Topic: BetCoin.ag closed account and stole around 1 BTC - page 7. (Read 3901 times)

I did read it.  Though I admit that I skimmed (what was) the middle of the thread (when I first found it); therefore, I just went back and reviewed all of your posts again, from your (exceedingly long) OP forward—reviewed them twice, from start to finish.  This is what I found with regard to the above-stated issue:

OP:

Post #17 on Page 1:

(By the way, no:  Bitcoin is not anonymous, as I have been telling people since I was at Newbie rank on this forum.  Much though I dislike it, that is the reality.)

From my experience with investigations, your story sounds like it is probably a lie.  Probably.  It could be true.  That is why in the part that you snipped, I said that the wallet evidence is “probable cause”:

Don’t take that too personally.  I don’t know you personally.  You must understand, many people do lie about these things—so, that is what it sounds like.

I have seen alleged multi-accounters lie about wallet evidence many times.  Thus far, I have seen one of these stories turn out to be true, exactly once—and yes, I felt bad for that person.  You would be the second one.  But I doubt that you will be, when it sounds like the wallet evidence is the least of your problems here.

Now, I must ask:  Why do you pretend that the wallet evidence is nothing?  Even if your unusual story is true, it still looks suspicious, does it not?  Please look at it from the perspective of someone who is trying to catch cheaters—someone who has been lied to by many cheaters!  I think that that way, you will be more successful in communicating your position.  (And thus is my attempt to mediate the dispute, even though I am not the mediator.)

Quote from: zikzik on November 02, 2020, 08:12:28 PM

I think it is very very unfair that you are making assumptions based what betcoin.ag lied in this thread, without even giving the "defendant" here a FAIR chance to defend himself (at least listen to what he had to say about the whole situation)

this makes me sad  

Your such calumny is NOT “FAIR” to me, given how evenly I have treated both sides—even with suggestions for Betcoin.AG to improve their handling of these matters, which they may or may not appreciate.  I have tried to be constructive.  And I should advise you, attempting to play on my emotions will not work.  I am notoriously hard-hearted; I care only about the truth, not about feelings.

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zikzik, I observe that you have pointedly ignored my inference about what other evidence Betcoin.AG seems to be claiming to have.  If my inference is correct, I do not want to see that evidence myself; being granted access would impose on me a responsibility that I am unwilling to take, given that I am only a bystander who stumbled into this thread by happenstance.  It is why I keep saying that the mediator needs to take a look at it, and why I have been suggesting in bold letters what types of questions the mediator should ask.  I think that that is very fair to you, and also fair to Betcoin.AG.

If you are innocent, I wish you good luck and a fair mediation so that you can get your money back.  But if you are guilty, rot in hell!  I don’t like cheaters.  I am quite serious about this:

Quote from: nullius on November 02, 2020, 06:46:05 PM

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Edited further to add...

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A message to cheaters:

It is easy to get away with malicious and abusive behaviour on naïve sites.  —Not easy on sites that are serious about catching you.

I know of open-source code that can do at least some part of what Betcoin.AG claims their security system can do.  It’s not a drop-in solution; it may require expensive consultant work to integrate into a site.  I am also aware that there exist proprietary commercial systems that can catch you red-handed, if you try to multi-account from a banned region from behind a VPN.  These are the same types of systems also used by banks, large cryptocurrency exchanges, and other financial institutions; the systems are expensive, and (unfortunately, in my opinion) quite commonplace in the industry.  On non-gambling sites, you are being invisibly checked by such systems every day.

I am not saying that that’s what happened here.  I am saying that it is a major issue that the mediator should inquire about.  If my inferences are incorrect, then the outcome may or may not be unfavourable to Betcoin.AG, depending on the total weight of all the other evidence.

Moreover, I am warning cheaters that you will get caught—sometime, sooner or later, at some site—and it will hurt!  Evading detection requires serious skills.  People with serious skills usually apply them to activities more productive than multi-account abuse on gambling sites.

