America's new debt ceiling - $19,600,000,000,000 - page 8.

RealBitcoin

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Quote from: uki on November 03, 2015, 06:33:34 AM

Quote from: markj113 on November 03, 2015, 06:13:55 AM

Doesnt that lead to hyper inflation eventually though?

As long as you have enough military force to back the status of your printed paper with the 'trust' of the creditors you are on the safe side.
That is, at least to my understanding, what the US have been performing so far with the US dollar.
At one stage, it may be very easy to get the things out of control, which may lead to hyperinflation among other problems.

Yes but they are losing ground in the middle east.

Plus the debt is going exponential, they cant afford another 1 trillion $ operation like the previous wars, so a civil war or some sort of civil unrest is more likely.

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Quote from: markj113 on November 03, 2015, 06:13:55 AM

Doesnt that lead to hyper inflation eventually though?

As long as you have enough military force to back the status of your printed paper with the 'trust' of the creditors you are on the safe side.
That is, at least to my understanding, what the US have been performing so far with the US dollar.
At one stage, it may be very easy to get the things out of control, which may lead to hyperinflation among other problems.

markj113

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Doesnt that lead to hyper inflation eventually though?

jubalix

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I dont quite grok the politcs of it,

however, debt is sort of immaterial in a fiat system as 0's are free to add.

eg 100

1000
10000000

10000000000000000000000000

etc.

The US can print its way out of anything. (by print I also me issue debt instruments etc)

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Quote from: 1990BEARS on November 03, 2015, 12:47:43 AM

i think as we see debt increase we see bitcoin price increase
faith being lost in usd bad value, i think it time to bring in the big bitcoin gun Wink

The debt will increase at faster rates though than the bitcoin price.

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i think as we see debt increase we see bitcoin price increase
faith being lost in usd bad value, i think it time to bring in the big bitcoin gun Wink

RealBitcoin

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Quote from: Harry Hood on November 02, 2015, 06:24:54 PM

Not to worry!

The US Gov is hodling the bitcoin confiscated from Dread Pirate Roberts so a few more months of price appreciation and the debt should be easy to payoff, debt snowball style!

They already auctioned that, but who knows maybe they will introduce tax payments with bitcoin.

Then they will HODL that, and as the US debt grows, so does the bitcoin price, they will use that as a hedging mechanism to cancel the debt Cheesy

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Quote from: spazzdla on November 02, 2015, 03:47:39 PM

Alas.. America will 1000% start WW3 if their ecom starts to falter.. they are already setting up for it in the south sea.
Nothing gets the ecom going like taking out an extra 100 TRILLION on the backs of the next 100 generations to fuel your wars that are really just a solid reason to take out 100 Trillion..

Haha, starting a war would not remove the debt that exists.

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Not to worry!

The US Gov is hodling the bitcoin confiscated from Dread Pirate Roberts so a few more months of price appreciation and the debt should be easy to payoff, debt snowball style!

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Quote from: spazzdla on November 02, 2015, 03:47:39 PM

Alas.. America will 1000% start WW3 if their ecom starts to falter.. they are already setting up for it in the south sea.
Nothing gets the ecom going like taking out an extra 100 TRILLION on the backs of the next 100 generations to fuel your wars that are really just a solid reason to take out 100 Trillion..

Well a war doesnt really boost an economy, especially if you lose it.

A war is only profitable if you loot the enemy country and then after peace negitiations you demand war reparations.

To my knowledge a war of aggression is illegal under international law, so they cannot demand any reparations, unless they conquer the entire planet, which is very unlikely.

A civil war or mass unrest is far more likely than a WW3. But thats just my opinion.

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Alas.. America will 1000% start WW3 if their ecom starts to falter.. they are already setting up for it in the south sea.
Nothing gets the ecom going like taking out an extra 100 TRILLION on the backs of the next 100 generations to fuel your wars that are really just a solid reason to take out 100 Trillion..

