America's new debt ceiling - $19,600,000,000,000 - page 5.

Kprawn

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Not a lot of people can buy houses with cash these days.. Roll Eyes

According to this article --> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/13/median-home-price-2014_n_4957604.html

...the median house price in the USA are $188,900 and I should say, a huge part of that debt goes towards housing and bond payments. This will always remain a big problem with

house prices being that high. How much of that debt are being paid by rental income or businesses generating jobs and paying salaries? Not all debt, is bad debt. Wink

Your 60" UHD 3D television bought on credit, generate zero income... that is bad debt in my opinion. Roll Eyes

markj113

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Quote from: erickimani on November 17, 2015, 12:19:08 PM

its a pity. The bad thing is that whenever there is a crisis in a certain country or they need some donations, America is usually the first to give grants in billions. I didn't know they are that deep in debt. Soon the American dollar will collapse and be overtaken by other currencies such as the euro and above all the might BITCOIN. watch the pace

Amazed people still are unware of how much debt the West is in.

Check out the realtime US debt clock -

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

A real eye opener Shocked

Just under $58,000 debt for every man woman and child and $156,000 debt for every tax payer.

BillyBobZorton

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Quote from: erickimani on November 17, 2015, 12:19:08 PM

its a pity. The bad thing is that whenever there is a crisis in a certain country or they need some donations, America is usually the first to give grants in billions. I didn't know they are that deep in debt. Soon the American dollar will collapse and be overtaken by other currencies such as the euro and above all the might BITCOIN. watch the pace

The Euro? I don't think so, the Euro is screwed up too... if the dollar crashes, the Euro is not going to survive. Similarly, if the Euro crashes, the dollar just can't survive like nothing happened. It only takes 1 big currency to fail to start a devastating domino effect and all of them are on the edge.

erickimani

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its a pity. The bad thing is that whenever there is a crisis in a certain country or they need some donations, America is usually the first to give grants in billions. I didn't know they are that deep in debt. Soon the American dollar will collapse and be overtaken by other currencies such as the euro and above all the might BITCOIN. watch the pace

RealBitcoin

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Quote from: markj113 on November 17, 2015, 09:36:16 AM

And China will care because?

China has an ambition to to kill off the US petrol dollar/reserve currency and replace it with their own.

They are accululating tonnes of gold every month with the possibility of launching a gold back currency, like every reserve currency before the dollar sooner or later the US's turn will come to end.

Well they invested billions in the US and havent got anything but crappy low interest on it. If they cant recover their capital they will be angry.

However it might not affect their economy, but it will their diplomacy.

If China would sell all their US bonds that could collapse the US economy, but I dont think China wants that, after all they do exports to the US.

So they have a strange relation, they both hate eachother, but they both depend on eachother.

markj113

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Quote from: RealBitcoin on November 17, 2015, 09:34:28 AM

Quote from: markj113 on November 17, 2015, 09:31:58 AM

Quote from: Xeelee on November 17, 2015, 09:26:49 AM

The will lift this to $20,000,000,000,000 or $21,000,000,000,000 very quick as usual.

A lot of noise but there will be no impact. This is now going on since some years and there was no effect at all (despite higher debt levels of course)

Until a few of the lenders want payment.

The current situation cannot carry on indefinitely and sooner or later the house of cards will fall.

Like china ? They do hold alot of US debt, and if they demand payment and US cant pay, it will put extra tensions between them. They already have big tensions between them.

But the normal bond investor will definitely be wiped out (so pensions, savings accounts, and other low risk investments will be wiped out)

And China will care because?

China has an ambition to to kill off the US petrol dollar/reserve currency and replace it with their own.

They are accululating tonnes of gold every month with the possibility of launching a gold back currency, like every reserve currency before the dollar sooner or later the US's turn will come to end.

RealBitcoin

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Quote from: markj113 on November 17, 2015, 09:31:58 AM

Quote from: Xeelee on November 17, 2015, 09:26:49 AM

The will lift this to $20,000,000,000,000 or $21,000,000,000,000 very quick as usual.

A lot of noise but there will be no impact. This is now going on since some years and there was no effect at all (despite higher debt levels of course)

Until a few of the lenders want payment.

The current situation cannot carry on indefinitely and sooner or later the house of cards will fall.

