[ANN] KRAKEN.COM - Exchange with USD EUR GBP JPY CAD BTC LTC XRP NMC XDG STR ETH - page 296.

Serpens66

legendary

Activity: 2926

Merit: 1131

Quote from: KrakenTrader on January 29, 2014, 07:00:30 PM

@Serpens66: Thanks. Your explanation makes sense. I was waiting in a 571 buy position during the morning but it didn't drop that far, and I was left kinda wondering why.
Would you say he set those walls to influence the rates ? ( many people will put orders in front of his, so price is unlikely to drop that deep as it would without those walls )
What could be his strategy ( if any ) ?

I don't really know, what the strategy could be... but obviously it ensures that the price does not fall that fast. So I think it's a good thing for the volume of kraken and for the bitcoin price in general, as long there is a guy who is buying a lot of coins Cheesy

Of course a big order like that on a small exchange could influence people to buy at higher rates like you said. But I don't think he pushes the price, because kraken is one of the lower € price at the moment (btc-e 593€, bitcoin.de 589€, kraken 583€).

KrakenTrader

member

Activity: 102

Merit: 10

Quote from: Serpens66 on January 29, 2014, 06:18:46 PM

Quote from: Rannasha on January 29, 2014, 05:23:03 PM

@KrakenTrader: There have been orders of that size before. A few days ago (when the price dropped to $730 on Bitstamp after the BitInstant arrests) there was a big buy-wall at 575 (If I recall correctly).

I'm not entirely sure if it's the best idea to create such a large wall in a market that follows other exchanges unless you plan on pulling it (but then, why are you trying to manipulate an exchange that is not setting its own course).

and @KrakenTrader:

This wall was created at the same time period (~one hour) when 100BTC walls were created at 540€, 560€ and 575€. As Rannasha said it was right after this "crash". So I would say all these walls were from the same person (because of same time period and same size), so he deposited these ~180000€ about at least two months.
The 540wall is removed already. And the 575 wall was cleared during the morning (european time) after the "crash". Other exchanges went down again, but kraken did not go under 575€ Wink

and yes, these are very very large orders compared to normal kraken-orders Cheesy

@Serpens66: Thanks. Your explanation makes sense. I was waiting in a 571 buy position during the morning but it didn't drop that far, and I was left kinda wondering why.
Would you say he set those walls to influence the rates ? ( many people will put orders in front of his, so price is unlikely to drop that deep as it would without those walls )
What could be his strategy ( if any ) ?

Serpens66

legendary

Activity: 2926

Merit: 1131

Quote from: Rannasha on January 29, 2014, 05:23:03 PM

@KrakenTrader: There have been orders of that size before. A few days ago (when the price dropped to $730 on Bitstamp after the BitInstant arrests) there was a big buy-wall at 575 (If I recall correctly).

I'm not entirely sure if it's the best idea to create such a large wall in a market that follows other exchanges unless you plan on pulling it (but then, why are you trying to manipulate an exchange that is not setting its own course).

and @KrakenTrader:

This wall was created at the same time period (~one hour) when 100BTC walls were created at 540€, 560€ and 575€. As Rannasha said it was right after this "crash". So I would say all these walls were from the same person (because of same time period and same size), so he deposited these ~180000€ about at least two months.
The 540wall is removed already. And the 575 wall was cleared during the morning (european time) after the "crash". Other exchanges went down again, but kraken did not go under 575€ Wink

and yes, these are very very large orders compared to normal kraken-orders Cheesy

KrakenTrader

member

Activity: 102

Merit: 10

Quote from: Rannasha on January 29, 2014, 05:23:03 PM

@KrakenTrader: There have been orders of that size before. A few days ago (when the price dropped to $730 on Bitstamp after the BitInstant arrests) there was a big buy-wall at 575 (If I recall correctly).
I'm not entirely sure if it's the best idea to create such a large wall in a market that follows other exchanges unless you plan on pulling it (but then, why are you trying to manipulate an exchange that is not setting its own course).

@Rannasha. Thanks, I haven't noticed those large orders then.
China celebrates the NEW YEAR on 1.2.2014. I've been hearing in all the trading circles that people expect a drop because of the china thing. So, some traders are sitting in fiat and some nervous people will cash out once they see it dropping which will cause it to drop even further.
So the guy with 98.516 BTC at 560€ may just have taken place on a comfortable buy position.

js1985

full member

Activity: 229

Merit: 101

Is there a list of countries (Western europe) where Level 3 verification can proceed? read somewhere that if they do not have a license in country/state they leave you level 1

it would be nice if there was a page which clearly states which countries are supported fully (if there is and i havent seen it, then sorry, i did look)

Rannasha

hero member

Activity: 728

Merit: 500

@KrakenTrader: There have been orders of that size before. A few days ago (when the price dropped to $730 on Bitstamp after the BitInstant arrests) there was a big buy-wall at 575 (If I recall correctly).

I'm not entirely sure if it's the best idea to create such a large wall in a market that follows other exchanges unless you plan on pulling it (but then, why are you trying to manipulate an exchange that is not setting its own course).

