Hellooooo FC what's up?!
Jutarul maybe? any tangible infos?
Topic: ASICMiner BE300S Samples Arrived, <0.2W/G Achieved at Board Level - page 2. (Read 66449 times)
January 26, 2015, 10:12:04 AM
could we get it over with the "i think/hope/blah" rhetoric regarding AM?
Hellooooo FC what's up?!
Jutarul maybe? any tangible infos?
Hellooooo FC what's up?!
Jutarul maybe? any tangible infos?
January 26, 2015, 10:06:08 AM
I think that tape out was done earlier. SHA256 chips are easy design (FC already designed few) and you can go straight to mass production without sampling. Sample chips were only an answer to how much these chips will be off specs and thus how much to order. FC learns on his mistakes and this time didn't ordered tons of chips that are 2 times of specs... Samples proved that chip is even better, so he could finally put a number into ordering form...
January 26, 2015, 09:27:53 AM
I believe they taped out the final design of the BE300 in mid/late december and it's already submitted, the masks have been fabricated and the chips are in production right now. Come on, FC knows his job, man 
January 26, 2015, 09:09:02 AM
Like I said, full production was scheduled for Feb-March and samples were early. There's been no indications of any delays so why would you assume that the schedule has changed?
Do you have any evidence to show that BitFury has a better chip that will be out in the same time frame? BitFury (and others) said that they'd have 0.2 J/Gh ASICs (based on simulations) in a similar time frame. Have you seen any evidence of that? We know that AM have had 0.2 J/Gh chips since Dec 10.
Do you have any evidence to show that BitFury has a better chip that will be out in the same time frame? BitFury (and others) said that they'd have 0.2 J/Gh ASICs (based on simulations) in a similar time frame. Have you seen any evidence of that? We know that AM have had 0.2 J/Gh chips since Dec 10.
i have no evidence, only hearsay.
we do know, as you say, that AM has samples back that are 0.2 j/gh... but as mentioned, we don't know when they taped out (nor if they have), and production will be approx 2 months after they tapeout and pay the NRE. they could still in theory deliver march, just, if they tapeout this month. but unless they've already taped out in december, the chance of them having production silicon in feb isn't too good. and now its march you say, someone else was quoting 'amhash' as saying it was feb. both dates are possible if they've taped out. so do we know if they've taped out?
How can you have sample chips without a tape out?
They have produced samples using a multi project wafer. They haven't had to pay the high nre for the masks to be produced.
A shuttle run (mpw) costs only hundreds of thousands of dollars as the costs are shared with lots of other manufacturers. Each customer only gets a few samples of their chips. Maybe a few hundred or less.
Once the samples are tested and everyone's happy with their chip. And no further changes are made then the nre is paid and full mask set is produced. That costs ballpark 2-3 million and the first order for a bunch of wafers probably also could cost 2-3 million so the initial order with nre and mask set could easily be a 5-6m cash payments (in advanc) for 28nm. Thus it's unknown at this time whether asicminer has taped out and paid the nre for the masks or for production wafers to be made. All this takes 2-3 months.
In bitcoinland many ASIC companies havnt bothered making a shuttle and have gone direct to production. Higher risk but it has usually worked.
Tweaking/scaling up the mask happens after tape-out because without a (preliminary) physical design, sample chips can't be fabricated. The RTL code can't go straight on the silicon!
Quote
Tape-out is usually a cause for celebration by everyone who worked on the project, followed by trepidation awaiting the first article, the first physical samples of a chip from the manufacturing facility (semiconductor foundry).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tape-out
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tape-out
January 26, 2015, 08:45:38 AM
Like I said, full production was scheduled for Feb-March and samples were early. There's been no indications of any delays so why would you assume that the schedule has changed?
Do you have any evidence to show that BitFury has a better chip that will be out in the same time frame? BitFury (and others) said that they'd have 0.2 J/Gh ASICs (based on simulations) in a similar time frame. Have you seen any evidence of that? We know that AM have had 0.2 J/Gh chips since Dec 10.
