Please upvote this on reddit to alert the wider community:
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1r3spb/how_is_this_not_considered_theft_by_bitbet_and_is/
Topic: BitBet Stole ~$7,000 from me (10 BTC) - page 14. (Read 58202 times)
If they didn't receive your money until after betting was closed, then you didn't purchase anything. Whatever is written in the rules can't take away your consumer rights. If they don't provide the service paid for or send a refund it's just theft. There not protecting anyone by keeping the money, just lining there pockets.
The service is GAMBLING. GAMBLING is risky. When bets are time average weighted you must discourage late bets. Why?
Masses of idiots like you would spam the blockchain at the last possible second when the bet outcome is known, for even a 1% winnings. This screws early bettors and creates 95% of the work for bitbet admins for 5% of the customers. The same 5% of childish people that bitbet is discouraging, because they are the worst kind of customers.
This OPEN discouragement of late betting is clearly explained as such, in the faq.
You're telling me you went and sent 10btc, at the time, ~$8,000, without even reading the faq? And you're blaming others for this oversight?
Gambling is risky but the risk is supposed to be in losing the bets and not getting screwed by the site operator. Having a rule that payments must be confirmed before a bet is resolved to count is perfectly reasonable. Having a rule that refunds of such payments are subject to a small convenience fee (since it may require manual intervention to refund) is also perfectly reasonable. Having a rule that says bets don't count up to X minutes before a bet is resolved is also reasonable.
A price of almost $750 is not $750 though, so unless the bet was placed after the price actually crossed $750 then I don't think it's an exploit - the outcome was still in doubt even if the doubt was very small. Regardless, keeping 100% of the money is stealing, and a wave of people from BitBet IRC chat saying otherwise doesn't change that.
A FAQ is for when people have questions, it's not a must-read for casual users who want to make sure they don't get screwed by awful policies. Even actual must-reads like terms and conditions you must agree to before using a service do not give you the right to steal.
OP, I hope you contact a lawyer if the site continues to refuse to refund you. I bet a judge would see this as stealing, but running this by a lawyer would be the best way to be sure. You're out a significant chunk of change so I believe it could easily be worth it, and you'd be doing the bitcoin community a service.
+1.
I encourage bitbet to resolve this issue. If not, maybe they will end paying x10 times what they have took.
So if BitBet clock shows 10:45, what time is it on arbitrary bet #6705's clock?
If bitbet says: bet closed at 10:45 (bitbet time) , then all bets confirmed and received from 10:15 (bitbet time) to ahead would be cancelled and refunded. What's the problem with that?
If they didn't receive your money until after betting was closed, then you didn't purchase anything. Whatever is written in the rules can't take away your consumer rights. If they don't provide the service paid for or send a refund it's just theft. There not protecting anyone by keeping the money, just lining there pockets.
The service is GAMBLING. GAMBLING is risky. When bets are time average weighted you must discourage late bets. Why?
Masses of idiots like you would spam the blockchain at the last possible second when the bet outcome is known, for even a 1% winnings. This screws early bettors and creates 95% of the work for bitbet admins for 5% of the customers. The same 5% of childish people that bitbet is discouraging, because they are the worst kind of customers.
This OPEN discouragement of late betting is clearly explained as such, in the faq.
You're telling me you went and sent 10btc, at the time, ~$8,000, without even reading the faq? And you're blaming others for this oversight?
Gambling is risky but the risk is supposed to be in losing the bets and not getting screwed by the site operator. Having a rule that payments must be confirmed before a bet is resolved to count is perfectly reasonable. Having a rule that refunds of such payments are subject to a small convenience fee (since it may require manual intervention to refund) is also perfectly reasonable. Having a rule that says bets don't count up to X minutes before a bet is resolved is also reasonable.
A price of almost $750 is not $750 though, so unless the bet was placed after the price actually crossed $750 then I don't think it's an exploit - the outcome was still in doubt even if the doubt was very small. Regardless, keeping 100% of the money is stealing, and a wave of people from BitBet IRC chat saying otherwise doesn't change that.