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Now, besides this...

Quote from: nullius on November 02, 2020, 05:08:25 PM

Quote from: zikzik on November 02, 2020, 04:46:54 PM

is there a security reason for them not to exactly specify the balance of my account (if there is a chance that mediator will find me not guilty and i should get my btc back) ?

I think that’s a more reasonable question.  Anyone from Betcoin.AG want to address that?

Quote from: nullius on November 02, 2020, 05:52:07 PM

There may be other reasons for them to be reluctant to answer any of your questions, given your approach.  I do suggest that they should clear this up, at least:  A statement of the balances for the accounts in question, at the time of the accounts being closed for alleged fraud.  If they have sound reason for not disclosing that publicly, then I suggest that they should say so, rather than ignoring the question.

...is there anything else to discuss in this thread, pending mediation?  I think that SBR should step up and contact the parties, when both sides reasonably want for that to happen ASAP!

Quote from: nullius on November 02, 2020, 09:01:23 AM

I think it’s clear that both parties to this dispute can agree:  A prompt disposition of the mediation request would be in everybody’s best interest.

Quote from: Betcoin.AG on November 01, 2020, 09:46:49 AM

We have reached out to SBR to see if they will be taking this case and also suggested several other routes the player can take to receive mediation. Thank you.

Quote from: zikzik on November 01, 2020, 09:34:39 AM

I have filed a claim 4 days ago and apart from an automated response acknowledgement of the claim recipience, i  have not heard a word from them ...

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Edit:  Minor bugfixes; added some anchor tags.

i am sorry, but this statement just proves that you did not read the original post in this forum.
I think it is very very unfair that you are making assumptions based what betcoin.ag lied in this thread, without even giving the "defendant" here a FAIR chance to defend himself (at least listen to what he had to say about the whole situation)

this makes me sad 

From some of their posts on this thread (including, but not limited to some that I have quoted), I took it as implied that Betcoin.AG must have some other forensic evidence connecting the accounts and identifying your region.

I strongly urge that the mediator should request this evidence from Betcoin.AG, and should NOT show it to you.  If the evidence does not exist, of course, then the mediator should determine that, too; and in any event, all available evidence should be weighed fairly as to both sides of the dispute.

Quote from: zikzik on November 02, 2020, 06:07:20 PM

The other "evidence" they have is the same bitcoin wallet address in deposit to my account, and account of the other guy. But is that against the rules? Does it prove anything?

It is probative.  Indeed, I think that that in itself rises to the level of probable cause to believe that the accounts are connected, regardless of any other evidence.

So, you admit and stipulate to the wallet evidence?  I have heard so many excuses about that type of evidence, from people who were guilty and caught dead to rights!  In the real world, it is possible but improbable that “the same bitcoin wallet address” would “deposit to [your] account, and account of the other guy”, if the “other guy” is not actually you.  And if the “other guy” is alleged by you to be some unrelated person in another country from amongst a large crowd following your bets, it is highly improbable.  It requires a clear, sensible explanation.  (I can imagine some unusual scenarios in which this could occur; but for obvious reasons, I will not suggest any.)

I think that the mediator should weigh the preponderance of the evidence, which is a higher standard—but that is just my opinion.

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Edit:  Minor clarification about the two issues of alleged multi-accounting and alleged banned region.  Still being picky.

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Edited further to add...

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A message to cheaters:

It is easy to get away with malicious and abusive behaviour on naïve sites.  —Not easy on sites that are serious about catching you.

I know of open-source code that can do at least some part of what Betcoin.AG claims their security system can do.  It’s not a drop-in solution; it may require expensive consultant work to integrate into a site.  I am also aware that there exist proprietary commercial systems that can catch you red-handed, if you try to multi-account from a banned region from behind a VPN.  These are the same types of systems also used by banks, large cryptocurrency exchanges, and other financial institutions; the systems are expensive, and (unfortunately, in my opinion) quite commonplace in the industry.  On non-gambling sites, you are being invisibly checked by such systems every day.