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Quote from: OrientA on November 02, 2015, 11:20:02 AM

You shuld not be liable for the past 200 year old pensioners pensions, but you have to pay for them. It is determined by the government, it is very powerful.

But most of these young people wont enjoy pensions:

Either they will die before pension (global meltdown, starvation , WW3)
Or there will be no pension funds by then.

Either way we look for a bad future ahead.

unless there is a real revolution and Bitcoin is part of it.
The revolution changes the way wealth is distributed and that is usually very violent but also interesting time (if you are lucky enough to survive).
So I would say, interesting times are ahead of us!

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Quote from: OROBTC on October 30, 2015, 02:18:11 PM

Quote from: neurotypical on October 30, 2015, 01:39:41 PM

Bitcoin is the only way that we can have a global form of money that's up to date with current's standards in technology and that is bullet proof again the evils of hyperinflation which assume resources are infinite. Bitcoin promotes saving and frugality instead of mindless consumption because you value your money way more than filthy fiat.

Well, I like BTC a lot, but I am very much into diversification re protecting my financial butt. We really do not know how BTC will react to a hyperinflationary environment (nor in a deflationary environment either). So, I would hold some gold as well as even CA$H (the long green stuff, NOT electrons in the bank).

How much of each of BTC, gold and CA$H? Depends on your own circumstances and views of possible economic scenarios.

But, a denouement is coming... The 19.6 trillion national debt (way understating total debts) is not payable, and WILL be defaulted on, one way or another.

Diversification in both Bitcoin and gold is a good idea, but im not sure about cash. At first when I saw all those supposed rumors about cash disappearing and how governments worldwide had a secret agenda to make it gone within the next decades I would usually laugh and call it an Alex Jones type of tinfoil hat conspiracy, but it seems this is a very real possibility. Im honestly giving cash less and less relevancy on my portfolio and Bitcoin and Gold are looking like the ultimate safe havens.

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Quote from: Lover of Coin on October 31, 2015, 04:35:15 PM

It is sad the hyperinflation is the only way to reduce the burden of debt. When bitcoin is widely adopted, the government cannot issue debt by printing the paper. Maybe there will be fewer debt problems.

There willbe debt with bitcoin too, but it will be contained to the debtor.

I will not be liable for the past 200 year old pensioners pensions, that have been borrowed from the futurre. Why should I pay for people that lived 200 years ago and took loans wrecklessly?

Why should I pay for pensioners that live today that want big pensions, leaving no jobs for the young people, and making sure that young people wont live to their age (as WW3 can break out anytime).

Fucking greedy socialists. And they say that the capitalist is the greedy.

You shuld not be liable for the past 200 year old pensioners pensions, but you have to pay for them. It is determined by the government, it is very powerful.

uki

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Quote from: RealBitcoin on November 01, 2015, 01:57:16 PM

Quote from: uki on November 01, 2015, 11:06:07 AM

Let me disagree on these last sentences.
Not sure which evil is worse, but the powers that run the current capitalist-based system (banksters) do not do it for charity. It is actually because of their greed that the fiat based Keynesian system will break so fast.

The current system is not capitalist, its a corporatocracy, where powers concentrated in a few hands (non competitive) due to printed money.

Capitalism is based on competition, not on printed money monopolies.

sure, agree. but for the same reason we don't have capitalism in pure form, we didn't/don't have socialism in pure one either. That is why the distribution of the money fails.

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So we know the debt in 2009, we know the debt in 2017, and we know it matches an exponential function and has done so ever since the sudden change the graph shows in 1974, a strange coincidence, I think not.

Knowing that it doubled in 8 years I still have trouble getting my head around the idea that it will double again in 8 more years, even though it has roughly done that for the past 40 years, it really is sobering

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Quote from: uki on November 01, 2015, 11:06:07 AM

Let me disagree on these last sentences.
Not sure which evil is worse, but the powers that run the current capitalist-based system (banksters) do not do it for charity. It is actually because of their greed that the fiat based Keynesian system will break so fast.