Do you have any evidence to show that BitFury has a better chip that will be out in the same time frame? BitFury (and others) said that they'd have 0.2 J/Gh ASICs (based on simulations) in a similar time frame. Have you seen any evidence of that? We know that AM have had 0.2 J/Gh chips since Dec 10.
i have no evidence, only hearsay.
we do know, as you say, that AM has samples back that are 0.2 j/gh... but as mentioned, we don't know when they taped out (nor if they have), and production will be approx 2 months after they tapeout and pay the NRE. they could still in theory deliver march, just, if they tapeout this month. but unless they've already taped out in december, the chance of them having production silicon in feb isn't too good. and now its march you say, someone else was quoting 'amhash' as saying it was feb. both dates are possible if they've taped out. so do we know if they've taped out?
How can you have sample chips without a tape out?
They have produced samples using a multi project wafer. They haven't had to pay the high nre for the masks to be produced.
A shuttle run (mpw) costs only hundreds of thousands of dollars as the costs are shared with lots of other manufacturers. Each customer only gets a few samples of their chips. Maybe a few hundred or less.
Once the samples are tested and everyone's happy with their chip. And no further changes are made then the nre is paid and full mask set is produced. That costs ballpark 2-3 million and the first order for a bunch of wafers probably also could cost 2-3 million so the initial order with nre and mask set could easily be a 5-6m cash payments (in advanc) for 28nm. Thus it's unknown at this time whether asicminer has taped out and paid the nre for the masks or for production wafers to be made. All this takes 2-3 months.
In bitcoinland many ASIC companies havnt bothered making a shuttle and have gone direct to production. Higher risk but it has usually worked.
January 26, 2015, 08:10:23 AM
Like I said, full production was scheduled for Feb-March and samples were early. There's been no indications of any delays so why would you assume that the schedule has changed?
Do you have any evidence to show that BitFury has a better chip that will be out in the same time frame? BitFury (and others) said that they'd have 0.2 J/Gh ASICs (based on simulations) in a similar time frame. Have you seen any evidence of that? We know that AM have had 0.2 J/Gh chips since Dec 10.
Do you have any evidence to show that BitFury has a better chip that will be out in the same time frame? BitFury (and others) said that they'd have 0.2 J/Gh ASICs (based on simulations) in a similar time frame. Have you seen any evidence of that? We know that AM have had 0.2 J/Gh chips since Dec 10.
i have no evidence, only hearsay.
we do know, as you say, that AM has samples back that are 0.2 j/gh... but as mentioned, we don't know when they taped out (nor if they have), and production will be approx 2 months after they tapeout and pay the NRE. they could still in theory deliver march, just, if they tapeout this month. but unless they've already taped out in december, the chance of them having production silicon in feb isn't too good. and now its march you say, someone else was quoting 'amhash' as saying it was feb. both dates are possible if they've taped out. so do we know if they've taped out?
How can you have sample chips without a tape out?
January 26, 2015, 07:41:15 AM
So as most of us I guess. 
January 24, 2015, 08:10:41 AM
Asic Miner will be late not BFL late but late as in 2 to 5 weeks.
Zero evidence on my part but they have had a pattern of a little late more then once.
So I figure history will repeat.
Hoping this gear does not over heat and run crazy hot. I want to have one in my hands sooner rather then later.
Zero evidence on my part but they have had a pattern of a little late more then once.
So I figure history will repeat.
Hoping this gear does not over heat and run crazy hot. I want to have one in my hands sooner rather then later.
January 24, 2015, 08:00:06 AM
The AMHash quote is from a later date than FriedCat's so it could be based on more recent information. Like I said, there's no reason to assume that the schedule has changed from a chip-out date of Feb-March. They got the chips on Dec 10 and testing was supposed to take 3-10 days.
