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Topic: ASICMiner BE300S Samples Arrived, <0.2W/G Achieved at Board Level - page 9. (Read 66449 times)

legendary
Activity: 3374
Merit: 1859
Curmudgeonly hardware guy
So uh, so when do we get to see the Vcore/GH curve?

It might be misleading to post it for the BE300S if he thinks that they're going to be significantly different than BE300 - which its suggested it will be.

Right, but at least it'd be a good starting point. We have really good data on expected W/GH at various GH setpoints, but without knowing either the I or the V, the W is basically useless except for cooling concerns and overarching "efficiency" marketability. Sure we can plan heatsinks, but not string lengths or VRM outputs or anything. Even in accurate data is still data.
legendary
Activity: 1274
Merit: 1004
FC, you can probably dispel a little confusion here. The MPW samples you have and are testing are not in the same package as the final chips will be in. The production chips will look significantly different than the test chips, and the board package will be different.
Is that correct?
BE200 -- QFN 8x8 or 9x9
BE300S -- FCLGA 5x5
BE300 Final Version -- FCLGA nxn (n not determined yet)

QFN in a low voltage setting introduces too much overhead, so although we wanted compatibility hard, we chose a different package.
What do you expect the Tjc to be for the top and bottom on the production chips?
legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1185
dogiecoin.com
So uh, so when do we get to see the Vcore/GH curve?

It might be misleading to post it for the BE300S if he thinks that they're going to be significantly different than BE300 - which its suggested it will be.
legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1185
dogiecoin.com
The spring will be an interesting time for sure.  I hope FC and AM build a decent size self mine with their cheap power in China.
AMHash takes 47$/Ths/month (0.8W/Ghs) = 0.08 USD/kwh - is it a cheap power?

There is cheaper power in CN, however there are plenty of other reasons that manufacturers want farms in other countries even if they're more expensive.
legendary
Activity: 896
Merit: 1001
The spring will be an interesting time for sure.  I hope FC and AM build a decent size self mine with their cheap power in China.
AMHash takes 47$/Ths/month (0.8W/Ghs) = 0.08 USD/kwh - is it a cheap power?

You have to figure maintenance, internet, staff, datacenter are all included in that $47 / Th/month.  Cheap power would be ~$0.03 / kwh.
member
Activity: 118
Merit: 10
The spring will be an interesting time for sure.  I hope FC and AM build a decent size self mine with their cheap power in China.
AMHash takes 47$/Ths/month (0.8W/Ghs) = 0.08 USD/kwh - is it a cheap power?
legendary
Activity: 3374
Merit: 1859
Curmudgeonly hardware guy
Heck yeah. PCB costs would suck but I would totally build a miner with DIP. BGA, not so much.

The backward compatibility idea was pretty great, especially when they open-sourced BE200 design, because a lot of folks were working on stuff hoping they'd be able to reuse the same design. Would have been nice, and I'm glad they at least tried to make it happen.

So uh, so when do we get to see the Vcore/GH curve?
legendary
Activity: 1029
Merit: 1000
....
even if you have to go 40 pin DIP, people will work around it
....
Yeah, I miss alot 40 pin DIP packages...
Those were good times of C51 uC...
hero member
Activity: 767
Merit: 500
FC, you can probably dispel a little confusion here. The MPW samples you have and are testing are not in the same package as the final chips will be in. The production chips will look significantly different than the test chips, and the board package will be different.
Is that correct?
BE200 -- QFN 8x8 or 9x9
BE300S -- FCLGA 5x5
BE300 Final Version -- FCLGA nxn (n not determined yet)

QFN in a low voltage setting introduces too much overhead, so although we wanted compatibility hard, we chose a different package.

i thought Flip Chip Land Grid Array (FCLGA), would require pins, or solder balls on the PCB, to connect to the land grid at the bottom of the package. Something like them socket'ed intel cpus, you know, they flipped the chip for the bond pads to face down, for the bond wires to be all inside the substrate.

these BE300S's still look like Quad Flat No-leads (QFN)

now Flip Chip Ball Grid Array (FCBGA), like you'd see on DDR2/3/4 ram, is what i thought the setup would be like.
..if you want exposed dies, you could follow the path of what intel does with one of their gigabit Ethernet controller chips, have the dies backside flush with the top of the substrate. or you could copy knc or cointerra and have bare dies just sitting on the substrate and held by glue.

on the note of compatibility, there was no compatibility between the BE100 and the BE200.  we all like the "drop in and run" idea, but i've never seen too much backwards compatibility with packages like this. so don't kick yourself over it, make the package the way the chips need it, even if you have to go 40 pin DIP, people will work around it

... am i rambling on?
donator
Activity: 848
Merit: 1005
FC, you can probably dispel a little confusion here. The MPW samples you have and are testing are not in the same package as the final chips will be in. The production chips will look significantly different than the test chips, and the board package will be different.
Is that correct?
BE200 -- QFN 8x8 or 9x9
BE300S -- FCLGA 5x5
BE300 Final Version -- FCLGA nxn (n not determined yet)

