Dear Tom,
Yes.
Sincerely,
BFL
XXOO
Topic: [Archive] BFL trolling museum - page 96. (Read 69394 times)
FIFO order portion will be on the date the order was paid. If two orders were paid on the same day, the lower order number gets priority.
If we send out demo units, it will only be a few Jalapeno's, which won't amount to more than a few tens of GH, not enough to affect the network hashrate in any appreciable way. We explicitly want to avoid a difficulty spike, which is why we are wanting to release as many units we can at once, so no one has a marked advantage. The demo unit business is not set in stone, I am just trying to get a feel for how the majority of the people want to handle verification that we have the hardware we claim to have. I don't want to get into another situation where people are crying scam or what not.
If we send out demo units, it will only be a few Jalapeno's, which won't amount to more than a few tens of GH, not enough to affect the network hashrate in any appreciable way. We explicitly want to avoid a difficulty spike, which is why we are wanting to release as many units we can at once, so no one has a marked advantage. The demo unit business is not set in stone, I am just trying to get a feel for how the majority of the people want to handle verification that we have the hardware we claim to have. I don't want to get into another situation where people are crying scam or what not.
People have already sent you the money and they are still ordering....
BFL has stated they would ship their products before the end of October, so just produce and ship
Who do you need to convince that you have the hardware ?
Dear BFL:
If you do send demo units can you please send them to Developers who are going to use them to better the mining software and not just people you think are popular around here?
...Like the way you did it last time... that was very lame.
thank you.
-Tom
yeah give it to the engineers/developers to honor their hard work for bitcoin!
FIFO order portion will be on the date the order was paid. If two orders were paid on the same day, the lower order number gets priority.
If we send out demo units, it will only be a few Jalapeno's, which won't amount to more than a few tens of GH, not enough to affect the network hashrate in any appreciable way. We explicitly want to avoid a difficulty spike, which is why we are wanting to release as many units we can at once, so no one has a marked advantage. The demo unit business is not set in stone, I am just trying to get a feel for how the majority of the people want to handle verification that we have the hardware we claim to have. I don't want to get into another situation where people are crying scam or what not.
If we send out demo units, it will only be a few Jalapeno's, which won't amount to more than a few tens of GH, not enough to affect the network hashrate in any appreciable way. We explicitly want to avoid a difficulty spike, which is why we are wanting to release as many units we can at once, so no one has a marked advantage. The demo unit business is not set in stone, I am just trying to get a feel for how the majority of the people want to handle verification that we have the hardware we claim to have. I don't want to get into another situation where people are crying scam or what not.
People have already sent you the money and they are still ordering....
BFL has stated they would ship their products before the end of October, so just produce and ship
Who do you need to convince that you have the hardware ?
Dear BFL:
If you do send demo units can you please send them to Developers who are going to use them to better the mining software and not just people you think are popular around here?
...Like the way you did it last time... that was very lame.
thank you.
-Tom
FIFO order portion will be on the date the order was paid. If two orders were paid on the same day, the lower order number gets priority.
If we send out demo units, it will only be a few Jalapeno's, which won't amount to more than a few tens of GH, not enough to affect the network hashrate in any appreciable way. We explicitly want to avoid a difficulty spike, which is why we are wanting to release as many units we can at once, so no one has a marked advantage. The demo unit business is not set in stone, I am just trying to get a feel for how the majority of the people want to handle verification that we have the hardware we claim to have. I don't want to get into another situation where people are crying scam or what not.
If we send out demo units, it will only be a few Jalapeno's, which won't amount to more than a few tens of GH, not enough to affect the network hashrate in any appreciable way. We explicitly want to avoid a difficulty spike, which is why we are wanting to release as many units we can at once, so no one has a marked advantage. The demo unit business is not set in stone, I am just trying to get a feel for how the majority of the people want to handle verification that we have the hardware we claim to have. I don't want to get into another situation where people are crying scam or what not.