January 24, 2015, 07:42:28 AM
Like I said, full production was scheduled for Feb-March and samples were early. There's been no indications of any delays so why would you assume that the schedule has changed?
Do you have any evidence to show that BitFury has a better chip that will be out in the same time frame? BitFury (and others) said that they'd have 0.2 J/Gh ASICs (based on simulations) in a similar time frame. Have you seen any evidence of that? We know that AM have had 0.2 J/Gh chips since Dec 10.
Do you have any evidence to show that BitFury has a better chip that will be out in the same time frame? BitFury (and others) said that they'd have 0.2 J/Gh ASICs (based on simulations) in a similar time frame. Have you seen any evidence of that? We know that AM have had 0.2 J/Gh chips since Dec 10.
i have no evidence, only hearsay.
we do know, as you say, that AM has samples back that are 0.2 j/gh... but as mentioned, we don't know when they taped out (nor if they have), and production will be approx 2 months after they tapeout and pay the NRE. they could still in theory deliver march, just, if they tapeout this month. but unless they've already taped out in december, the chance of them having production silicon in feb isn't too good. and now its march you say, someone else was quoting 'amhash' as saying it was feb. both dates are possible if they've taped out. so do we know if they've taped out?
January 24, 2015, 07:19:38 AM
Like I said, full production was scheduled for Feb-March and samples were early. There's been no indications of any delays so why would you assume that the schedule has changed?
Do you have any evidence to show that BitFury has a better chip that will be out in the same time frame? BitFury (and others) said that they'd have 0.2 J/Gh ASICs (based on simulations) in a similar time frame. Have you seen any evidence of that? We know that AM have had 0.2 J/Gh chips since Dec 10.
Do you have any evidence to show that BitFury has a better chip that will be out in the same time frame? BitFury (and others) said that they'd have 0.2 J/Gh ASICs (based on simulations) in a similar time frame. Have you seen any evidence of that? We know that AM have had 0.2 J/Gh chips since Dec 10.
January 24, 2015, 06:35:01 AM
Update
Development
The 28nm BE300 engineering batch tapeout was in September 16 with TSMC.
...
14nm/16nm projects are at pre-evaluation and pre-design stage. It has to be done
in 2015 but the starting time of placing orders depends on overall gain vs (NRE/R&D/risks).
...
The mass production time of BE300 in terms of chip-out date is February to March, 2015.
Development
The 28nm BE300 engineering batch tapeout was in September 16 with TSMC.
...
14nm/16nm projects are at pre-evaluation and pre-design stage. It has to be done
in 2015 but the starting time of placing orders depends on overall gain vs (NRE/R&D/risks).
...
The mass production time of BE300 in terms of chip-out date is February to March, 2015.
December 16 is to be expected for us to get the chips. Testing time varies at 3-10 days since we had much more preparation work already done this time.
They got those chips about a week early it seems so they seem to be on track and we've heard nothing that would suggest any delays.
those are engineering samples. they come from a set of wafers called a Shuttle - or MPW - Multi Project Wafer. these are wafers that contains lots of customers samples on the same wafer.
They're not production wafers, and the huge NRE will not have had to be paid for those samples.
For the real production, a multi million dollar NRE will have to be paid, plus an order for several 'lots' of wafer production (also multi million dollar). its a big commitment at a time when the price of bitcoin is very low and the economics of taping out a new 28nm chip are a painful decision. It'd be surprising if friedcat has pressed the button on this expensive tape-out and production, especially when he knows that bitfury has a better chip (and presumably others) also out in the same timeframe.
January 24, 2015, 06:16:33 AM
Update
Development
The 28nm BE300 engineering batch tapeout was in September 16 with TSMC.
...
14nm/16nm projects are at pre-evaluation and pre-design stage. It has to be done
in 2015 but the starting time of placing orders depends on overall gain vs (NRE/R&D/risks).
...
The mass production time of BE300 in terms of chip-out date is February to March, 2015.
Development
The 28nm BE300 engineering batch tapeout was in September 16 with TSMC.