QFN in a low voltage setting introduces too much overhead, so although we wanted compatibility hard, we chose a different package.
hero member
Activity: 489
Merit: 500
Immersionist
... the MPW samples, and they aren't FCLGA....
No pictures of chip itself so we don't know. There's no reason that it couldn't be a FCLGA... It's not a big processor with over thousand pins so it dosn't need to look like one....
There are pictures of the chip mounted to the board, as well as the board mounting pattern. While you could do a flip chip like that an encapsulate it, it would seem weird to do so with those massive power and ground pads at the bottom if you're planning on pulling most of the heat out the top. You can get overmolded FC packages, but the thermals out the top aren't usually great.

I will concede it could be FCLGA though.

Sometimes things are different than they seem, especially in China.

I have seen these small LGA packages in sensors (from Analog Devices) for instance.

legendary
Activity: 1029
Merit: 1000
... the MPW samples, and they aren't FCLGA....
No pictures of chip itself so we don't know. There's no reason that it couldn't be a FCLGA... It's not a big processor with over thousand pins so it dosn't need to look like one....
There are pictures of the chip mounted to the board, as well as the board mounting pattern. While you could do a flip chip like that an encapsulate it, it would seem weird to do so with those massive power and ground pads at the bottom if you're planning on pulling most of the heat out the top. You can get overmolded FC packages, but the thermals out the top aren't usually great.

I will concede it could be FCLGA though.
I'm also curious how friedcat want to achive better performance in mass production chips. As for now we only know that with samples he achieved better specs than simulations. 6GH/s | 0.343w/g  vs.  7.2GH/s | 0.2495W/G
legendary
Activity: 1274
Merit: 1004
... the MPW samples, and they aren't FCLGA....
No pictures of chip itself so we don't know. There's no reason that it couldn't be a FCLGA... It's not a big processor with over thousand pins so it dosn't need to look like one....
There are pictures of the chip mounted to the board, as well as the board mounting pattern. While you could do a flip chip like that an encapsulate it, it would seem weird to do so with those massive power and ground pads at the bottom if you're planning on pulling most of the heat out the top. You can get overmolded FC packages, but the thermals out the top aren't usually great.

I will concede it could be FCLGA though.
legendary
Activity: 1029
Merit: 1000
... the MPW samples, and they aren't FCLGA....
No pictures of chip itself so we don't know. There's no reason that it couldn't be a FCLGA... It's not a big processor with over thousand pins so it dosn't need to look like one....
legendary
Activity: 1274
Merit: 1004
The package turns from QFN to Flip-Chip-LGA,
Package propably will be the same.
These two are inherently incompatible statements Smiley

I was reffering to this:
Quote
...The MPW samples...final chips...
The ones that are mounted onto the boards in the pictures shown are the MPW samples, and they aren't FCLGA. If the production chips are to be FCLGA then it would make sense that the package is different between the MPW samples and final chips.
legendary
Activity: 1029
Merit: 1000
The package turns from QFN to Flip-Chip-LGA,
Package propably will be the same.
These two are inherently incompatible statements Smiley

I was reffering to this:
Quote
...The MPW samples...final chips...
hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 500
FUN > ROI
The package turns from QFN to Flip-Chip-LGA,
Package propably will be the same.
These two are inherently incompatible statements Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1029
Merit: 1000
Will the BE300 boards fit into the Prisma fan/heatsink body?
The package turns from QFN to Flip-Chip-LGA, which means that
most heat dissipates to the upper side of the chip instead of PCB,
so... not very appropriate to stick to the piple-like heat dissipation
design.


FC, you can probably dispel a little confusion here. The MPW samples you have and are testing are not in the same package as the final chips will be in. The production chips will look significantly different than the test chips, and the board package will be different.
Is that correct?
Package propably will be the same. I'm quessing that die inside will be little different (more "cores").
legendary
Activity: 1274
Merit: 1004
Will the BE300 boards fit into the Prisma fan/heatsink body?
The package turns from QFN to Flip-Chip-LGA, which means that
most heat dissipates to the upper side of the chip instead of PCB,
so... not very appropriate to stick to the piple-like heat dissipation
design.


FC, you can probably dispel a little confusion here. The MPW samples you have and are testing are not in the same package as the final chips will be in. The production chips will look significantly different than the test chips, and the board package will be different.
Is that correct?
legendary
Activity: 1190
Merit: 1000
Will the BE300 boards fit into the Prisma fan/heatsink body?
The package turns from QFN to Flip-Chip-LGA, which means that
most heat dissipates to the upper side of the chip instead of PCB,
so... not very appropriate to stick to the piple-like heat dissipation
design.





And the chip size is 5mm x 5mm ?
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