that worked that gave them the big win so i think they will do the same in game 5.

On a side note, I do hope that Poy Erram is okay and could play in the next game. He was brought to the hospital for check up for that apparent head injury he sustain colliding with Mo.

Pogoy was the most consistent scorer in the lineup, he should heat up again in game 5 so the TNT could take the lead in the series. Poy Erram as well is contributing 20 points or more for the team but last game he was only held up to 3 points. As for the latest news, Erram is doubtful in game 5, so this is a big problem for TNT as they will miss a big man who can score on Fajardo.

Injured TNT big man Poy Erram uncertain for Game 5

Quote

Poy Erram’s status for Game 5 of the PBA Philippine Cup semifinals between TNT and San Miguel Beer remains uncertain due to a suspected fracture on his cheekbone.

I don't know if what Mo did to Erram is the reason why he got injured but it seems that it is. Either way, his absence will affect the team that much.
With him out for Game 5 (if he will), the TNT will rely mostly on Troy, Dave "Gwapo" Marcelo and Khobuntin which isn't that big compare to JMF and Tautuaa. The good news though is that, Williams might return earliest in Game 5 says Coach Chot: LINK

Quote

“I think the earliest possible is Game 5. That’s the earliest possible, but still it’s not a guarantee,” according to TnT coach Chot Reyes.

Erram is the best defender for Fajardo no doubt so his absence will be felt by the team especially on the paint but him being absent doesn't mean that they have no match for SMB. I don't think though that he will be 100% healthy in Game 5 if he manages to play. I just hope that Williams will really come back on Game 5.

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Quote from: bisdak40 on October 11, 2021, 04:17:22 PM

Quote from: Viscore on October 11, 2021, 03:56:35 PM

These are just my personal view though, yes, they almost win in game 1 but it was still TNT who have a big lead early, SMB just had a big run in the 4th quarter and unfortunately, they were not able to complete it the win. In the 3rd quarter, the score was 19-29 TNT, while in the 4th quarter, 18-28 SMB. 10 point lead is not enough for them to beat the TNT and it's been always like that, SMB will have a big run usually in the last quarter like what they did in game 2 where they finally succeed to win.

If you guys noticed, it was Pogoy who carried TNT Katropa on the first three games, scoring 20+ points on each game while only managed to score a single bucket in the last game when SMB's defense clamped down on him so I think SMB would be now focused on stopping/limiting Pogoy for them to win the series. A lot of adjustments for SMB in game four that worked that gave them the big win so i think they will do the same in game 5.

On a side note, I do hope that Poy Erram is okay and could play in the next game. He was brought to the hospital for check up for that apparent head injury he sustain colliding with Mo.

Pogoy was the most consistent scorer in the lineup, he should heat up again in game 5 so the TNT could take the lead in the series. Poy Erram as well is contributing 20 points or more for the team but last game he was only held up to 3 points. As for the latest news, Erram is doubtful in game 5, so this is a big problem for TNT as they will miss a big man who can score on Fajardo.

Injured TNT big man Poy Erram uncertain for Game 5

Quote

Poy Erram’s status for Game 5 of the PBA Philippine Cup semifinals between TNT and San Miguel Beer remains uncertain due to a suspected fracture on his cheekbone.

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Quote from: Viscore on October 11, 2021, 03:56:35 PM

These are just my personal view though, yes, they almost win in game 1 but it was still TNT who have a big lead early, SMB just had a big run in the 4th quarter and unfortunately, they were not able to complete it the win. In the 3rd quarter, the score was 19-29 TNT, while in the 4th quarter, 18-28 SMB. 10 point lead is not enough for them to beat the TNT and it's been always like that, SMB will have a big run usually in the last quarter like what they did in game 2 where they finally succeed to win.

If you guys noticed, it was Pogoy who carried TNT Katropa on the first three games, scoring 20+ points on each game while only managed to score a single bucket in the last game when SMB's defense clamped down on him so I think SMB would be now focused on stopping/limiting Pogoy for them to win the series. A lot of adjustments for SMB in game four that worked that gave them the big win so i think they will do the same in game 5.

On a side note, I do hope that Poy Erram is okay and could play in the next game. He was brought to the hospital for check up for that apparent head injury he sustain colliding with Mo.

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Quote from: Fredomago on October 11, 2021, 12:11:53 PM

Quote from: Viscore on October 11, 2021, 02:24:31 AM

I doubt Tautua would do the same contribution he did in game 4, things will be different in game 5, TNT will be more aggressive with their defense and they will once again impose their effective strategy against SMB. As far as this series goes, I only see one game where SMB really dominate, the other 3 games, it was TNT who were dominating but sometimes they are careless which resulted to a heartbreaking loss.

I don't think so, SMB almost snatches the game 1 and fulfills it in game 2, only game 3 where TNT dominates the game and after that we see adjustments that being done from SMB camp. All star SMB shows what domination is. If you have those kinds of players who really work on both sides, you don't need anyone to single-handed the game; I agree with you that Tau may not be able to play the same hype, but don't forget that Perez also has cheat mode, so with Romeo and Fajardo.

Those are the names who can really produce double digits, while the best backups are there, Cabagnot, Lassiter and Ross, who can also bring numbers. Once everyone blends well, expect to see another domination from SMB.

Though we can't tell if they will play that level again, just wait when they meet again, no further update with the game schedule as of checking from PBA official site.

