Pages:
Author

Topic: [ANN] ATOMIC: in SuperNET CORE - single blockchain for trading all coins&assets - page 8. (Read 58351 times)

sr. member
Activity: 251
Merit: 250

Number of coins:
        As ATOMIC itself is not a 'coin' and we are making use of transactions as a method of storing ledger information we believe that setting the number of coins to be generated to infinite is the best option. ATOMIC does not have to face the same issues as Bitcoin in regards to maintaining value by acting as a deflationary currency as it isn't a currency at all.

Maybe it's a good idea to totally avoid the word 'coin'.
Call them 'tokens'.
member
Activity: 100
Merit: 10

...

@number of coins

i think the two most important reasons to mine a coin is either the miner believes and want to support the coin or mining for profit.
like you said atomic is actually no real coin in a sense, so it will be very important to give miners an incentive to mine.

is it possible to create a system where the amount of circulating coins is dynamicly adjusted?
imho a stable price which is profitable is a very good incentive for miners. 


I will look into adjusting the number of coins in circulation but I'm 99.99% sure that's impossible as that capability would probably not be wanted in a decentralized currency because it would be seen as a backdoor of sorts. Also keep in mind that with many kinds of assets or even blockchain based things we haven't imagined yet moving through the ATOMIC network it could be possible to reward miners in mores ways that one. That would be another thing that I haven't heard of in any other crypto-currency.
member
Activity: 100
Merit: 10
Update:
...
2x bitcoin frequency is what I would have recommended and that happens to be 5 minutes!

I was thinking that the miners would probably get more from InstantDEX revshare than whatever the coins they mine would be worth. Not sure what utility the coins actually have here (other than being able to use existing codebase and they all spit out coins from coinbase) and maybe some speculative market will be created, or maybe there will be some use for these coins that we come up with.

OK, I came up with a use!

Not all blocks will have the same value. One block might have a DOGE<->LTC swap another could be recorded a Legal Deed for a real estate transaction. The InstantDEX revshare would be based on the economic value of the tx a specific miner was involved in. This will be quite "lumpy" and provide results like solo mining. The coins could be the equivalent of a mining pool. The InstantDEX revshare could be allocated between the specific miner and the entire set of Atomic miners.

If this split is 50/50 (maybe 2/3 vs 1/3?) then the revenues allocated to the entire set of Atomic miners would be allocated based on the number of coins they have. Basically each coin would be a share of the mining pool and when there are revenue sources other than just InstantDEX, this could become quite a bit larger than a share of 0.1% trading commissions

The coins are perfect to represent the proportional value of mining, but I dont like the rapid emmissions that a lot of coins have. It gives the earliest miners a disproportionate number of coins. Hopefully we can get a lot more linear emission, so that a miner joining later is making close to the same rate. After all there is no arms race for hashrate, so any sort of exponential difficulty increase seems wrong.

James

That's a great idea in some ways it reminds me of the way that the USPS handles insurance levels on shipments. The higher that the declared value is, the higher the insurance cost and thus higher the rewards for the miners(or postal workers Wink ). I actually considered making levels of miner based on things like number of coins in wallet and the age of the coins in order to help decide what nodes are the most active an reliable so you have given me inspiration in that area as well! I'm going to keep all of this in mind and post back here once we have the process written out in detail and figure out a way to maintain a level playing field for newcomers.
legendary
Activity: 2464
Merit: 1145
Update:
As we are wrapping up the process of getting the ATOMIC blockchain running for testing but before we actually generate the main net genesis block we would like to hear the opinions of those in the community about a few of the variables that we have had to set such as block time and number of coins.

Block Time:
   When deciding on what we wanted to make the block time for the ATOMIC network we took many things into consideration. First of all we wanted to make sure that the security of the blockchain was not compromised. When setting the block time you are playing with a double edged sword. Faster block times mean faster, but some would argue less secure transactions. Longer block times are arguably more secure but transactions take significantly longer. For example the original Bitcoin blockchain has block times of 10 minutes, while Litecoin has a block time of 2.5 minutes and Dogecoin a block time of just one minute. Although ATOMIC is not another altcoin it is just as important to the developers that we find a time fast enough to enable the advances we want to make with ATOMIC without compromising security. This is why we have settled for a block time of 5 minutes which places us right in between the block times of Litecoin and Bitcoin. We believe that a 5 minute block time is the best possible solution to reach a balance of speed and security on the ATOMIC network.