Avalaxy

full member

Activity: 149

Merit: 100

@KrakenTrader if the price drops big time, the wall will simply be (re)moved.

@MakeBelieve what do you mean by "how long does it take to convert USD to BTC"...?

raskul

sr. member

Activity: 434

Merit: 250

it'll get there leave the order in

KrakenTrader

member

Activity: 102

Merit: 10

Hi Guys,

Concerning trading volume, we all know it's quite low.
currently:

By yesterday I spotted a ( for Kraken quite unusual ) high buy order at €560.00 for 98.516 BTC.
I don't believe that it's from one trader only.

And at least I haven't seen a large order like that before on Kraken.
I was about to set a buy order at 550€, but for around 15BTC only. Chances are, that during the next drop
BTC won't cross the 560 mark due to that larger buy order. Any thoughts?

Cheers
Derek

MakeBelieve

hero member

Activity: 602

Merit: 500

What's the average time it takes to convert from USD to BTC?

tbosman

newbie

Activity: 34

Merit: 0

Quote from: tbosman on January 28, 2014, 10:18:43 AM

Quote from: Dargo on January 27, 2014, 09:02:48 PM

Quote from: tbosman on January 27, 2014, 10:52:17 AM

Quote from: Dargo on January 26, 2014, 05:38:04 PM

Quote from: MusX on January 26, 2014, 04:22:42 PM

no update about the order book bug yet?

We think we've fixed all the issues people were seeing, and all those fixes are now live. So please let us know if you see anything that still doesn't look right.

There were a variety of cases, but all of them were caused by a bid > ask condition. For example, suppose the book contains these orders:

sell 1 lot @ 130
buy 0.5 lot @ 127
buy 0.5 lot @ 120
sell 0.5 lot @ trailing stop 126, limit 100
buy 1 lot @ 110

So current ask is 130 and bid is 127.

A new order is placed to ~~buy~~ sell 1 lot at 125. The order picks up the 0.5 lots @ 127 and then the rest of it goes on the book as 0.5 lot @ 125. Now the current ask is 125 and bid is 120.

The 120 bid triggers the trailing stop @ 126 and puts in a limit sell order at 100. Now the bid is 120 and ask is 100 (bid > ask condition). If the ask side initiates the trade, the trade will be done at $120. If the bid side initiates the trade, the trade will be done at $100 (which appears to have skipped over the buy @ 110).

So those of you who thought you were being skipped over, you weren't. It's just that someone with a higher bid in the book got filled at a price below your offer. Of course, the converse could happen too, where someone on the ask side might appear to have been skipped over when in fact someone with a lower ask just got filled at a higher price.

In one sense, this isn't really a bug, because whichever side initiates is supposed to get the best offer on the book from their perspective. So if the buy side initiates, they should get the lowest ask on the book - i.e. $100 in the case above. It's just that when bid > ask, this normally sound principle leads to unexpected price action that doesn't look right. And we'd probably be answering support tickets and questions on social media forever if it wasn't fixed. In the scenario above, the fix is that the trade will execute at $120 regardless of which side initiates the trade. That seemed the best solution, and will avoid the strange price action, but it also means that the side initiating the trade under this bid > ask condition isn't always going to get the best offer on the book (as they normally would when ask > bid).

I don't really follow your explanation. How do you determine the side which initiates the trade? In this case the bid of 120 was there before the stop was triggered, so the sell order came last and is the initiating side right? I don't see how this ever could lead to a scenario where the trades executing at a price beyond the best bid/ask.

This is how it works now, but not before. Before the timestamp on an order was just the time of order entry, and this timestamp carried over to orders that triggered from advanced orders. Now the timestamp is determined by the time the order is created, so an order that triggers from an advanced order is given a new timestamp. Apparently in the original design of the trade engine, triggered orders got a new timestamp, but at some point this was changed to the timestamp just being the time of order entry because that was simpler and it was thought that it wouldn't be a problem.

Suppose the orders in the example are placed in the following sequence:

sell 1 lot @ 130
sell 0.5 lot @ trailing stop 126, limit 100
buy 0.5 lot @ 120
buy 0.5 lot @ 127
buy 1 lot @ 110
sell 1 lot at 125

As you say, the newest order initiates, but before this meant that the buy order @ 120 would initiate because it was considered newest and this would result in a fill at 100. Apparently there was also an issue with sorting that sometimes caused the older order to initiate (resulting in a fill at 120), but this has been fixed as well.

With both of the fixes, the newest order always initiates and the age of an order is determined by when it is created (so an order that triggers from another gets a new timestamp). In the example, this means that the triggered sell @ 100 will always initiates and the fill will be at 120.

I'm not sure when we'll have the time to do this, but at some point we'd like to write up a document explaining all the rules of the trade engine so the technical details of how trade matching works exactly are available. Some exchanges have done this for basic order types, but I'm not sure any exchange has ever done it to include the advanced orders (but let me know if you know of one).

Ok that explains a lot. Regarding documentation, i don't know of any bitcoin exchanges having advanced orders like kraken at all, are there any? Strangely enough i couldn't find the matching rules for advanced orders on any regular exchange either, although they must be publicized somewhere.