People have already sent you the money and they are still ordering....
BFL has stated they would ship their products before the end of October, so just produce and ship
Who do you need to convince that you have the hardware ?
FIFO order portion will be on the date the order was paid. If two orders were paid on the same day, the lower order number gets priority.
If we send out demo units, it will only be a few Jalapeno's, which won't amount to more than a few tens of GH, not enough to affect the network hashrate in any appreciable way. We explicitly want to avoid a difficulty spike, which is why we are wanting to release as many units we can at once, so no one has a marked advantage. The demo unit business is not set in stone, I am just trying to get a feel for how the majority of the people want to handle verification that we have the hardware we claim to have. I don't want to get into another situation where people are crying scam or what not.
If we send out demo units, it will only be a few Jalapeno's, which won't amount to more than a few tens of GH, not enough to affect the network hashrate in any appreciable way. We explicitly want to avoid a difficulty spike, which is why we are wanting to release as many units we can at once, so no one has a marked advantage. The demo unit business is not set in stone, I am just trying to get a feel for how the majority of the people want to handle verification that we have the hardware we claim to have. I don't want to get into another situation where people are crying scam or what not.
BFL needs to build a reasonable inventory (i.e., the first 30 days of orders?!?) and then release on their agreed schedule. I would certainly prefer going solely by order # backed up with date of payment receipt...
The SC MiniRig is supposed to be 1TH/s so it won't take many of them to change things if they show up ...
(and aside: basic testing only needs a single card out of it
)
(and aside: basic testing only needs a single card out of it
) 
You realize the network has increased over 5TH (or about 40%) in the past 3 months, without any ASICs? It would take 125 SC Singles or almost 1500 Jalapenos to equal a similar increase. When I'm number crunching to figure ASIC profitability, I've been assuming a 5x increase (to start with), which would be over 2,000 SC Singles, or 24,000 Jalapenos.
I don't think a "handful" of Jalapenos shipped to a test group will increase the difficulty (which I believe he said only Jalapenos would be shipped for testing) by any significant amount.
I don't think a "handful" of Jalapenos shipped to a test group will increase the difficulty (which I believe he said only Jalapenos would be shipped for testing) by any significant amount.
Ok. So I'm late to this discussion but seeing that Josh is already responding to community concerns I'd like to chime in with my ideas/concerns also, I think I have worthwhile comments. Full disclosure - I have 240 GH of BitForce SC Singles on order since day one. I have a tendency to make some very long posts on here so skip to bottom for TL;DR. Some of the following I'm sure has already been suggested by others - regardless I'm going to make my points here also.
My main concern regarding demo units shipped to high profile miners is the network difficulty impact. With such a large leap in efficiency and hashrate density, network difficulty will obviously explode - and those lucky few who have demo units are going to make very large profits while the rest of the network is comprised of relatively mundane GPUs and FPGAs. Even the almighty rigbox will collapse in the face of the Single SC. If BFL can assure that they will not be used for the user's profiteering, and that they will be limited to a test network (of which they receive no BTC), then I am much more comfortable with this idea. I also, however, consider it to be unnecessary anyway. It should be clear just from the order tracking thread that BFL has ample orders and will have ample orders up until the network is so saturated with ASIC that it is no longer cost effective for new purchases for mining. One other option in this regard would be to release videos on Youtube or other sites displaying the product working and clearly showing it's size, power draw, features, design, etc. This would be simple to perform and would put the community at ease I'm sure. I'm also sure that somebody of Inaba's caliber could easily accomplish this. Perhaps also/instead, a livestream could be setup, showing a webcam of the unit in question, and a desktop display of the unit's output. If BFL does decide to release demo units and allow their operators to profit from their extreme mining power, then I would like it to be a handful of Jalapenos - both to limit network impact and profitability. A Jalapeno SC demonstration alone would prove that the technology works as advertised.