A FAQ is for when people have questions, it's not a must-read for casual users who want to make sure they don't get screwed by awful policies. Even actual must-reads like terms and conditions you must agree to before using a service do not give you the right to steal.
OP, I hope you contact a lawyer if the site continues to refuse to refund you. I bet a judge would see this as stealing, but running this by a lawyer would be the best way to be sure. You're out a significant chunk of change so I believe it could easily be worth it, and you'd be doing the bitcoin community a service.
This could be solved easily I think . Their rules could include this for ex: all bets entered 30 minutes before bet outcome is known will be cancelled and refunded with a 1%.
Timing does not work in Bitcoin the way you intuitively imagine it would.
In fact the reason the blockchain even exists in the first place is that timing and synchronicity issues have no easy solution.
You are saying that if the user sent the money without fees there is no way to verify that he sent it at a particular time? If that is so you should have started with that.
I understand your theory in double spending, but if the user sent his BTC from another betting service which he doesn't own, he doesn't control the private keys of that wallet and there is no way he can double spend those coins, or am I missing something here?
Your arguments in this post are usually so emotional that is hard to figure out what you are trying to say. I would suggest you keep your answers in a polite and logical manner. If you actually have a point it will be heard this way. But so far I'm still thinking that the user has a stronger point and its going to take some good reasons for changing my mind.
Would it make it more risky to return all the transactions that had no fee instead of keeping them?
If the user actually double spend his bet after the resolution of the bet is known, wouldn't that bet be qualified as late?
Given your attitude I feel like I'm missing something and it would be much easier if you enlighten us with that.
I'm not referring to bitcoin or blockchain timing. I talk about bet closed time in bitbet.us. If they just reject those last 30 minute (even confirmed) bets, I think this will keep away cheater's bets and scammers.
So if BitBet clock shows 10:45, what time is it on arbitrary bet #6705's clock?
I'm sure there's solutions. But seems like they like the actual betting system.
The problem with the world is that the clueless are always sure of various things.
This could be solved easily I think . Their rules could include this for ex: all bets entered 30 minutes before bet outcome is known will be cancelled and refunded with a 1%.
Timing does not work in Bitcoin the way you intuitively imagine it would.
In fact the reason the blockchain even exists in the first place is that timing and synchronicity issues have no easy solution.
I'm not referring to bitcoin or blockchain timing. I talk about bet closed time in bitbet.us. If they just reject those last 30 minute (even confirmed) bets, I think this will keep away cheater's bets and scammers.
I'm sure there's solutions. But seems like they like the actual betting system.
This could be solved easily I think . Their rules could include this for ex: all bets entered 30 minutes before bet outcome is known will be cancelled and refunded with a 1%.
Timing does not work in Bitcoin the way you intuitively imagine it would.
In fact the reason the blockchain even exists in the first place is that timing and synchronicity issues have no easy solution.
There are way to many companies like this in Bitcoin. We need to stop supporting these crooked business practices if we want bitcoin to succeed.
You are roughly in the position of a Colorado bug on a potato plant discussing what "we" should be doing if "we" wish agriculture to succeed.
Shut the fuck up and get lost. You're not even part of Bitcoin in the first place. And the reason Bitcoin doth succeed has a way lot more to do with MP than you can begin to comprehend.
The service is GAMBLING. GAMBLING is risky.
Keeping my 10 BTC is STEALING. STEALING is wrong.
Sending $9,000 to a random gambling site without reading the rules is stupid. Blaming others is childish.
Stealing is going in the night while you sleep and breaking into a safe.
This is you gouging out your eyes and running into a casino and slapping down $9,000 on a roullete machine and then demanding your money back because you didn't know how it worked.
In your roullete comparison, he would be the guy who walked into the casino and handed the dealer $9000 dollars without reading the fine print. Then the dealer turns around and says. "Sorry, you don't get a turn the last spin was 5 mins ago. Tuff luck." If you think that's how normal business works. Your either a crook or delusional.