Like china ? They do hold alot of US debt, and if they demand payment and US cant pay, it will put extra tensions between them. They already have big tensions between them.

But the normal bond investor will definitely be wiped out (so pensions, savings accounts, and other low risk investments will be wiped out)

markj113

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Quote from: Xeelee on November 17, 2015, 09:26:49 AM

The will lift this to $20,000,000,000,000 or $21,000,000,000,000 very quick as usual.

A lot of noise but there will be no impact. This is now going on since some years and there was no effect at all (despite higher debt levels of course)

Until a few of the lenders want payment.

The current situation cannot carry on indefinitely and sooner or later the house of cards will fall.

Expect bank accounts, any investments and pension to be wiped out.

Dont keep large sums of money in banks, hold cash, precious metals, bitcoin etc.

RealBitcoin

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Quote from: Xeelee on November 17, 2015, 09:26:49 AM

The will lift this to $20,000,000,000,000 or $21,000,000,000,000 very quick as usual.

A lot of noise but there will be no impact. This is now going on since some years and there was no effect at all (despite higher debt levels of course)

Remember the last crisis almost wiped out all banks, and it was only the FED's quick intervention that saved them.

The next crisis will be the big one. Which could come as early as next spring, or after US elections (as no politician wants crisis on their election day)

Xeelee

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The will lift this to $20,000,000,000,000 or $21,000,000,000,000 very quick as usual.

A lot of noise but there will be no impact. This is now going on since some years and there was no effect at all (despite higher debt levels of course)

USB-S

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In XEM we trust

Quote from: OrientA on November 16, 2015, 09:33:52 PM

Quote from: USB-S on November 16, 2015, 08:50:11 PM

Quote from: elDano on November 16, 2015, 07:45:19 PM

Quote from: HighPixelr on November 15, 2015, 09:59:28 PM

By 2140, no more Bitcoins will be created so people will probably move on to other crypto currencies.

This sounds consufing.

You mean miners move on to other crypto currencies, since they have too or people (speculators) etc.?

Fees will most likely be miners incomes, since block reward would be so low.
I think that bitcoin would still be as profitable as it is today. it takes just one big bitcoin farm to 51% attack a sha-256 altcoin. So they will most likely move on to new algorithm. Most likely my bet would be that PoW coins will be superior only to some point in the future. Beyond that point PoS or other methods would be far more superior.

At present, PoW is the most fair and efficient way to distribute the coin for long time. In PoS coin, the coins are distributed in one go (ICO) or very short period. So it is unfair to later comers as the only way they can get the coin is to buy. For the PoW coins, you can buy/rent rigs to mine. You can also buy cloud mining service.

What about clams, they were distributed to every doge lite and bitcoin owner. And as for other PoS coins like nxt for example has better distribution than bitcoin already. PoS coins are poorly distributed at the beginning(except for clam, which had a pretty good distribution early), but they should be pretty evenly distributed in 3-4 years time if there is an active community behind the coin. imo there are currently 2 good well distributed coins out there. One is clam and other one is nxt.

OrientA

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Quote from: USB-S on November 16, 2015, 08:50:11 PM

Quote from: elDano on November 16, 2015, 07:45:19 PM

Quote from: HighPixelr on November 15, 2015, 09:59:28 PM

By 2140, no more Bitcoins will be created so people will probably move on to other crypto currencies.

This sounds consufing.

You mean miners move on to other crypto currencies, since they have too or people (speculators) etc.?

Fees will most likely be miners incomes, since block reward would be so low.
I think that bitcoin would still be as profitable as it is today. it takes just one big bitcoin farm to 51% attack a sha-256 altcoin. So they will most likely move on to new algorithm. Most likely my bet would be that PoW coins will be superior only to some point in the future. Beyond that point PoS or other methods would be far more superior.

At present, PoW is the most fair and efficient way to distribute the coin for long time. In PoS coin, the coins are distributed in one go (ICO) or very short period. So it is unfair to later comers as the only way they can get the coin is to buy. For the PoW coins, you can buy/rent rigs to mine. You can also buy cloud mining service.

USB-S

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In XEM we trust

Quote from: elDano on November 16, 2015, 07:45:19 PM

Quote from: HighPixelr on November 15, 2015, 09:59:28 PM

By 2140, no more Bitcoins will be created so people will probably move on to other crypto currencies.