Number of coins:
        As ATOMIC itself is not a 'coin' and we are making use of transactions as a method of storing ledger information we believe that setting the number of coins to be generated to infinite is the best option. ATOMIC does not have to face the same issues as Bitcoin in regards to maintaining value by acting as a deflationary currency as it isn't a currency at all. Other well tested crypto-currencies like Dogecoin have adopted an infinite number of coins as a way to ensure that their miners will never leave once the rewards dry up. ATOMIC would be making use of an infinite number of coins simply to ensure that new blocks will always be generating which is required for ATOMIC to act as the main ledger / ticker tape of all cryptocurrencies. While it may not be an issue right now, 5 years from now we do not want ATOMIC to run out of blocks!

We are open to discussion on these topics and we would love to hear any arguments for alternative values which may work better for ATOMIC, although we have put a lot of time into making these preliminary decisions.



@blocktime

i agree, nothing much to add there.

@number of coins

i think the two most important reasons to mine a coin is either the miner believes and want to support the coin or mining for profit.
like you said atomic is actually no real coin in a sense, so it will be very important to give miners an incentive to mine.

is it possible to create a system where the amount of circulating coins is dynamicly adjusted?
imho a stable price which is profitable is a very good incentive for miners. 
legendary
Activity: 1176
Merit: 1134
Update:
As we are wrapping up the process of getting the ATOMIC blockchain running for testing but before we actually generate the main net genesis block we would like to hear the opinions of those in the community about a few of the variables that we have had to set such as block time and number of coins.

Block Time:
   When deciding on what we wanted to make the block time for the ATOMIC network we took many things into consideration. First of all we wanted to make sure that the security of the blockchain was not compromised. When setting the block time you are playing with a double edged sword. Faster block times mean faster, but some would argue less secure transactions. Longer block times are arguably more secure but transactions take significantly longer. For example the original Bitcoin blockchain has block times of 10 minutes, while Litecoin has a block time of 2.5 minutes and Dogecoin a block time of just one minute. Although ATOMIC is not another altcoin it is just as important to the developers that we find a time fast enough to enable the advances we want to make with ATOMIC without compromising security. This is why we have settled for a block time of 5 minutes which places us right in between the block times of Litecoin and Bitcoin. We believe that a 5 minute block time is the best possible solution to reach a balance of speed and security on the ATOMIC network.

Number of coins:
        As ATOMIC itself is not a 'coin' and we are making use of transactions as a method of storing ledger information we believe that setting the number of coins to be generated to infinite is the best option. ATOMIC does not have to face the same issues as Bitcoin in regards to maintaining value by acting as a deflationary currency as it isn't a currency at all. Other well tested crypto-currencies like Dogecoin have adopted an infinite number of coins as a way to ensure that their miners will never leave once the rewards dry up. ATOMIC would be making use of an infinite number of coins simply to ensure that new blocks will always be generating which is required for ATOMIC to act as the main ledger / ticker tape of all cryptocurrencies. While it may not be an issue right now, 5 years from now we do not want ATOMIC to run out of blocks!

We are open to discussion on these topics and we would love to hear any arguments for alternative values which may work better for ATOMIC, although we have put a lot of time into making these preliminary decisions.


2x bitcoin frequency is what I would have recommended and that happens to be 5 minutes!

I was thinking that the miners would probably get more from InstantDEX revshare than whatever the coins they mine would be worth. Not sure what utility the coins actually have here (other than being able to use existing codebase and they all spit out coins from coinbase) and maybe some speculative market will be created, or maybe there will be some use for these coins that we come up with.

OK, I came up with a use!

Not all blocks will have the same value. One block might have a DOGE<->LTC swap another could be recorded a Legal Deed for a real estate transaction. The InstantDEX revshare would be based on the economic value of the tx a specific miner was involved in. This will be quite "lumpy" and provide results like solo mining. The coins could be the equivalent of a mining pool. The InstantDEX revshare could be allocated between the specific miner and the entire set of Atomic miners.

If this split is 50/50 (maybe 2/3 vs 1/3?) then the revenues allocated to the entire set of Atomic miners would be allocated based on the number of coins they have. Basically each coin would be a share of the mining pool and when there are revenue sources other than just InstantDEX, this could become quite a bit larger than a share of 0.1% trading commissions

The coins are perfect to represent the proportional value of mining, but I dont like the rapid emmissions that a lot of coins have. It gives the earliest miners a disproportionate number of coins. Hopefully we can get a lot more linear emission, so that a miner joining later is making close to the same rate. After all there is no arms race for hashrate, so any sort of exponential difficulty increase seems wrong.

James
member
Activity: 100
Merit: 10
Update:
As we are wrapping up the process of getting the ATOMIC blockchain running for testing but before we actually generate the main net genesis block we would like to hear the opinions of those in the community about a few of the variables that we have had to set such as block time and number of coins.