I do have a few questions about the matching if you can answer them yourself, if not i can wait for the document.
- How is the price protection calculated for market orders?
- Is order matching atomic? I.e. if a orders crosses the market, will it match orders as far as possible before anything else happens, or is it possible for incoming/triggered orders to be added as the order 'walks' the book.
- I understand that any triggered order will be handled as a new limit/market order with a fresh timestamp. So this means that if multiple orders are triggered by the same trade/order being executed, they will arrive with the stame timestamp right? How is execution priority handled in that case?

https://europeanequities.nyx.com/sites/europeanequities.nyx.com/files/the_stop_order.pdf
This explains the priority for the stop/loss and stop-limit order types on NYSE Euronext. Is this comparable to how it works at kraken?

ledmaniak

sr. member

Activity: 266

Merit: 250

Quote from: thisisnotmyltcusername on January 29, 2014, 06:33:52 AM

Quote from: finder_keeper on January 29, 2014, 03:55:33 AM

by the time he/she chose to take to write this diatribe :-)

I'm actually a fan of Kraken, I trade there (as well as bitstamp), and I am just hoping that they can work something out with their banks to:
a) Speed up USD withdrawls, or better yet,
b) Convert USD balances to EUR.

c) don't block BTC withdrawals Undecided

Just try again if it happens. I just did a withdrawal with success.

Serpens66

legendary

Activity: 2926

Merit: 1131

How about kraken on tradingview?

thisisnotmyltcusername

sr. member

Activity: 308

Merit: 250

Quote from: finder_keeper on January 29, 2014, 03:55:33 AM

by the time he/she chose to take to write this diatribe :-)

I'm actually a fan of Kraken, I trade there (as well as bitstamp), and I am just hoping that they can work something out with their banks to:
a) Speed up USD withdrawls, or better yet,
b) Convert USD balances to EUR.

c) don't block BTC withdrawals Undecided

finder_keeper

jr. member

Activity: 58

Merit: 10

Quote from: Serpens66 on January 28, 2014, 06:12:59 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

...

and you could have said all this in 1-2 sentences without insulting him.

That's ok, I'm not insulted, just impressed by the time he/she chose to take to write this diatribe :-)

I'm actually a fan of Kraken, I trade there (as well as bitstamp), and I am just hoping that they can work something out with their banks to:
a) Speed up USD withdrawls, or better yet,
b) Convert USD balances to EUR.

This will actually be beneficial to both the exchange and its users, by providing assurances that people can withdraw money quickly and losslessly when needed, and therefore increasing the trade volume overall.

-- FK

Serpens66

legendary

Activity: 2926

Merit: 1131

Quote from: ?? on ??

...

and you could have said all this in 1-2 sentences without insulting him.

garan

newbie

Activity: 44

Merit: 0

Quote from: C. Bergmann on January 28, 2014, 03:06:37 PM

Quote from: Avalaxy on January 28, 2014, 01:34:10 PM

Right now, Kraken is the #2 bitcoin exchange when it comes to XBT/EUR volume (source).

No. Bitcoin.de is the second largest exchanges for Euro. Source: bitcoincharts.com/markets. More than three times the monthly volume kraken has.

I'm glad to see bitcoincharts.com added Kraken data.
However, you should not look at the monthly volume because Kraken was apparently added the Jan 9th (http://bitcoincharts.com/markets/krakenEUR.html).

From Jan 9th up to Jan 27th (both inclusive) I have found the following volume:

Code:

MtGox      15,491
Bitcoin.de  8,891
Kraken      7,149
BTC-E       5,996

@Avalaxy, he's talking about monthly volume...

Avalaxy

full member

Activity: 149

Merit: 100

Quote from: C. Bergmann on January 28, 2014, 03:06:37 PM

Quote from: Avalaxy on January 28, 2014, 01:34:10 PM

Right now, Kraken is the #2 bitcoin exchange when it comes to XBT/EUR volume (source).

No. Bitcoin.de is the second largest exchanges for Euro. Source: bitcoincharts.com/markets. More than three times the monthly volume kraken has.

Erhhh, did you look at the last column "volume"? http://bitcoincharts.com/markets/currency/EUR.html

Bitcoin.de: 591.77
Kraken: 836.00

C. Bergmann

hero member

Activity: 803

Merit: 500

Quote from: Avalaxy on January 28, 2014, 01:34:10 PM

Right now, Kraken is the #2 bitcoin exchange when it comes to XBT/EUR volume (source).

No. Bitcoin.de is the second largest exchanges for Euro. Source: bitcoincharts.com/markets. More than three times the monthly volume kraken has.

ledmaniak

sr. member

Activity: 266

Merit: 250

Nice! How many downloads did you get so far? Can you see the amount and frequency of users using your app?

It seems like your app is getting a LOT of attention on twitter and big tech sites as people are discovering it. Random keywords on twitter also show more and more results: https://twitter.com/search?q=kraken%20app&src=typd&f=realtime Shocked

Good news for both Kraken and you!

This seems like a really great opportunity for kraken to support promotion of the app(or adopt it?!) and use all the free attention to promote their services and the fact that they are the first exchange with a mobile trading app!.

Keep up the good work! Grin

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