America's new debt ceiling - $19,600,000,000,000 - page 9.

RealBitcoin

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Quote from: OrientA on October 31, 2015, 11:35:44 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Keynesianism relies on the fact that the economy can outgrow debt, which is silly.

It is silly because the GDP grows linearly, but the debt grows geometrically or even exponentially, thus it is by definition a ponzi scheme by design.

There is some truth in the above assertion. The interest for loan is always higher than the interest on savings. So debt will grow faster.

Thats not what I meant.

There is 2 sides: GDP & Debt.

You create debt easily with the push of 1 button in a central bank. For GDP to grow you need manpower, labour, investment risk, etc.

Thus the risks involved in growing a GDP is by orders of magnitude greater than those of growing the debt.

So if the risk is bigger in GDP growth, then it will grow much slower than the debt. So this means that the debt will outgrow the GDP, and create this global ponzi scheme that we live in now.

So hyperinflation will have to come to wash away this madness.

OrientA

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Keynesianism relies on the fact that the economy can outgrow debt, which is silly.

It is silly because the GDP grows linearly, but the debt grows geometrically or even exponentially, thus it is by definition a ponzi scheme by design.

There is some truth in the above assertion. The interest for loan is always higher than the interest on savings. So debt will grow faster.

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Keynesianism relies on the fact that the economy can outgrow debt, which is silly.

It is silly because the GDP grows linearly, but the debt grows geometrically or even exponentially, thus it is by definition a ponzi scheme by design.

This isn't such an absurd notion when the government is fiscally responsible and runs surpluses when the economy is healthy. However, despite extremely beneficial economic conditions over the past 60 years at times, we've never run a surplus when the economy is healthy. Rather than repaying the debt that was borrowed during slow times, republicans insist on cutting taxes during good times. We run deficits to grow the economy, then deficits when the economy is "recovered" because we slash taxes to celebrate how great the economy is. The current debt picture might look radically different if just the tiniest bit of fiscal common sense was injected.

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Quote from: StevenLiang on October 30, 2015, 08:32:31 PM

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Quote from: uki on October 30, 2015, 10:42:12 AM

yes, we agree that this type of game is a clearly Ponzi scheme, there is no discrepancy in our posts. The Keynesian economy is based on the assumption of the unending growth as a remedy for everything, and thus the need for creating it artificially leads to what FED does - money printing.
Each government can do that on the smaller or bigger scale, the impact of FED printing press is by far the biggest, due to the dominant position of US economy.

Keynesianism relies on the fact that the economy can outgrow debt, which is silly.

It is silly because the GDP grows linearly, but the debt grows geometrically or even exponentially, thus it is by definition a ponzi scheme by design.

There is no doubt about that.

If you design a 1000$ ponzi scheme, you go to jail. If you design a 1000 billion $ ponzi scheme, you get nobel prize in economics

Not so sure about that, some of "government people" will prevent any of ponzi scheme (either with design or not) I know all country have their own currency and print out their fiat money selves. But economy is not simply as print money out.
One thing that makes bitcoin acceptable and spread worldwide, "Bitcoin is a digital currency (also called crypto-currency) that is not backed by any country's central bank or government."

One thing that makes bitcoin acceptable and spread worldwide, "Bitcoin is a digital currency (also called crypto-currency) that is backed by the network of every body on Earth."

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: uki on October 30, 2015, 10:42:12 AM

yes, we agree that this type of game is a clearly Ponzi scheme, there is no discrepancy in our posts. The Keynesian economy is based on the assumption of the unending growth as a remedy for everything, and thus the need for creating it artificially leads to what FED does - money printing.
Each government can do that on the smaller or bigger scale, the impact of FED printing press is by far the biggest, due to the dominant position of US economy.

Keynesianism relies on the fact that the economy can outgrow debt, which is silly.

It is silly because the GDP grows linearly, but the debt grows geometrically or even exponentially, thus it is by definition a ponzi scheme by design.

There is no doubt about that.

If you design a 1000$ ponzi scheme, you go to jail. If you design a 1000 billion $ ponzi scheme, you get nobel prize in economics

Not so sure about that, some of "government people" will prevent any of ponzi scheme (either with design or not) I know all country have their own currency and print out their fiat money selves. But economy is not simply as print money out.
One thing that makes bitcoin acceptable and spread worldwide, "Bitcoin is a digital currency (also called crypto-currency) that is not backed by any country's central bank or government."

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While debts are transformed into decline in the purchasing power of the dollar and pumping fiat bubble in the stock market. Bitcoin I also received a number of injections from these investments.