Block Time:
   When deciding on what we wanted to make the block time for the ATOMIC network we took many things into consideration. First of all we wanted to make sure that the security of the blockchain was not compromised. When setting the block time you are playing with a double edged sword. Faster block times mean faster, but some would argue less secure transactions. Longer block times are arguably more secure but transactions take significantly longer. For example the original Bitcoin blockchain has block times of 10 minutes, while Litecoin has a block time of 2.5 minutes and Dogecoin a block time of just one minute. Although ATOMIC is not another altcoin it is just as important to the developers that we find a time fast enough to enable the advances we want to make with ATOMIC without compromising security. This is why we have settled for a block time of 5 minutes which places us right in between the block times of Litecoin and Bitcoin. We believe that a 5 minute block time is the best possible solution to reach a balance of speed and security on the ATOMIC network.

Number of coins:
        As ATOMIC itself is not a 'coin' and we are making use of transactions as a method of storing ledger information we believe that setting the number of coins to be generated to infinite is the best option. ATOMIC does not have to face the same issues as Bitcoin in regards to maintaining value by acting as a deflationary currency as it isn't a currency at all. Other well tested crypto-currencies like Dogecoin have adopted an infinite number of coins as a way to ensure that their miners will never leave once the rewards dry up. ATOMIC would be making use of an infinite number of coins simply to ensure that new blocks will always be generating which is required for ATOMIC to act as the main ledger / ticker tape of all cryptocurrencies. While it may not be an issue right now, 5 years from now we do not want ATOMIC to run out of blocks!

We are open to discussion on these topics and we would love to hear any arguments for alternative values which may work better for ATOMIC, although we have put a lot of time into making these preliminary decisions.

sr. member
Activity: 374
Merit: 250
I like this hybrid project.
member
Activity: 100
Merit: 10
I actually like the no 1 icon - it gives a very friendly and welcome feeling.
and I like the idea with the empty sections that could be used to fill in different colors for different sequences or progressing steps at various stages in a program or wallet..

NXT-M888-3RBA-HVWZ-CV4YY

The general consensus has already decided on style #4 but I would like to thank you for voting and you'll be receiving some ATOMIC  Smiley

sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 250
"to endure to achieve"
I actually like the no 1 icon - it gives a very friendly and welcome feeling.
and I like the idea with the empty sections that could be used to fill in different colors for different sequences or progressing steps at various stages in a program or wallet..

NXT-M888-3RBA-HVWZ-CV4YY
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 250
AKA jefdiesel
Brilliant. SuperNET is having a calming and charming effect on BTT too!
legendary
Activity: 1736
Merit: 1001
amazing idea

You can say that again. It helps any coin integrate.
newbie
Activity: 53
Merit: 0
member
Activity: 100
Merit: 10
so what is the point in coins having individual block chains? seems like everything will just merge onto one blockchain in the future, if this project is a success. very cool if this works out..actually this is a pretty big deal. so much great stuff coming out right now!


for revenues - it will be just like NXT's PoS? all transaction fees will go to asset holders?
the miners will need some fees, but the majority will go to asset holders

We need all the different blockchains to preserve decentralization. Having just one blockchain for everything is a bit too centralizing in my opinion. Like SuperNET that connects all the coins at the RPC API level, the Atomic creates a shared record, so it is all part of creating a "single" crypto ecosystem but composed of all the different current and future cryptos.

Plus in practice there is no way to get everyone to just agree on one blockchain.

Atomic will become the official ticker tape of crypto and eventually even real world transactions as they migrate into crypto.

James

Couldn't have said it better myself, ATOMIC will allow any coin to integrate but has no goals of monopolizing the blockchains Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1176
Merit: 1134
so what is the point in coins having individual block chains? seems like everything will just merge onto one blockchain in the future, if this project is a success. very cool if this works out..actually this is a pretty big deal. so much great stuff coming out right now!


for revenues - it will be just like NXT's PoS? all transaction fees will go to asset holders?
the miners will need some fees, but the majority will go to asset holders

We need all the different blockchains to preserve decentralization. Having just one blockchain for everything is a bit too centralizing in my opinion. Like SuperNET that connects all the coins at the RPC API level, the Atomic creates a shared record, so it is all part of creating a "single" crypto ecosystem but composed of all the different current and future cryptos.

Plus in practice there is no way to get everyone to just agree on one blockchain.

Atomic will become the official ticker tape of crypto and eventually even real world transactions as they migrate into crypto.