...
14nm/16nm projects are at pre-evaluation and pre-design stage. It has to be done
in 2015 but the starting time of placing orders depends on overall gain vs (NRE/R&D/risks).
...
The mass production time of BE300 in terms of chip-out date is February to March, 2015.
December 16 is to be expected for us to get the chips. Testing time varies at 3-10 days since we had much more preparation work already done this time.
They got those chips about a week early it seems so they seem to be on track and we've heard nothing that would suggest any delays.
January 24, 2015, 04:08:51 AM
Tldr AMHash = ASICMiner
anyway, my point is that unless you hear it from friedcat that they've taped out, why would you assume they've taped out yet? no where does it say it. and even in the post from amhash in nov that says silicon due in feb.. that was presumably before tapeout had occurred so theres a lot of uncertainty in that statement and its datapoint is old and stale. it costs a lot of cash to tapeout, and with bitcoin at the price it is now, the economics to justify taping out are stacked against you. sure you could do it, but would you spend millions pushing that button in the current climate?
January 23, 2015, 08:55:04 PM
does anyone know if asicminer has 'taped out' and produced masks for the be300? ie, is it in production?
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.9678661
thanks... its not quite the same thing. do we know who amhash is? do they represent friedcat or are they a customer? all we know is that someone (who wasn't friedcat) said in november they would have chips back in feb. but until we hear it from the horses mouth or from someone definitely representing him, then i don't think we know for certain that they've taped out and will definitely have the chips back in feb. or whenever. all we know is they continue to test the samples, but the samples aren't from a production batch and are independent from that.
thats cryptic and not exactly helpful. have you seen a tapeout announcement or friedcat recently stating availability of production chips?
Tldr AMHash = ASICMiner
January 23, 2015, 07:35:31 PM
does anyone know if asicminer has 'taped out' and produced masks for the be300? ie, is it in production?
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.9678661
thanks... its not quite the same thing. do we know who amhash is? do they represent friedcat or are they a customer? all we know is that someone (who wasn't friedcat) said in november they would have chips back in feb. but until we hear it from the horses mouth or from someone definitely representing him, then i don't think we know for certain that they've taped out and will definitely have the chips back in feb. or whenever. all we know is they continue to test the samples, but the samples aren't from a production batch and are independent from that.
thats cryptic and not exactly helpful. have you seen a tapeout announcement or friedcat recently stating availability of production chips?
January 23, 2015, 07:08:37 PM
does anyone know if asicminer has 'taped out' and produced masks for the be300? ie, is it in production?
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.9678661
thanks... its not quite the same thing. do we know who amhash is? do they represent friedcat or are they a customer? all we know is that someone (who wasn't friedcat) said in november they would have chips back in feb. but until we hear it from the horses mouth or from someone definitely representing him, then i don't think we know for certain that they've taped out and will definitely have the chips back in feb. or whenever. all we know is they continue to test the samples, but the samples aren't from a production batch and are independent from that.
January 23, 2015, 06:39:10 PM
does anyone know if asicminer has 'taped out' and produced masks for the be300? ie, is it in production?
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.9678661
thanks... its not quite the same thing. do we know who amhash is? do they represent friedcat or are they a customer? all we know is that someone (who wasn't friedcat) said in november they would have chips back in feb. but until we hear it from the horses mouth or from someone definitely representing him, then i don't think we know for certain that they've taped out and will definitely have the chips back in feb. or whenever. all we know is they continue to test the samples, but the samples aren't from a production batch and are independent from that.
January 23, 2015, 05:19:25 AM
does anyone know if asicminer has 'taped out' and produced masks for the be300? ie, is it in production?
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.9678661
January 23, 2015, 05:01:41 AM
thats a good point. does anyone know if asicminer has 'taped out' and produced masks for the be300? ie, is it in production?
the samples that have been shown so far are from a shuttle, and thus they wont have taped out, paid a multimillion NRE and produced masks to make those samples.
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