Now, for reasons that should be obvious to everybody involved in "ASICgate", delivery time is of critical importance. I did myself order on the first day, while knowing that the intended policy was 1/3 trade-in, 1/3 order date, and 1/3 random access for first month purchases. I was not comfortable with the random order picks, however I paid in the hopes that BFL will ship my product in order. I made considerable effort and sacrifices in order to pay for these units immediately and in full, and I personally feel strongly that those who have done the same and paid up front, literally right from the beginning and have put their trust in BFL should be taken care of and have their units first. However I also appreciate that the stated policy was to have a third of the orders randomized. Now I don't know what BFL's intention with this is. My personal opinion is that a portion of the early order customers - perhaps just the first day if possible - should be protected from what you might call "order sniping". These people have paid up front in full and have had their money in BFLs hands for the longest and should have their orders either shipped out all together on the same day or should have them shipped out in order before any other orders or "random lottery winners" have their orders fulfilled. This seems to be the only fair way to handle things. I do feel that it would be bad for BFL to now renege on their original statement regarding the random orders. However I feel it would be very unfair for somebody such as me, who is one of BFLs best customers, to have their order put on hold by somebody who ordered weeks later and only took my position due to a random lottery system. So I feel the only way to do this would be to protect the first order customers (up to a week perhaps) from the random lottery. I think also that perhaps bundling the orders into 1 week blocks after that would be a good idea. I feel that shipping the entire first month as one huge block order would be logistically difficult and far too large an impact on the network at once. So maybe 1 to 7 days of the first orders get processed and shipped as one large batch together one the same day, with immunity from random order sniping. After that weekly ship outs for the remaining three weeks of orders, with random orders mixed in. Obviously those with low order numbers have a exponentially higher interest in their orders being shipped first rather than being grouped into a batch shipment. I myself will probably be at a disadvantage if orders are grouped into a batch, but I'm not too concerned about that as long as my product is shipped relative the when I ordered (first day). I will feel burned if somebody else gets their order in front of me due to random placement - this shouldn't happen for the first orders - nor for people such as myself who have now spent many thousands of dollars with BFL.
I also noticed that Josh stated that the Minirig SC and Single SC will have the same power consumption as the currently existing FPGA units. This is great news to me and is something I was concerned about. 40 GH/sec for 82 watts is absolutely fantastic. I am trusting in Josh that this is correct. I feel that I can trust him, since he is "one of us" so to speak. I appreciate your time Josh, and know that you are just trying to merge business requirements with community desires. I feel that you're going to make a solid liaison between us and BFL, one that was long overdue, and one that can be trusted due to your solid standing in the community.
On another quick note - if anybody is going to get any demo units, from a strategy and ethical standpoint I feel it needs to be the main developers of the mining software that these will be running primarily ckolivas, kano, and luke-jr of CGMiner/BFGMiner. Even with that in mind, the incredible performance of the Minirig SC is so ridiculous that no more than one demo unit should be allowed on the network at one time.
That's all I have for now. (ALL I have? lol)
TL;DR:
1. No units of larger network impact than Jalapenos should be sent as demo units. Demo units aren't even necessary due to so many orders already. If BFL feel they must provide a demo for whatever reason, then I suggest a livestream or youtube video demo rather than sending superprofitable product to people and blowing up the difficulty for everybody else.
2. First order purchasers should not be penalized for their faith in BFL. They should be rewarded by being isolated from the 1/3 random order lottery. This should be done for up to 7 days of the first orders. They could be sent in order or as one large batch together to be shipped all on the same day (probably hundreds of units). Other orders after that include the random placement possibility, and could be shipped FIFO or by bulk. First entire month of all pre-orders would avoid both previous problems, but isn't practical due to the huge number of devices shipped and an absolutely epic network impact - so I strongly recommend against doing that.
3. I am trusting Josh/Inaba because I feel he represents the community and BFL. While he may have "gone pro" or whatever, I feel he still can empathize with us and understand our needs better than any other BFL liaison here on bitcointalk.
4. ASIC hardware demos, if BFL feels they must be released, need to go to developers who then commit to shipping reliable, solid code - CKolivas, Kano, Luke-jr, etc. No more than one Minirig should be on the network at once, period.
- KIDC
My main concern regarding demo units shipped to high profile miners is the network difficulty impact. With such a large leap in efficiency and hashrate density, network difficulty will obviously explode - and those lucky few who have demo units are going to make very large profits while the rest of the network is comprised of relatively mundane GPUs and FPGAs. Even the almighty rigbox will collapse in the face of the Single SC. If BFL can assure that they will not be used for the user's profiteering, and that they will be limited to a test network (of which they receive no BTC), then I am much more comfortable with this idea. I also, however, consider it to be unnecessary anyway. It should be clear just from the order tracking thread that BFL has ample orders and will have ample orders up until the network is so saturated with ASIC that it is no longer cost effective for new purchases for mining. One other option in this regard would be to release videos on Youtube or other sites displaying the product working and clearly showing it's size, power draw, features, design, etc. This would be simple to perform and would put the community at ease I'm sure. I'm also sure that somebody of Inaba's caliber could easily accomplish this. Perhaps also/instead, a livestream could be setup, showing a webcam of the unit in question, and a desktop display of the unit's output. If BFL does decide to release demo units and allow their operators to profit from their extreme mining power, then I would like it to be a handful of Jalapenos - both to limit network impact and profitability. A Jalapeno SC demonstration alone would prove that the technology works as advertised.
Now, for reasons that should be obvious to everybody involved in "ASICgate", delivery time is of critical importance. I did myself order on the first day, while knowing that the intended policy was 1/3 trade-in, 1/3 order date, and 1/3 random access for first month purchases. I was not comfortable with the random order picks, however I paid in the hopes that BFL will ship my product in order. I made considerable effort and sacrifices in order to pay for these units immediately and in full, and I personally feel strongly that those who have done the same and paid up front, literally right from the beginning and have put their trust in BFL should be taken care of and have their units first. However I also appreciate that the stated policy was to have a third of the orders randomized. Now I don't know what BFL's intention with this is. My personal opinion is that a portion of the early order customers - perhaps just the first day if possible - should be protected from what you might call "order sniping". These people have paid up front in full and have had their money in BFLs hands for the longest and should have their orders either shipped out all together on the same day or should have them shipped out in order before any other orders or "random lottery winners" have their orders fulfilled. This seems to be the only fair way to handle things. I do feel that it would be bad for BFL to now renege on their original statement regarding the random orders. However I feel it would be very unfair for somebody such as me, who is one of BFLs best customers, to have their order put on hold by somebody who ordered weeks later and only took my position due to a random lottery system. So I feel the only way to do this would be to protect the first order customers (up to a week perhaps) from the random lottery. I think also that perhaps bundling the orders into 1 week blocks after that would be a good idea. I feel that shipping the entire first month as one huge block order would be logistically difficult and far too large an impact on the network at once. So maybe 1 to 7 days of the first orders get processed and shipped as one large batch together one the same day, with immunity from random order sniping. After that weekly ship outs for the remaining three weeks of orders, with random orders mixed in. Obviously those with low order numbers have a exponentially higher interest in their orders being shipped first rather than being grouped into a batch shipment. I myself will probably be at a disadvantage if orders are grouped into a batch, but I'm not too concerned about that as long as my product is shipped relative the when I ordered (first day). I will feel burned if somebody else gets their order in front of me due to random placement - this shouldn't happen for the first orders - nor for people such as myself who have now spent many thousands of dollars with BFL.
I also noticed that Josh stated that the Minirig SC and Single SC will have the same power consumption as the currently existing FPGA units. This is great news to me and is something I was concerned about. 40 GH/sec for 82 watts is absolutely fantastic. I am trusting in Josh that this is correct. I feel that I can trust him, since he is "one of us" so to speak. I appreciate your time Josh, and know that you are just trying to merge business requirements with community desires. I feel that you're going to make a solid liaison between us and BFL, one that was long overdue, and one that can be trusted due to your solid standing in the community.