James
hero member
Activity: 493
Merit: 500
so what is the point in coins having individual block chains? seems like everything will just merge onto one blockchain in the future, if this project is a success. very cool if this works out..actually this is a pretty big deal. so much great stuff coming out right now!


for revenues - it will be just like NXT's PoS? all transaction fees will go to asset holders?
member
Activity: 100
Merit: 10
Update: We will be appending this information to the ATOMIC technical document

ATOMIC Ledger Process

Brief: As ATOMIC will act as a single “ticker tape” that can keep track of exchanges between all crypto-currencies, assets, or any future blockchain related technologies, how will we keep track of and verify all of the exchanges in a decentralized way? One part of the ATOMIC network called the ATOMIC Ledger (the blockchain of the network) will make use of newly available attributes of Bitcoin transaction scripts for a portion of the process. If you would like to read more about transactions scripts there is a great article on the wiki: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script

Coinbase header script data (Block):
   Upon the generation of a block the generation transaction contains the coinbase which can contain any small amount of random data as it is the input of the generation transaction. Bitcoin core currently does not actually make use of this data so there is no risk in ATOMIC appending transaction information. Some mining pools will append the name of their pool or other information for example. While the data isn't seen by most users of Bitcoin, the data can be accessed via the RPC interface or directly as strings from the blockchain database file stored locally. This small data area of each block in the blockchain is a great place for ATOMIC to store information that must be verifiable by all members of the network and backed by a decentralized blockchain. As the amount of data that we can fit into the coinbase is very small (the entire script must be less than 100 bytes) this area is going to be lightly used.

OP_RETURN data (Transaction):
   The main area that ATOMIC will be appending information however will be within the OP_RETURN attribute of transaction scripts which has been enabled in every transaction since Bitcoin core version 0.9 was released. ATOMIC obviously does not use the same blockchain as Bitcoin but it is good to know that the OP_RETURN attribute has seen major use for a long period of time in the core Bitcoin network which means it has been well used and abused. As this feature has been well tested we can take a look at both the positives and the possible drawbacks of using OP_RETURN as a solution for appending small amounts POE related data.
   OP_RETURN data is different from the coinbase data described above as instead of being part of each block generated, OP_RETURN is a part of every transaction. This means that when the ATOMIC network has confirmed an exchange via POE or when an exchange is being broadcast to the 'miners' of the network in order for it to be confirmed we can use OP_RETURN to store relevant data. With this portion of the ATOMIC ledger process we will be able to broadcast, verify and store exchange information in a 100% decentralized way. As with the coinbase of each block described above, the OP_RETURN data from transactions is not displayed to typical users of Bitcoin unless they request the information from the command line or manually view data in the blockchain. We will be developing an open source addition to current blockchain explorers which will allow this information to be viewed as the ATOMIC network will need to.

Multiple forms of verification:
   Another benefit of making use of these two separate areas of decentralized storage is that by design the messages in the block coinbase can only be generated by the miners of network where as transactions may be generated by any user. One option for a slight amount of added security would require that all new 'miners' go through a significant verification process (ruled by the network not by a central authority) similar to the waiting period that is required by Proof Of Stake coins before they will begin minting coins. This would mean that in order to be able to actually add data to coinbase you must have already proven your node as being reliable and stable.
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1004
I like Style 4 and Style 2. However Style 2 looks like atomic hazard logo Grin.


If you don't mind here is my simple modification of the Style 4:


This one is my favourite.
member
Activity: 100
Merit: 10
I like Style 4 and Style 2. However Style 2 looks like atomic hazard logo Grin.


If you don't mind here is my simple modification of the Style 4:
--image
--image
--images

Those look great! I'm going to send over all of this info to the artist right now. It looks like the general consensus is that style 4 is the best overall. Everyone that has voted should have received some ATOMIC by now, if not please PM me with your NXT address!
member
Activity: 100
Merit: 10
l like styles 2 and 4 the best as well. 2 is good for the sake of keeping the logo simple but distinctive. It looks like a radar display pinging the other blockchains. 4 is more elegant, but will be hard to display as a very small logo.

NXT-LEH6-UQ45-A7R6-5QD93


Thank you for the feedback I agree with you  Smiley

imho style 4 looks the best, although i dont really like the red background colour.

would it be possible to have more dark/grey metallic colours in it? something that looks more futuristic.

tbh seeing this sea of red instantly let me thinks of communism  Tongue


I will ask the artist about making a darker/more futuristic looking version of style 4! Thanks for the feedback  Smiley
legendary
Activity: 2464
Merit: 1145
imho style 4 looks the best, although i dont really like the red background colour.

would it be possible to have more dark/grey metallic colours in it? something that looks more futuristic.

tbh seeing this sea of red instantly let me thinks of communism  Tongue



Pages:
Jump to: