Topic: [ANN] KRAKEN.COM - Exchange with USD EUR GBP JPY CAD BTC LTC XRP NMC XDG STR ETH - page 176. (Read 628889 times)

From what you wrote, I think there are some misconceptions:
1. When you settle a position, then this position is not open any more.
2. When you close a position then this closing involves a trade. (If you close a 10 BTCEUR short position, then you actually buy 10 BTC at market.)

The position would not stay open because settlement is just an alternative way of closing the position. Let me know if this doesn't help, but have you seen our blog post on settlement?

http://blog.kraken.com/post/143865496412/new-feature-cash-out-of-margin-positions-with

Appreciate the explanation. Only started using Kraken yesterday for the first time, but I definitely need to eat more weetabix today, cos i still dont why i would want to settle the borrowed funds, but still keep the position open. What scenario would that be an advantage to me? And when i 'close', i dont experience any of that friction/hops you mention, and with no additional fees, from what i can make out.

Cheers

 

Assume you have a BTCEUR short position of 10 BTC. That means you actually borrowed 10 BTC from Kraken in order to sell it for EUR.
Now you decide you want to give back the 10 BTC to Kraken (say from your cold wallet) and keep the EUR for good. What you have to do in this case: You deposit 10 BTC and settle the position. Without settling you would have to close the position and then sell the deposited 10 BTC on the market. The latter method would imply two unnecessary trades involving a lot of friction (fees, spread, effects of limited order book depth).
So, it's actually really nice from Kraken to spare you this hassle and provide the settle feature even for free.

Having trouble understanding why i would want to 'settle' a position. Maybe im missing the obvious, but what advantage does it offer the trader?

Yes.


Yes. The only logical conclusion, since my claim was rejected.


I myself am aware of couple of 100k from OKPAY, EUR/USD/GBP bank transfers.


Of course, there is trail of interbank electronic transactions. Money don't just dissaper when you transact between different banks and bank accounts. I dunno why Trustee ignored this when making decisions.

So you also send money just before mtgox disappeared? And a proof , like a bank or OKPAY statement that you sent the money was not accepted?
There must be a big load of monetary inputs within the last days of Gox (which were never credited to the balance).
Aren't they able to check these inputs with your proof ?!

In my case this documentation was not accepted, since my claims were rejected.

I believe Trustee is not working according to law and people that got rejected (there were some people with significant amounts of cash) will raise this issue in the court and the whole process of redistribution will be delayed for another few months or even years, until Trustee solves problems.

Sorry, I can't confirm since we don't know about that detail and can't speak for the trustee in any case. I would ask this question by calling the phone number above.

What I can tell you is that since the online form did not support the inclusion of supporting documents, some people tried sending in a paper claim and including the supporting documents with the paper claim. However, I don't know if such supporting documents are being recognized in the evaluation of claims by the trustee or whether it would be an effective way to make claims about bank transfers that were not reflected in your gox account balance.

Thank you. Do you know more about the procedere?
I read that someone at reddit said, that we will get asked, if we accept the decision. And if we do not accept, we will be able to send proofs. Can you confirm this?

From mtgox.com (in one of the PDF files regarding claims):

Contact information for inquiries concerning the filing of Exchange-Related Bankruptcy Claims
is as follows:
MTGOX Co., Ltd. Office of Bankruptcy Trustee
Telephone: +81-3-4588-3922 (10a.m. - 5p.m. weekdays) (Japan time)

They don't have email contact unfortunately. I'll ask the Kraken team to see if anyone can offer advice or help on this issue, but any changes to a claim at this late stage will have to be done by contacting the trustee.

@ Dargo:

Topic MtGox:
Do you know any email address from Trustee or simular were customers like me can write to?
There were many customers who send money to mtgox some days before gox disappeared. So this money was never shown in the account balance from mtgox.
But the Trustee only accepted claims that matched with the account balance without asking for any proofes of bank/OKPAY transfer of money!
This is not okay. I want to send them the proofs that I send money and I want my claim to be accepted.

Why wasn't it possible to attach proofs to the claim?!

That won't help. To be a successful trader you need to be insider and get ahead of pumps and dumps. That's it. Simple.

 Come one Drago ... like one can keep a spreadsheet in the middle of trading at such high volatility as cryptos and having to make split second decisions at times...

You made no sense of my example because I copy/pasted wrong, sorry. My point is that it is very probably that in the midst of trying to recover from losses by entering lower positions, that as gains increase (so do % value), one is wrongly induced into closing positions thinking the total unrealized P/L is positive, when in reality it's the opposite.

 It is what it is. Just need to keep an very close look. Kraken is absolutely not very friendly at all in that domain, but overall it's my favourite platform.

Here is my previous example, but fixed

Initial conditions;

• Position 1: -10%
• Position 2: +5%
• Position 3: -5%

Closing position 2 profits...