On another quick note - if anybody is going to get any demo units, from a strategy and ethical standpoint I feel it needs to be the main developers of the mining software that these will be running primarily ckolivas, kano, and luke-jr of CGMiner/BFGMiner. Even with that in mind, the incredible performance of the Minirig SC is so ridiculous that no more than one demo unit should be allowed on the network at one time.
That's all I have for now. (ALL I have? lol)
TL;DR:
1. No units of larger network impact than Jalapenos should be sent as demo units. Demo units aren't even necessary due to so many orders already. If BFL feel they must provide a demo for whatever reason, then I suggest a livestream or youtube video demo rather than sending superprofitable product to people and blowing up the difficulty for everybody else.
2. First order purchasers should not be penalized for their faith in BFL. They should be rewarded by being isolated from the 1/3 random order lottery. This should be done for up to 7 days of the first orders. They could be sent in order or as one large batch together to be shipped all on the same day (probably hundreds of units). Other orders after that include the random placement possibility, and could be shipped FIFO or by bulk. First entire month of all pre-orders would avoid both previous problems, but isn't practical due to the huge number of devices shipped and an absolutely epic network impact - so I strongly recommend against doing that.
3. I am trusting Josh/Inaba because I feel he represents the community and BFL. While he may have "gone pro" or whatever, I feel he still can empathize with us and understand our needs better than any other BFL liaison here on bitcointalk.
4. ASIC hardware demos, if BFL feels they must be released, need to go to developers who then commit to shipping reliable, solid code - CKolivas, Kano, Luke-jr, etc. No more than one Minirig should be on the network at once, period.
- KIDC
by the time these show up the diff will be 3.2 million and btc price will be 2 bucks again..
Given that we currently only have 17TH, we have to know what to expect once are all orders out , 20, 50,100,1000TH more? really do not know how many big miners can afford a mini rig SC, but not it takes a lot for a big impact, in the case of single SC any miner would be willing to pay the price.
Are 3 multiplications and 1 sum that would give us much information.
Actually ... no one NEEDS to know what to expect since people have sent BFL their money already.Are 3 multiplications and 1 sum that would give us much information.
The only reason anyone would need to know, would be to help them decide to give their money to BFL.
Too late for that
You will find out when it happens.
I've already sent my money, but would not be bad know if a week after receiving my order be equivalent to mine today at 100MH.
Maybe I want to increase my order, what is good for BFL.
I guess I should have asked here.
Why did the upgrade to 8 Jalapeno's disappear?
Will it come back?
Thanks for the help.
Why did the upgrade to 8 Jalapeno's disappear?
Will it come back?
Thanks for the help.
Given that we currently only have 17TH, we have to know what to expect once are all orders out , 20, 50,100,1000TH more? really do not know how many big miners can afford a mini rig SC, but not it takes a lot for a big impact, in the case of single SC any miner would be willing to pay the price.
Are 3 multiplications and 1 sum that would give us much information.
Actually ... no one NEEDS to know what to expect since people have sent BFL their money already.Are 3 multiplications and 1 sum that would give us much information.
The only reason anyone would need to know, would be to help them decide to give their money to BFL.
Too late for that
You will find out when it happens.
Given that we currently only have 17TH, we have to know what to expect once are all orders out , 20, 50,100,1000TH more? really do not know how many big miners can afford a mini rig SC, but not it takes a lot for a big impact, in the case of single SC any miner would be willing to pay the price.
Are 3 multiplications and 1 sum that would give us much information.
Are 3 multiplications and 1 sum that would give us much information.
Like I said, we do not want to ship out just a handful of orders in the first batch and trickle them out. We want to ship a large quantity in the first batch.