I am not saying that that’s what happened here.  I am saying that it is a major issue that the mediator should inquire about.  If my inferences are incorrect, then the outcome may or may not be unfavourable to Betcoin.AG, depending on the total weight of all the other evidence.

Moreover, I am warning cheaters that you will get caught—sometime, sooner or later, at some site—and it will hurt!  Evading detection requires serious skills.  People with serious skills usually apply them to activities more productive than multi-account abuse on gambling sites.

Betcoin.ag has stated himself here that this one of the "abusive patterns" they have caught, even mentioned a low level game where the two accounts in question accounted for all of the market.
So obviously they say its a strong argument. I have absolutely nothing against them showing it to the public.
I cant speak for the other person of course, but i will talk to him tomorrow and ask him to acknowledge his approval also.

Listen, i am 95% sure that they will not show the bets here, because their security system made a huge mistake

They see two people betting the same game, maybe even some more games, and they think they have a JackPot.

Yet again i want to emphasize to them - i have over 10000 subscribers, who will bet whatever bet i post with their eyes closed. They trust in me (although recently i have been on a very very bad run, hence the big big minus in betcoin.ag account) and the lower level the game  is, the better it is. I have publicly recorded (not by me) stats over 3 years and 3100+ bets to prove that.

The other "evidence" they have is the same bitcoin wallet address in deposit to my account, and account of the other guy. But is that against the rules? Does it prove anything?

Nah ...

they will not post anything here. Please, guys from betcoin.ag, prove me wrong. Post the bets i took

Green-text-on-red-background fixed to make this legible:

I already did:

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I think that that’s a sort of canard by omission.  Are you purporting that that can be the only evidence of your abuse?

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Another problem:


The question as stated only makes sense if it includes information for all of the accounts that Betcoin.AG alleges are yours; otherwise, the picture presented is incomplete and unfair to Betcoin.AG.  But you deny that the other accounts are yours!  How can you authorize Betcoin.AG to disclose in public “personal information” about accounts that you claim are not yours?


OK.


There may be other reasons for them to be reluctant to answer any of your questions, given your approach.  I do suggest that they should clear this up, at least:  A statement of the balances for the accounts in question, at the time of the accounts being closed for alleged fraud.  If they have sound reason for not disclosing that publicly, then I suggest that they should say so, rather than ignoring the question.

Please people,
if some well respected member can ask the betcoin.ag these absolutely normal and rational questions:

1. What was the EXACT balance of my account at the time of closing?
2. Please show a list of the bets i took (all the bets please) which will "of course" prove that i was abusing your system.

I AUTHORIZE betcoin.ag to disclose all of the above mentioned personal information here in public ...

Please somebody from this well respected community ask the casino these questions. There is NO WAY this info can scrutinize their security protocols (as i, THE ALLEGED ABUSER, have taken these bets anyways, so i know them... nothing new for me to learn from this info).

As for the balance... well, i think it is reasonable if betcoin.ag really going to comply with the mediator, that as there is a chance i will be deemed innocent, the btc would need to be returned, so its only FAIR to specify the amount BEFORE the verdict of the mediator, and not after like betcoin.ag is trying to do. I feel they may be planning another scam here - return much less money than the actual balance, as they have never confirmed the exact amount.

I think that’s a more reasonable question.  Anyone from Betcoin.AG want to address that?  I can only presume this; I don’t know why they have not provided that information:


Same as for this:

Quote from: zikzik on November 02, 2020, 04:46:54 PM

There is nothing in the world they can show that can prove that the two accounts in question belong to me.

I don’t know if you are guilty or not.  I know that if you are, your VPN was not protecting you as you thought it was (LOL).  Based on my own security expertise, I would not assume that they can have no evidence.