• Position 1: -5%
• Position 2: +5% (remains in list due to FIFO rule)

• Position 3: -5%

If I now get distrated or something, look at it again, close position 2 again, I'm making wrong move. With lots os positions, this is chaos to manage. But anyways;

Say later  on or next day I get another +5% gain

• Position 1: 0% (disappears from list)
• Position 2: +10%

• Position 3: 0% (remains in list but with 0%)

I think I have a 10% gain a close everything, when in reality I only win 5%. This was a vague example when the end result is still positive, but it could well be negative thinking it's positive...[/list]

The above doesn't make sense to me because if you close Position 2 when Position 1 has -5% loss, then Position 2 would at that time have a +10% gain and you would be at break even at that point as I said earlier. And it would be the same situation if you close Position 1 at that point instead.

It can get difficult to manage in your head, yes, so to manage it easily you really need to make some kind of spreadsheet to keep track of the math. Ideally we would have a way to do this automatically in your account, but that's just not something we offer right now. To be a successful trader, though, you really need to learn the essential mathematics of profit and loss, so it's not an entirely bad thing for you to work through it and create a trading spreadsheet for yourself.

Hey Dargo, it makes perfect sense now. Mental math is certainly not my strong point, so my head was spinning.

 The only thing that gets to me is how to manage this long term, because if I close a + position, it's stays at the same + value. So next day I may come back and inadvertently close gain from the same position.

• Position 1: -10%
• Position 2: +5%
• Net profit/loss: -5%

Closing position 2 profits...

• Position 1: -5%
• Position 2: +5%
• Net profit/loss: -5%

If I close position 2 again, I'm making wrong move. With lots os positions, this is chaos to manage.

Say later I get a +5% gain

• Position 1: 0%
• Position 2: +10%
• Net profit/loss: 0%

I think I have a 10% gain a close everything, when in reality I only win 5% ... or worse with real hard numbers, loose thinking I've won. Of course I have to keep an eye out to total unrealised P/L, but in any case, makes life horrible and stressful. Imagine the above example but with 15 or 20 open positions. Other than that, trading in Kraken is superb.

When you have multiple positions open you are essentially just net long or short at whatever the average price of all the positions is. Although it can be strange psychologically, it doesn't really matter mathematically which position you close. To keep things simple, suppose you have two positions of the same size:

• Position 1: -10%
• Position 2: +5%
• Net profit/loss: -5%

Regardless of whether you close Position 1 first or Position 2 first, you still have a net loss of -5% on your margin trading so far. Let's say you opened Position 1 first, so due to FIFO this is the one you have to close first. So you close Position 1 and are left with the net loss of -5%. If the market then continues to move in your favor and Position 2 shows a +10% profit, then you are now net 0% on your margin trading. And if Position 2 gets to +15% profit you are now net +5% on your margin trading.

For the most part you have to keep track of the math here yourself (though we do give a summary of your open margin positions under Trade > Overview in your account). I'm not sure when we will have this feature, but at some point we plan to offer a summary of your net long or short positions under the "Positions" tab so you can get a better picture of your margin trading directly from the UI.

Hope this helps!

I'm not new to margin trading, but it is the first time I'm using FIFO mandatory rule - First in First out.

That means that as your place orders, when you want to close them you are forced to close by the order in which they were place in. That doesn't seem bad at all, except if the market moves against you, as it just did for me.

 So I entered 2 long position, they were going fine, and just when I was about to close it, wham, Eth dumped pretty hard. I believe its shaking, not market so want to hang strong, its already going up.

 So now I want to make up for it entering lower longs, hopefully breaking even mid-way, maybe even take a profit.

 So I'm entering lower longs, and as they become profitable, it makes sense for me to close them and gradually protect myself. Problems is, as I "close" the winning lower longs, they don't disappear. Due to the FIFO rule, I liquidate parte of the first order, which is loosing.

 Makes sense and I still win, now my last lower long, despite displaying profit, it is in fact not real, as I've liquidated that profit from the first higher long.

Let me try an illustrate;

1st) High Long (negative profit)
2nd) High Long (negative profit)
3rd) Lower Long (little profit)
4th) Lower Long (little profit)

So when I close the little profit

1st) High Long (negative profit) - partial margin closing (equal to little profit gains from Lower Longs) = High Long with less negative profit
2nd) High Long - Untouched
3rd) Lower Long - Untouched
4th) Lower Long  - Untouched

So how on earth do I make sense of when I break even, or when I manage to recoup to profits?

Hope you followed my logic. FIFO makes perfect sense in wharehouse management, but makes my head spin in Margin if you're loosing. IF you're winning it's quite logical, I can't make sense of protecting loses.

 Anyone care to tutor me on this one ?

site is really slow right now.
Does anybody else have lagging problems sometimes ?

i'm tier 3 so it's not that


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