These are just my personal view though, yes, they almost win in game 1 but it was still TNT who have a big lead early, SMB just had a big run in the 4th quarter and unfortunately, they were not able to complete it the win. In the 3rd quarter, the score was 19-29 TNT, while in the 4th quarter, 18-28 SMB. 10 point lead is not enough for them to beat the TNT and it's been always like that, SMB will have a big run usually in the last quarter like what they did in game 2 where they finally succeed to win.

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Quote from: Viscore on October 11, 2021, 02:24:31 AM

I doubt Tautua would do the same contribution he did in game 4, things will be different in game 5, TNT will be more aggressive with their defense and they will once again impose their effective strategy against SMB. As far as this series goes, I only see one game where SMB really dominate, the other 3 games, it was TNT who were dominating but sometimes they are careless which resulted to a heartbreaking loss.

I don't think so, SMB almost snatches the game 1 and fulfills it in game 2, only game 3 where TNT dominates the game and after that we see adjustments that being done from SMB camp. All star SMB shows what domination is. If you have those kinds of players who really work on both sides, you don't need anyone to single-handed the game; I agree with you that Tau may not be able to play the same hype, but don't forget that Perez also has cheat mode, so with Romeo and Fajardo.

Those are the names who can really produce double digits, while the best backups are there, Cabagnot, Lassiter and Ross, who can also bring numbers. Once everyone blends well, expect to see another domination from SMB.

Though we can't tell if they will play that level again, just wait when they meet again, no further update with the game schedule as of checking from PBA official site.

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Quote from: carlisle1 on October 11, 2021, 11:39:00 AM

Quote from: Maslate on October 11, 2021, 11:16:59 AM

SMB would not rely on one player only, in their last win, it was Romeo who exploded, now it's Tautua, so they are really unpredictable here. Just make game 3 as a basis, who would have expected that after a bad loss in game 3 where they got dominated by the TNT they bounce back by winning a huge margin, I think a lot of bettors were putting their money on the TNT to win in game 4, but like I said, SMB was very unpredictable.

Or maybe the game was rigged? Kidding aside, we really don't know what SMB players will come up in their next meeting.

After that loss in game 3, most bettors sided with TNT. We witness how they dominated the game, but likewise,
SMB bounced back and tied the series with the same domination. We don't know now if who's really has the
edge both teams are doing their best.

It's really more entertaining if this semis happens to be the finals, more money will flow right?

It could be rigged but it's just speculation, no one can prove it is.

What's important is the series is now more exciting as we might see a game 7 of this series.
TNT had a very good start but they allow the SMB to even the series, now let's see what's their adjustment in game 5.

Game 5 will be this Wednesday I guess, that's why I still could not see the betting odds yet.

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Quote from: Maslate on October 11, 2021, 11:16:59 AM

SMB would not rely on one player only, in their last win, it was Romeo who exploded, now it's Tautua, so they are really unpredictable here. Just make game 3 as a basis, who would have expected that after a bad loss in game 3 where they got dominated by the TNT they bounce back by winning a huge margin, I think a lot of bettors were putting their money on the TNT to win in game 4, but like I said, SMB was very unpredictable.

Or maybe the game was rigged? Kidding aside, we really don't know what SMB players will come up in their next meeting.

After that loss in game 3, most bettors sided with TNT. We witness how they dominated the game, but likewise,
SMB bounced back and tied the series with the same domination. We don't know now if who's really has the
edge both teams are doing their best.

It's really more entertaining if this semis happens to be the finals, more money will flow right?

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Quote from: Viscore on October 11, 2021, 02:24:31 AM

Quote from: Fredomago on October 11, 2021, 02:13:37 AM

Quote from: mirakal on October 11, 2021, 01:43:55 AM

I'm sure TNT will adjust in game 5 as they want to win that game. It's really a bad loss for them, their worst so far this conference but I'm sure it will not happen anymore. Maybe TNT has a some hangover on how they were able to dominate the SMB in game 3, but bounce back is real, SMB just do what they should and that is killing TNT in game 4.

Tonight, the line would be available and I think SMB will be listed as slight favorite only.

I agree Kabayan! TNT will adjust, Coach Chot expect the kind of adjustment SMB will give them after that win last game 3, see all the veterans with extended minutes inside, that's the SMB we used to love they are all there to lift each other and to play together.
Now it's time for Chot Reyes to do his job, same deal with Leo Austria. Not everything is in the hands of the players, but coaches' design plays are very important.

We might expect TNT to counter and not to allow SMB to bully them with that tight defense. They've got the talent and they know that somehow they can match everything. They just need to prepare harder.

Aggressiveness with control, Players wise both teams have a winning combo not undersize or lack of talents if advantages, both deserve the win.

I doubt Tautua would do the same contribution he did in game 4, things will be different in game 5, TNT will be more aggressive with their defense and they will once again impose their effective strategy against SMB. As far as this series goes, I only see one game where SMB really dominate, the other 3 games, it was TNT who were dominating but sometimes they are careless which resulted to a heartbreaking loss.

SMB would not rely on one player only, in their last win, it was Romeo who exploded, now it's Tautua, so they are really unpredictable here. Just make game 3 as a basis, who would have expected that after a bad loss in game 3 where they got dominated by the TNT they bounce back by winning a huge margin, I think a lot of bettors were putting their money on the TNT to win in game 4, but like I said, SMB was very unpredictable.

Topic: 2022–23 PBA Commissioner's Cup - page 451. (Read 101364 times)