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Quote from: neurotypical on October 30, 2015, 02:39:41 PM

Bitcoin is the only way that we can have a global form of money that's up to date with current's standards in technology and that is bullet proof again the evils of hyperinflation which assume resources are infinite. Bitcoin promotes saving and frugality instead of mindless consumption because you value your money way more than filthy fiat.

Well, I like BTC a lot, but I am very much into diversification re protecting my financial butt. We really do not know how BTC will react to a hyperinflationary environment (nor in a deflationary environment either). So, I would hold some gold as well as even CA$H (the long green stuff, NOT electrons in the bank).

How much of each of BTC, gold and CA$H? Depends on your own circumstances and views of possible economic scenarios.

But, a denouement is coming... The 19.6 trillion national debt (way understating total debts) is not payable, and WILL be defaulted on, one way or another.

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Bitcoin is the only way that we can have a global form of money that's up to date with current's standards in technology and that is bullet proof again the evils of hyperinflation which assume resources are infinite. Bitcoin promotes saving and frugality instead of mindless consumption because you value your money way more than filthy fiat.

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Quote from: RealBitcoin on October 30, 2015, 08:30:57 AM

Quote from: uki on October 30, 2015, 05:01:59 AM

Bonds on expiration are paid with the money from freshly issued bonds, so effectively they are rolled over to another period, be it 10, or 30, years.
This is repeated endlessly, each time the cost of the operation is higher. The cost doesn't matter however as FED can print the amount that is required.
This game is called 'kick the can'.

The game is called keynesian ponzi scheme. It's a ponzi scheme where you have a pyramid ownership, and everybody pays a part to the top of the pyramid (the elite), when they run out of money or new participants, they just print up more (confiscating from the already paid out clients) to run the scheme.

It is a complicated and well thought scheme, but it's still a ponzi scheme.

yes, we agree that this type of game is a clearly Ponzi scheme, there is no discrepancy in our posts. The Keynesian economy is based on the assumption of the unending growth as a remedy for everything, and thus the need for creating it artificially leads to what FED does - money printing.
Each government can do that on the smaller or bigger scale, the impact of FED printing press is by far the biggest, due to the dominant position of US economy.

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Quote from: RealBitcoin on October 30, 2015, 08:30:57 AM

Quote from: uki on October 30, 2015, 05:01:59 AM

Quote from: NorrisK on October 29, 2015, 06:45:31 PM

Isn't it pre-determined when the debt should be payed back?

They probably use the money they borrow from other countries, that is worth less when they borrow it a couple years later, to pay the old debts.

Rinse and repeat.

Bonds on expiration are paid with the money from freshly issued bonds, so effectively they are rolled over to another period, be it 10, or 30, years.
This is repeated endlessly, each time the cost of the operation is higher. The cost doesn't matter however as FED can print the amount that is required.
This game is called 'kick the can'.

The game is called keynesian ponzi scheme. It's a ponzi scheme where you have a pyramid ownership, and everybody pays a part to the top of the pyramid (the elite), when they run out of money or new participants, they just print up more (confiscating from the already paid out clients) to run the scheme.

It is a complicated and well thought scheme, but it's still a ponzi scheme.

I thought Ponzi scheme is a crime in many countries. I did not realize the US government is acting like a Ponzi scheme manager. Any way, they dictate the law, and it is not a crime for them.

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Quote from: uki on October 30, 2015, 05:01:59 AM

Quote from: NorrisK on October 29, 2015, 06:45:31 PM

Isn't it pre-determined when the debt should be payed back?

They probably use the money they borrow from other countries, that is worth less when they borrow it a couple years later, to pay the old debts.

Rinse and repeat.

Bonds on expiration are paid with the money from freshly issued bonds, so effectively they are rolled over to another period, be it 10, or 30, years.
This is repeated endlessly, each time the cost of the operation is higher. The cost doesn't matter however as FED can print the amount that is required.
This game is called 'kick the can'.

The game is called keynesian ponzi scheme. It's a ponzi scheme where you have a pyramid ownership, and everybody pays a part to the top of the pyramid (the elite), when they run out of money or new participants, they just print up more (confiscating from the already paid out clients) to run the scheme.

It is a complicated and well thought scheme, but it's still a ponzi scheme.

uki

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Quote from: NorrisK on October 29, 2015, 06:45:31 PM

Isn't it pre-determined when the debt should be payed back?

They probably use the money they borrow from other countries, that is worth less when they borrow it a couple years later, to pay the old debts.

Rinse and repeat.