Yes, I am confident that I myself could avoid any multi-account detection.  No, I will not tell the fine folks here how to do it.  If you try, you will probably get screwed—tough luck.

If you are innocent, then I expect that Betcoin.AG will probably fall flat on their faces at mediation; and they have already promised to return your remaining deposits if the mediator says to, so...

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Separately, I am curious about what Betcoin.AG thinks of my liquidated damages idea; though if they took it seriously, I would understand if it just shows up in revised TOS sometime.  Lawyers usually advise their clients not to discuss legal decisions in public.

I don’t like the idea of just keeping all deposits, without regard to proportionality; though if there is real evidence of fraud, I would not necessarily call that a scam, either.  I would assess that point on a case-by-case basis, if I were in the mediator’s position (which I am not).  Whereas liquidated damages would reasonably deter repeat abuse as a secondary effect, as a practical matter—in addition to the primary purpose of covering abuse-handling costs and business risk from abuse.

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Weird, this sudden pile-on about Hhampuz.  Why don’t the people making this about Hhampuz create a hundred new Reputation threads about how Hhampuz is pure evil, and meanwhile address what I said in an intelligent manner—or wait for the evidence to be reviewed by a neutral third-party mediator before opining.

What is this thread about?

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Edit:  Qualified “return your deposits” to “return your remaining deposits”—just to be precise, although I think that my intended meaning was clear in the first instance.

Their point is not reasonable. Not even close to reasonable. They just used this "Argument" as reason since now they claim they do not have to display any information towards you.
We will all know how this will end. SBR will tell it is fraud and that they can take your funds and keep it. The truth is actually, that they can NEVER take your funds.
Reagrding to the gaming commission, they are forced to give you the deposit back.
Of course they are going to say now that they are forced to hold the deposits, for investigation. This is not true. They must give the deposit back.
If I were you, I would find a lawyer and take them to court. The gambling commission is more strict since this year, so they will act harder if they see a website is messing around.
Spoken about fraud: Their terms are fraud since their allowed countries are not correct. Make screenshots of that and write an email to their gambling license issuer.
If you do not have their contact details, I have. I do not need any money for this, I just want justice and sites like Betcoin.ag must be stopped.

It's funny how you went from crying for not being accepted in my campaigns:



To displaying your complete lack of knowledge about this forum:



Then you question why someone would create an account to confirm a large withdraw, while in this current thread you are just on board with it since it goes the other way:



You have, over several posts, showed your complete lack of knowledge in any of these matters. I have to ask, are you off your meds?

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You should message theymos and show my abuse of the trust system, maybe he'll remove me from DT

is there a security reason for them not to exactly specify the balance of my account (if there is a chance that mediator will find me not guilty and i should get my btc back) ?

is there a security reason for them not to release the list of bets that i took at this account, to prove that i was abusing their limits, as they say? I mean i took those bets, i already know them ... i lost BIG on them, so i kinda remember them

why dont they just release them to the public and show my "abusive behavior" ?

I will tell you why - because they made a mistake about this situation.

There is nothing in the world they can show that can prove that the two accounts in question belong to me.

Thats why they claim the betting pattern as ONE of the indicators i was abusing, but they will NOT SHOW it here stating security reason, which is ONE BIG BS, as IF the accounts in question are both mine, than i would know all the bets in both of them ...

IT JUST DOESNT ADD UP, and THEY KNOW IT  


PS. Guys, please, its really easy to attack each other. But thats not the point here. All of this is done on purpose by the casino... they create these fights... they make accusations and dont show a single piece of proof. They say they dont want to teach abusers, but what is there to teach if i ask them to show MY FRIKING BETS, and they dont do it... dont be mad at each other please. Everybody is just doing their job here. Some are paid to defend the casino (like the representative here obviously), some do it to defend themselves from the casino scamming (like me obviously) and some just cant put up with the injustice they see ...