There are laws to protect customers from these types of scams. Businesses are not allowed to just take your money and not provide the item or service. They can write whatever they like in the rules, it doesn't change that.
There are way to many companies like this in Bitcoin. We need to stop supporting these crooked business practices if we want bitcoin to succeed.
If they didn't receive your money until after betting was closed, then you didn't purchase anything. Whatever is written in the rules can't take away your consumer rights. If they don't provide the service paid for or send a refund it's just theft. There not protecting anyone by keeping the money, just lining there pockets.
The service is GAMBLING. GAMBLING is risky. When bets are time average weighted you must discourage late bets. Why?
Masses of idiots like you would spam the blockchain at the last possible second when the bet outcome is known, for even a 1% winnings. This screws early bettors and creates 95% of the work for bitbet admins for 5% of the customers. The same 5% of childish people that bitbet is discouraging, because they are the worst kind of customers.
This OPEN discouragement of late betting is clearly explained as such, in the faq.
You're telling me you went and sent 10btc, at the time, ~$8,000, without even reading the faq? And you're blaming others for this oversight?
This could be solved easily I think . Their rules could include this for ex: all bets entered 30 minutes before bet outcome is known will be cancelled and refunded with a 1%.
Is it? I'm not an expert on betting, correct me if I'm wrong.
But seems like they prefer to steal the money.
and FAQ says:
http://bitbet.us/faq/#152
What if I bet after the bet has been satisfied, but before it is actually closed?
Your bet will be refunded, minus BitBet's 1% fee.
Our bets were done BEFORE the bet was closed.
The service is GAMBLING. GAMBLING is risky.
Keeping my 10 BTC is STEALING. STEALING is wrong.
Sending $9,000 to a random gambling site without reading the rules is stupid. Blaming others is childish.
Stealing is going in the night while you sleep and breaking into a safe.
This is you gouging out your eyes and running into a casino and slapping down $9,000 on a roullete machine and then demanding your money back because you didn't know how it worked.
Keeping my 10 BTC is STEALING. STEALING is wrong.
"Would you download a car?"
The service is GAMBLING. GAMBLING is risky.
Keeping my 10 BTC is STEALING. STEALING is wrong.
If they didn't receive your money until after betting was closed, then you didn't purchase anything. Whatever is written in the rules can't take away your consumer rights. If they don't provide the service paid for or send a refund it's just theft. There not protecting anyone by keeping the money, just lining there pockets.
The service is GAMBLING. GAMBLING is risky. When bets are time average weighted you must discourage late bets. Why?
Masses of idiots like you would spam the blockchain at the last possible second when the bet outcome is known, for even a 1% winnings. This screws early bettors and creates 95% of the work for bitbet admins for 5% of the customers. The same 5% of childish people that bitbet is discouraging, because they are the worst kind of customers.
This OPEN discouragement of late betting is clearly explained as such, in the faq.
You're telling me you went and sent 10btc, at the time, ~$8,000, without even reading the faq? And you're blaming others for this oversight?
So this dude's bitcoin arrived too late to be included in the bet, but is being kept as if it had made it in the bet and lost?
For shame. Shame shame shame.
For shame. Shame shame shame.
I had a similar issue. Was 0.20 btc , but it sucks anyway.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/bitbetus-refuses-to-refund-me-a-bet-341881
Gl snackman.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/bitbetus-refuses-to-refund-me-a-bet-341881
Gl snackman.
Seems that we're having only one lone idiot here, and that's you. Do you see how many people are against you?
Who asked you anything? Speak when spoken to, fuckwit.
@davout I love it how they quote rettardit as the source of the method to avoid doublespends that Satoshi Dice pioneered.
You know, the MPEx Satoshi Dice.
MPOE-PR just likes irritating people. Common sense be damned.
Seems that we're having only one lone idiot here, and that's you. Do you see how many people are against you?
Who asked you anything? Speak when spoken to, fuckwit.
@davout I love it how they quote rettardit as the source of the method to avoid doublespends that Satoshi Dice pioneered.
You know, the MPEx Satoshi Dice.
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