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Topic: Bitfury: "16nm... sales to public start shortly" - page 37. (Read 108551 times)

legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1185
dogiecoin.com
Its then just a matter of changing tankfulls of boards one at a time.

Why would they remove 28nm stuff when its already paid for and still profitable? The answer I guess is capacity and just how many data centers you want to build, but that's part of the reason they want to sell these to others.

They will sell the used 28nm miners?

If they're in immersion cooling board form, they're certainly not going to be selling them.
hero member
Activity: 572
Merit: 506
Its then just a matter of changing tankfulls of boards one at a time.

Why would they remove 28nm stuff when its already paid for and still profitable? The answer I guess is capacity and just how many data centers you want to build, but that's part of the reason they want to sell these to others.

They will sell the used 28nm miners?
legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1185
dogiecoin.com
Its then just a matter of changing tankfulls of boards one at a time.

Why would they remove 28nm stuff when its already paid for and still profitable? The answer I guess is capacity and just how many data centers you want to build, but that's part of the reason they want to sell these to others.
legendary
Activity: 3752
Merit: 2667
Evil beware: We have waffles!
^^ The possibility of the package size and same limited coms setup makes for an interesting thought: Perhaps aside from some changes to the support chips to handle higher throoughput, the new chips could basically use the existing hashboards or at least most of their already validated portions perhaps? Hmmm..

That would certainly speed deployment in BitFury's almost mobile mini-pharms http://bitfury.com/products#container-datacenter and the new DC... Once more than just engineering samples are produced, tweaked hashboards tested and the foundry is given the the green light to start a full scale run(s) it's then just a matter of changing tankfulls of boards one at a time. If the data tanks are removable as a unit, all the better. prep/change over tanks to the new 16nm chips & boards  off line and swap out the old ones with the new. Rinse & repeat as desired & production (and money) allows for.

Should give their selected integrators a leg up as well I'd think.

A last thought on why deploy 28nm in the new DC: Time to produce enough boards/chips to fill it. The building & all infra itself was completed how long ago? (seriously, when?) With 28nm chips in production at the time or left over from the final runs, why not? Is a good CYA to start filling/using the DC until the 16nm chips start getting made en-mass which is, um, now if I've read things right.

Query to BitFury: If I may ask, how many boards & chips are in each tank? Based on the stated 100GH/s a 12Ph mini-farm takes 120k chips. What size wafer is used? What is the actual silicon die size (along with full package size?
legendary
Activity: 1946
Merit: 1006
Bitcoin / Crypto mining Hardware.
at least pin out ?
Did you look at the schematics we just posted? 2 pins for data (SCK&SDATA) and all the rest for power.
Actually that is bullshit. Bitfury_POWER has around 40 pins, most of them non-obvious.

Will you actually dare to disclose what the PARITY pin does and what is the function of the two associated LEDs?


Actually you're wrong. The 28nm chip has VCC, GND and two I/O pins as you can clearly see from images like the 1block_short.jpg for example. The 250nm is another story. It's a comm chip with 3 dedicated lines for each 28nm chip, reference voltage, clock and data + bunch of other stuff. Calling bullshit when you didn't even comprehend the question that I answered is a bit harsh.
How do the COMM chips connect to the external world? Will the 16nm Bitfury chip be available in QFN package?

legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1007
Please correct me, if I'm wrong.

Let's assume they
1) produce a 28nm miner for $0.06/GH
2) operate it at 0.36 J/GH (conservativ guess)
3) while having electricity costs of $0.05/kWh (or less)

they should make $0.03/GH per month at the current difficulty, which means ROI in about 2 months.

There will be probably first miners based on Bitfury's 16nm ASIC in wild and their DC end of March, but I guess the real volume ramp up will happen in April.
So it should be enough time, to make some profit with the new 28nm hardware.

I don't see how it would be possible to produce full working miners meaning PCB+chips+components at $0.06/GH. Even if this were true, which I find very unlikely, the big private buyers are being ripped off big time while we are being lied that BitFury is trying to help the decentralization.
member
Activity: 98
Merit: 10
Just my take on it but: Because one has to start *somewhere* and get the ball rolling. The older chips were on-hand and they have working boards for them. As a bonus they get to test the DC at full load.

Newer more efficient chips/boards are in the pipeline but not on-hand so you either have a DC sitting there empty/partly used or ya plug in what you have right now and upgrade when the new designs get into full production.

Sure, but doing that needs money and the difficulty is raising like crazy. They will never make ROI on the "miners" so that means that they have money to burn just like I said. I understand that they need to get the ball rolling and that they need to test the DC, but if the 3rd party manufacturers can get miners shipped in March then they can get 16nm miners in the DC too. There is simply no time to make ROI on this 28nm miners.

Please correct me, if I'm wrong.

Let's assume they
1) produce a 28nm miner for $0.06/GH
2) operate it at 0.36 J/GH (conservativ guess)
3) while having electricity costs of $0.05/kWh (or less)

they should make $0.03/GH per month at the current difficulty, which means ROI in about 2 months.