Bonds on expiration are paid with the money from freshly issued bonds, so effectively they are rolled over to another period, be it 10, or 30, years.
This is repeated endlessly, each time the cost of the operation is higher. The cost doesn't matter however as FED can print the amount that is required.
This game is called 'kick the can'.

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Quote from: kydranel on October 29, 2015, 09:03:56 PM

who are they indebted to??world bank??i think all countries are in debt.

so who do we owe this money? im still confused

I agree that all countries are in debt.
They have their own "system" to lend and to debt.

Japanese country lend some money to X country. And have debt money to Y country. But in circle Y money have debt with X country too. Lol

But it's all about economy. And is not easy like that.
You can handle money when it just $100,000

But you cannot handle money when it goes to $100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

System handle it.

StevenLiang

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Quote from: thejaytiesto on October 29, 2015, 12:28:48 PM

All countries have severe non payable debts:

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

Other countries:

http://www.usdebtclock.org/world-debt-clock.html

The whole world is prone to collapse due an insane amount of never ending fiat cycle where more and more money is created to try to pay the debt which in return creates even more debt. It's madness. Only Bitcoin can return us to the correct pays of sound money.

Hmm... actually we are still trade bitcoin back to fiat money.
Not all business owner thing that bitcoin is more valuable than fiat money. You will on 'madness' when your bitcoin price drop from $1200 into $235

and now slightly up to $324

All hail Bitcoin!! You're the best

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That's it. There are no other options for clearing the debt. The US is going to lose its financial lead on the world stage and there is not enough money in the world to prevent it at this point.

It's just as bad in europe. We can't even pay for our own people and then we got massive amounts of immigrants on top of that. The entire western economy is going to collapse and it is going to happen within our lifetimes, possible as soon as within the next 5-10 years. Just a matter of how long they can keep kicking the can.

Large negative numbers don't hurt your way of life, so keep the party going.

regards

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who are they indebted to??world bank??i think all countries are in debt.

so who do we owe this money? im still confused

smiletyson

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Don't worry guyz, FED will print money again and lend it to some 3rd world countries, then will withdraw them. Surprise USA's economy is better now!

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Quote from: actmyname on October 29, 2015, 05:57:06 PM

Quote from: OrientA on October 29, 2015, 05:47:07 PM

Quote from: Gimpeline on October 29, 2015, 03:10:59 PM

Its just a number. Everyone knows that they have no intention to pay it back. Even if you add 10 more zeros it will have no impact since its worthless.
0*19600000000000 = 0
0*19600000000000000000 = 0
You can add as many zeros you want and it's still just worth what you are paying back, in other words 0

That is the spirit. There is no way the debt will be paid back. The debt will be inflated away, as many governments do in the past centuries.

Other countries shouldn't dare to try and collect on the debt, though, as it will damage the global economy severely. Even though the currency's just a bunch of paper that they print.

Isn't it pre-determined when the debt should be payed back?

They probably use the money they borrow from other countries, that is worth less when they borrow it a couple years later, to pay the old debts.

Rinse and repeat.

uki

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Quote from: OrientA on October 29, 2015, 05:47:07 PM

Quote from: Gimpeline on October 29, 2015, 03:10:59 PM

Its just a number. Everyone knows that they have no intention to pay it back. Even if you add 10 more zeros it will have no impact since its worthless.
0*19600000000000 = 0
0*19600000000000000000 = 0
You can add as many zeros you want and it's still just worth what you are paying back, in other words 0

That is the spirit. There is no way the debt will be paid back. The debt will be inflated away, as many governments do in the past centuries.

I also must join the camp of those who say that debt celling numbers matters very little, if at all. That is just a number that goes on the headlines if it pleases to make some plays, but in the big scheme of things when it comes to running the country, it must be extended to infinity. There is no other option in the Keynesian economy.

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Quote from: OrientA on October 29, 2015, 05:47:07 PM

Quote from: Gimpeline on October 29, 2015, 03:10:59 PM

Its just a number. Everyone knows that they have no intention to pay it back. Even if you add 10 more zeros it will have no impact since its worthless.
0*19600000000000 = 0
0*19600000000000000000 = 0
You can add as many zeros you want and it's still just worth what you are paying back, in other words 0

That is the spirit. There is no way the debt will be paid back. The debt will be inflated away, as many governments do in the past centuries.

Other countries shouldn't dare to try and collect on the debt, though, as it will damage the global economy severely. Even though the currency's just a bunch of paper that they print.

Topic: America's new debt ceiling - $19,600,000,000,000 - page 9. (Read 16322 times)