This sounds consufing.

You mean miners move on to other crypto currencies, since they have too or people (speculators) etc.?

Fees will most likely be miners incomes, since block reward would be so low.
I think that bitcoin would still be as profitable as it is today. it takes just one big bitcoin farm to 51% attack a sha-256 altcoin. So they will most likely move on to new algorithm. Most likely my bet would be that PoW coins will be superior only to some point in the future. Beyond that point PoS or other methods would be far more superior.

elDano

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Quote from: HighPixelr on November 15, 2015, 09:59:28 PM

By 2140, no more Bitcoins will be created so people will probably move on to other crypto currencies.

This sounds consufing.

You mean miners move on to other crypto currencies, since they have too or people (speculators) etc.?

RealBitcoin

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Quote from: jaysabi on November 15, 2015, 10:49:42 AM

I think I better understand what you were saying now. As long as bitcoins are being minted at a high rate (as opposed to the later phases where blocks will be fractions of a bitcoin), any losses due to locked addresses will be extremely insignificant compared to inflation. So yes, presently, it's negligible.

Yep, there are 3600 bitcoin minted every day, and how many people lose their private key? 1-2? With usually less than 1 btc on each address.

Thats nowhere near that amount. Usually people store their bitcoin on multiple addresses. Unless Bitfinex or Kraken loses their key, I can hardly see your scenario relevant until the next 10-15 years.

HighPixelr

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By 2140, no more Bitcoins will be created so people will probably move on to other crypto currencies.

BTChaintrader

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Quote from: BillyBobZorton on November 14, 2015, 11:01:18 AM

Bitcoin is ultimately deflationary. After 2140 it is 100% deflationary because no new coins will ever be created, and the supply will keep naturally shrinking as people make mistakes and lose them (I doubt anyone will be willing to burn Bitcoins because by then 1 Bitcoin will be worth several billion dollars).

The price of Bitcoin will increase and goods will get cheaper. Don't forget the fact that you can divide Bitcoin into many decimals.

So problem solved.

jaysabi

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Quote from: RealBitcoin on November 11, 2015, 12:04:38 AM

Quote from: jaysabi on November 10, 2015, 09:44:47 PM

Not hard to prove, it's mathematically certain unless you're taking the unreasonable position that no fraction of a bitcoin will ever be lost after the minting phase of bitcoin is complete. It's already happened, and will continue to happen. Once the last bitcoin is minted, that's not "shrinking money velocity" (that term doesn't even mean anything, but I assume you mean decelerating inflation), that's deflation, which is falling prices (often) caused by a shrinking money supply.

I know that a permalock is possible, I`m not denyit it. And I know that eventually, all bitcoins will be locked (if the lock is irreversible, then probability tells us that in infinity all bitcoin will be locked)

However I`m talking about now, and how can it be definitively proven that an address is really locked or not. It can't.

So the only way to measure this is from the money velocity viewpoint, by looking at the transaction volume daily, and you will see that it will shrink eventually.

I think I better understand what you were saying now. As long as bitcoins are being minted at a high rate (as opposed to the later phases where blocks will be fractions of a bitcoin), any losses due to locked addresses will be extremely insignificant compared to inflation. So yes, presently, it's negligible.

BillyBobZorton

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Bitcoin is ultimately deflationary. After 2140 it is 100% deflationary because no new coins will ever be created, and the supply will keep naturally shrinking as people make mistakes and lose them (I doubt anyone will be willing to burn Bitcoins because by then 1 Bitcoin will be worth several billion dollars).

DiamondCardz

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Quote from: HighPixelr on November 13, 2015, 06:28:04 PM

This is one of the reasons why I hate modern currency.
Every dollar that exists is owed to someone.

Yes, technically the US dollar is a debt, but in reality when it comes to the physical money in circulation the line between money and a debt instrument is quite blurred. It's quite true with most other things, but not all modern currency is debt. Don't get me wrong, it's still a massive flaw with fiat currency and something Bitcoin handles much better, but let's not make a massive generalisation here. If I give you a gold coin worth 5 USD it's still modern currency worth US dollars but I doubt you would hate it.

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