There will be probably first miners based on Bitfury's 16nm ASIC in wild and their DC end of March, but I guess the real volume ramp up will happen in April.
So it should be enough time, to make some profit with the new 28nm hardware.



If you think there will be a 5TH/s miner being sold for $300 within the next week then maybe you can hit ROI with those numbers. Doubt that will ever happen. It needs to be ready to hit the market at half the price of an S7... today.
full member
Activity: 129
Merit: 100
Just my take on it but: Because one has to start *somewhere* and get the ball rolling. The older chips were on-hand and they have working boards for them. As a bonus they get to test the DC at full load.

Newer more efficient chips/boards are in the pipeline but not on-hand so you either have a DC sitting there empty/partly used or ya plug in what you have right now and upgrade when the new designs get into full production.

Sure, but doing that needs money and the difficulty is raising like crazy. They will never make ROI on the "miners" so that means that they have money to burn just like I said. I understand that they need to get the ball rolling and that they need to test the DC, but if the 3rd party manufacturers can get miners shipped in March then they can get 16nm miners in the DC too. There is simply no time to make ROI on this 28nm miners.

Please correct me, if I'm wrong.

Let's assume they
1) produce a 28nm miner for $0.06/GH
2) operate it at 0.36 J/GH (conservativ guess)
3) while having electricity costs of $0.05/kWh (or less)

they should make $0.03/GH per month at the current difficulty, which means ROI in about 2 months.

There will be probably first miners based on Bitfury's 16nm ASIC in wild and their DC end of March, but I guess the real volume ramp up will happen in April.
So it should be enough time, to make some profit with the new 28nm hardware.


legendary
Activity: 3752
Merit: 2667
Evil beware: We have waffles!
Then it becomes a write-off. Hell, stuffing the DC with 28nm chips could be part of their R&D budget...
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1007
Just my take on it but: Because one has to start *somewhere* and get the ball rolling. The older chips were on-hand and they have working boards for them. As a bonus they get to test the DC at full load.

Newer more efficient chips/boards are in the pipeline but not on-hand so you either have a DC sitting there empty/partly used or ya plug in what you have right now and upgrade when the new designs get into full production.

Sure, but doing that needs money and the difficulty is raising like crazy. They will never make ROI on the "miners" so that means that they have money to burn just like I said. I understand that they need to get the ball rolling and that they need to test the DC, but if the 3rd party manufacturers can get miners shipped in March then they can get 16nm miners in the DC too. There is simply no time to make ROI on this 28nm miners.
legendary
Activity: 3752
Merit: 2667
Evil beware: We have waffles!
Our total hash power has increased due to our Gldani immersion cooling datacenter getting to full capacity.

Why would you spend money on filling a DC with older gen chips especially when you will receive the newer chips with MUCH better efficiency beats me. You either have money to burn or you will simply build a new DC for the newer chips or you simply pay so little to do this that you can afford to replace everything in 1-2 months. I can understand filling just a part of it for tests, but a whole DC...something doesn't adds up.

Just my take on it but: Because one has to start *somewhere* and get the ball rolling. The older chips were on-hand and they have working boards for them. As a bonus they get to test the DC at full load.

Newer more efficient chips/boards are in the pipeline but not on-hand so you either have a DC sitting there empty/partly used or ya plug in what you have right now and upgrade when the new designs get into full production.
member
Activity: 98
Merit: 10
Our total hash power has increased due to our Gldani immersion cooling datacenter getting to full capacity.

Why would you spend money on filling a DC with older gen chips especially when you will receive the newer chips with MUCH better efficiency beats me. You either have money to burn or you will simply build a new DC for the newer chips or you simply pay so little to do this that you can afford to replace everything in 1-2 months. I can understand filling just a part of it for tests, but a whole DC...something doesn't adds up.

So I will order 50Th-100Th the first day the miners are announced, if they arrive to me before April 1 I will pay you 1 BTC but if they do not then you send me 1 BTC.

How does that sound?

That was a very bad bet from my point of view. You just made a bet with a manufacturer who can simply get this in time by liaising with a 3rd party who can sell a small number of miners. Maybe the miners will be built by BitFury and just sold by the 3rd party company just to win that bet.

I think I would have put something in there about price... I mean those 50TH could cost 30BTC depending on availability.
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1007
Our total hash power has increased due to our Gldani immersion cooling datacenter getting to full capacity.

Why would you spend money on filling a DC with older gen chips especially when you will receive the newer chips with MUCH better efficiency beats me. You either have money to burn or you will simply build a new DC for the newer chips or you simply pay so little to do this that you can afford to replace everything in 1-2 months. I can understand filling just a part of it for tests, but a whole DC...something doesn't adds up.

So I will order 50Th-100Th the first day the miners are announced, if they arrive to me before April 1 I will pay you 1 BTC but if they do not then you send me 1 BTC.

How does that sound?

That was a very bad bet from my point of view. You just made a bet with a manufacturer who can simply get this in time by liaising with a 3rd party who can sell a small number of miners. Maybe the miners will be built by BitFury and just sold by the 3rd party company just to win that bet.
legendary
Activity: 4256
Merit: 8551
'The right to privacy matters'
Hi punin, thanks for your engagement here.