The current system is not capitalist, its a corporatocracy, where powers concentrated in a few hands (non competitive) due to printed money.

Capitalism is based on competition, not on printed money monopolies.

uki

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Quote from: Lover of Coin on October 31, 2015, 04:35:15 PM

It is sad the hyperinflation is the only way to reduce the burden of debt. When bitcoin is widely adopted, the government cannot issue debt by printing the paper. Maybe there will be fewer debt problems.

There willbe debt with bitcoin too, but it will be contained to the debtor.

I will not be liable for the past 200 year old pensioners pensions, that have been borrowed from the futurre. Why should I pay for people that lived 200 years ago and took loans wrecklessly?

Why should I pay for pensioners that live today that want big pensions, leaving no jobs for the young people, and making sure that young people wont live to their age (as WW3 can break out anytime).

Fucking greedy socialists. And they say that the capitalist is the greedy.

Let me disagree on these last sentences.
Not sure which evil is worse, but the powers that run the current capitalist-based system (banksters) do not do it for charity. It is actually because of their greed that the fiat based Keynesian system will break so fast.

uki

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Quote from: StevenLiang on October 30, 2015, 07:32:31 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: uki on October 30, 2015, 09:42:12 AM

yes, we agree that this type of game is a clearly Ponzi scheme, there is no discrepancy in our posts. The Keynesian economy is based on the assumption of the unending growth as a remedy for everything, and thus the need for creating it artificially leads to what FED does - money printing.
Each government can do that on the smaller or bigger scale, the impact of FED printing press is by far the biggest, due to the dominant position of US economy.

Keynesianism relies on the fact that the economy can outgrow debt, which is silly.

It is silly because the GDP grows linearly, but the debt grows geometrically or even exponentially, thus it is by definition a ponzi scheme by design.

There is no doubt about that.

If you design a 1000$ ponzi scheme, you go to jail. If you design a 1000 billion $ ponzi scheme, you get nobel prize in economics

Not so sure about that, some of "government people" will prevent any of ponzi scheme (either with design or not) I know all country have their own currency and print out their fiat money selves. But economy is not simply as print money out.
One thing that makes bitcoin acceptable and spread worldwide, "Bitcoin is a digital currency (also called crypto-currency) that is not backed by any country's central bank or government."

well, unfortunately the reality of the US economy looks exactly like a Ponzi scheme, since early 70s, that is since fully moving to the fiat-only standard.
Believe it or not, but there is too much on stake to stop playing this game. The recent years, with Quantitative Easing (QE) programmes show exactly what I wrote. The economy now is about how controls the printing press. That is at least what happens in the fiat domain.

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Quote from: RealBitcoin on October 31, 2015, 11:00:18 AM

Quote from: OrientA on October 31, 2015, 10:35:44 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Keynesianism relies on the fact that the economy can outgrow debt, which is silly.

It is silly because the GDP grows linearly, but the debt grows geometrically or even exponentially, thus it is by definition a ponzi scheme by design.

There is some truth in the above assertion. The interest for loan is always higher than the interest on savings. So debt will grow faster.

Thats not what I meant.

There is 2 sides: GDP & Debt.

You create debt easily with the push of 1 button in a central bank. For GDP to grow you need manpower, labour, investment risk, etc.

Thus the risks involved in growing a GDP is by orders of magnitude greater than those of growing the debt.

So if the risk is bigger in GDP growth, then it will grow much slower than the debt. So this means that the debt will outgrow the GDP, and create this global ponzi scheme that we live in now.

So hyperinflation will have to come to wash away this madness.

It is sad the hyperinflation is the only way to reduce the burden of debt. When bitcoin is widely adopted, the government cannot issue debt by printing the paper. Maybe there will be fewer debt problems.

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