The biggest clown is a manager from Betcoin and is getting paid to defend them. And is also abusing the trust system.
Since you decided to give me negative trust, I will promise you that you will not get away with this and I am going to fight for it that you will be pushed away from the DT level, since you abuse the system.
Besides that, about the betcoin.ag site. They just look like to steal the money here, nothing has to be sent about it. If it is fraud, return the deposits to him.
But dont return to much, otherweise you can not pay hhamphuz anymore to defend your scam site.


Looks like Nullius is now also hired to defend Betcoin.ag
Time to give hem a neg trust?

Having been involved with abuse-handling work in the past, I know that sometimes, that can be tantamount to writing an instruction manual on “How To NOT GET CAUGHT Next Time”.  What Betcoin themselves said on Page 1 is reasonable, on that particular point.

Post #9, on Page 1 of 8 thus far... did you read the thread at all!?

On the other hand, if Betcoin.AG is really doing what I suspect that they must be doing, then you would need to be a genuine security expert to evade their multi-accounting detection with no mistakes, ever.

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Edit:  I originally hit the post button in the wrong tab, trying to quote Betcoin.AG from Page 1.  Whoops.  Here is the actual post.

Impressive how many clowns can fit in one car, although not too surprising.

MAASDAMER IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT
I can confirm that Hhamphuz is being bribed by a number of gambling sites to defend their reputation. Hhamphuz is abusing its DT user status. I'm also pretty sure his trusts have been bought. Hhamphuz is a disgrace to the forum and is a manipulator and a first class pancake.
Duelbits is also a big scam gang, as is Betcoin.ag. I dismantled them in their topic, but Hhamphuz didn't like that much and then I got a negative trust from him.
Is it possible to make an accusation against Hhamphuz to make sure he will lose his DT leverl? People like him, do not belong in the DT list, since they abuse this system.

Yeah keep defending them u biased joke.

Oh no, do you mean to tell me that a public campaign with a public spreadsheet and weekly payouts is something that's going on here, at bitcointalk? Damn, this changes everything..

Betcoin rather pays trash like Hhampuz to defend them rather than actually show proof here.
I mean its proven that he is working for them.

Thats what scam sites do.

No need for that. I have repeatedly asked (and authorized) betcoin.ag to show ANY proof in this thread. They just refuse ...

They also refuse even to tell me the exact balance of my account, when they closed it.

Now lets assume the mediator finds me not guilty, now betcoin.ag has to give me my Bitcoin back.

But they didnt confirm the exact amount anywhere, so they can give me just any number, and it doesnt have to be the real one... because they just refuse to tell me that number beforehand !!!

At the moment, Betcoin is getting a bad name and its reputation is being damaged. What could be easier than publishing the evidence? You do not have to enter specific IP addresses or personal details.

They can tell the user to email the evidence to them and ask them if they are okay with posting it on the forum due to privacy rights. And maybe he will post that on his own.

Then the damage is still manageable and the image is polished. If Betcoin is really convinced that the user has committed fraud, then I really don't understand why they don't come up with evidence.

 Little effort. That story about third party ... well, I don't really know what to think about it.

If you let a lawyer and judge look at it now, it makes sense. But SBR as an assessor? No sorry, that's too easy. Especially if the user does not receive any information.

Excuse me. Why are you doing this?

I have many times stated (and betcoin.ag confirmed my deposit/withdrawal history) that i ACTUALLY LOST money while betting with them.

Deposited 1.8 btc, withdrawn 0.1 btc, current balance ABOUT 1 btc

EVEN if they add the account of that other person (which i have absolutely no relation to)
deposited 0.1 btc, withdrawn 0, current balance about 0.5 btc i think he said ...

SO PLEASE, stop telling wrong information. Betcoin.ag HAVE NOT LOST ANY MONEY from my betting (EVEN if they UNJUSTLY connect the account of that other guy to me)

you can say anything you like about me - its your right. But PLEASE dont post wrong information.