Just to be totally clear, you are saying that, at this point in time, there are no machines anywhere hashing with your new chip?

I can't help noticing that your share of total hash power increased sharply recently too.


That is correct. We have just a handful of chips right now and all are used for R&D and profiling including occasional rapid unscheduled disassembly as we look for the limits of the chip Wink . We are expecting the engineering lots in a few weeks time. Luckily our schedule was not affected by the recent Taiwan earthquake.

Our total hash power has increased due to our Gldani immersion cooling datacenter getting to full capacity.


So my information was correct 6 pages ago that you do not have a reference board built yet.   Wink

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.13810862

I would think not having the engineering samples "for a few weeks" that an end of March product release for home miners is an aggressive (and likely impossible) task.   Having said that, I think if you haven't ran a full batch of chips then you are expecting everything to go without a hitch with Batch 1 chips.  I think that is also a very ambitious expectation for a new 16nm chip.

I am going to go out on a limb and say end of April or beginning of May is a better bet.

Will you take 1 BTC bet? Smiley

Not sure what we are betting on but I will definitely take the bet-

So I will order 50Th-100Th the first day the miners are announced, if they arrive to me before April 1 I will pay you 1 BTC but if they do not then you send me 1 BTC.

How does that sound?

Deal!

I put a copy of this for reference


https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.13848252
hero member
Activity: 560
Merit: 500
sr. member
Activity: 427
Merit: 251
- electronics design|embedded software|verilog -
hero member
Activity: 560
Merit: 500
Hi punin, thanks for your engagement here.

Just to be totally clear, you are saying that, at this point in time, there are no machines anywhere hashing with your new chip?

I can't help noticing that your share of total hash power increased sharply recently too.


That is correct. We have just a handful of chips right now and all are used for R&D and profiling including occasional rapid unscheduled disassembly as we look for the limits of the chip Wink . We are expecting the engineering lots in a few weeks time. Luckily our schedule was not affected by the recent Taiwan earthquake.

Our total hash power has increased due to our Gldani immersion cooling datacenter getting to full capacity.


So my information was correct 6 pages ago that you do not have a reference board built yet.   Wink

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.13810862

I would think not having the engineering samples "for a few weeks" that an end of March product release for home miners is an aggressive (and likely impossible) task.   Having said that, I think if you haven't ran a full batch of chips then you are expecting everything to go without a hitch with Batch 1 chips.  I think that is also a very ambitious expectation for a new 16nm chip.

I am going to go out on a limb and say end of April or beginning of May is a better bet.

Will you take 1 BTC bet? Smiley

Not sure what we are betting on but I will definitely take the bet-

So I will order 50Th-100Th the first day the miners are announced, if they arrive to me before April 1 I will pay you 1 BTC but if they do not then you send me 1 BTC.

How does that sound?

Deal!
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1318
Technical Analyst/Trader
It would be hard for him to make that bet IF BitFury is not the manufacturer of the rig.  It's too hard for him to know when another manufacturer of rigs using their chips will actually ship.
legendary
Activity: 980
Merit: 1001
aka "whocares"
Not sure what we are betting on but I will definitely take the bet-

So I will order 50Th-100Th the first day the miners are announced, if they arrive to me before April 1 I will pay you 1 BTC but if they do not then you send me 1 BTC.

How does that sound?

Don't forget to add, "In good working order and according to specifications."
Should be a given but also add, "On promised delivery date at time of order verification (eg. yer wallet says the Tx went through and has a couple verifications or check/other fiat xfr was approved) subject to strictly defined definition of "Late/delayed" and resolution process if late or delayed"
This comes to mind on both points:
http://web.archive.org/web/20131003021440/http://advancedminers.com/bitcoin-mining-hardware/520-ghs-bitcoin-miner from Oct. 3rd 2013. Ordered mine Feb 28th 2014 when it was not pre-order but instead "delivery in 4-wweks or less"... We all know how the AMT/Bitmine.ch A1 saga is progressing for most folks...  Angry

Good point by you and Dmwardjr.  - But let's see if he actually wants to bet or it was just advertisement  Wink
legendary
Activity: 3752
Merit: 2667
Evil beware: We have waffles!
Not sure what we are betting on but I will definitely take the bet-

So I will order 50Th-100Th the first day the miners are announced, if they arrive to me before April 1 I will pay you 1 BTC but if they do not then you send me 1 BTC.

How does that sound?

Don't forget to add, "In good working order and according to specifications."
Should be a given but also add, "On promised delivery date at time of order verification (eg. yer wallet says the Tx went through and has a couple verifications or check/other fiat xfr was approved) subject to strictly defined definition of "Late/delayed" and resolution process if late or delayed"
This comes to mind on both points:
http://web.archive.org/web/20131003021440/http://advancedminers.com/bitcoin-mining-hardware/520-ghs-bitcoin-miner from Oct. 3rd 2013. Ordered mine Feb 28th 2014 when it was not pre-order but instead "delivery in 4-wweks or less"... We all know how the AMT/Bitmine.ch A1 saga is progressing for most folks...  Angry
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