Let me ask you (and by extension everyone else): Do you want us to ship out a small quantity of units first and then a larger quantity later (thereby giving the first shipments a major advantage) or hold on to the units until we have enough (I am still going over what the "enough" is, specifically) to satisfy a large portion of the first set of orders at once?
Its funny, because you make a statement indicating you don't want to ship small orders, but then turn around and ask if the community wants you to ship small quantities. That's what is upsetting.Let me ask you (and by extension everyone else): Do you want us to ship out a small quantity of units first and then a larger quantity later (thereby giving the first shipments a major advantage) or hold on to the units until we have enough (I am still going over what the "enough" is, specifically) to satisfy a large portion of the first set of orders at once?
For me personally, a small starting shipment (that still includes the first day or two) makes sense. Everyone is worried about driving up the difficulty in a spike. Letting them trickle out lets the difficulty trickle up more slowly. Although to say anything we need about ten times as much information; When would the second shipment be? How large would the second shipment be? Will the production rate be ramped up as time goes on? Will you be able to handle order volume after clearing the pre-orders? and on and on and on.
Without asking how many orders exist until now, or which model ...
Can I ask how much is the hashrate total sum of the orders? I think it's an interesting info.
This would be very interesting to me as well, even if it's just a ballpark answer (down to 0.1 TH maybe, that would take 28 Jalapenos). Can I ask how much is the hashrate total sum of the orders? I think it's an interesting info.
Without asking how many orders exist until now, or which model ...
Can I ask how much is the hashrate total sum of the orders? I think it's an interesting info.
Can I ask how much is the hashrate total sum of the orders? I think it's an interesting info.
Like I said, we do not want to ship out just a handful of orders in the first batch and trickle them out. We want to ship a large quantity in the first batch.
Let me ask you (and by extension everyone else): Do you want us to ship out a small quantity of units first and then a larger quantity later (thereby giving the first shipments a major advantage) or hold on to the units until we have enough (I am still going over what the "enough" is, specifically) to satisfy a large portion of the first set of orders at once?
My vote is for BFL to deliver on what it has already stated:Let me ask you (and by extension everyone else): Do you want us to ship out a small quantity of units first and then a larger quantity later (thereby giving the first shipments a major advantage) or hold on to the units until we have enough (I am still going over what the "enough" is, specifically) to satisfy a large portion of the first set of orders at once?
1) Orders will be shipped according to the 1/3 FIFO, 1/3 Trade-ins, 1/3 random schedule
2) Orders will be shipped in October
From the sounds of things, it seems like you won't have a long enough time to build up a large shipment. Hence, my vote is for a handful of orders to be sent out (according to the "1/3rd schedule") and a trickle out, thereafter.
Any way you slice it, someone is going to have the advantage of receiving hardware first, whether they get shipped the units faster by living in the midwest USA; or placed their order the quickest; or are buddy-buddy with BFL. Let's stick to the plan you, BFL, have already set in place and give that advantage to those who placed orders first -- it's the fairest option!
So, if testnet exists for testing purposes wouldn't it be safer/more fair to use it to test the ASIC units.
The rise in difficulty alone on testnet would be a validation of the design for all to observe.
Releasing test units prior to batch delivery is going to piss people off even with the best of intentions - particularly if it's unnecessary.
Let me ask you (and by extension everyone else): Do you want us to ship out a small quantity of units first and then a larger quantity later (thereby giving the first shipments a major advantage) or hold on to the units until we have enough (I am still going over what the "enough" is, specifically) to satisfy a large portion of the first set of orders at once?
It was my impression that the overwhelming majority wanted the playing field to be as level as possible, thus holding on to the orders until there's enough to ship a reasonable quantity would be preferred over shipping out a handful of each right away? Is that thinking incorrect?
A larger quantity later, but this is only if BFL will not be "test" mining on this equipment the whole time, driving difficulty skyhigh, while none of the paying customers get any benefit
Jump to: