Topic: ★ BITSTARZ.COM - BTC & EUR Casino | Get 200 Free Spins + 5BTC Welcome Package ★ - page 4. (Read 23700 times)

Mike explain why do you even have the max bet rule in the first place? Also why is it so low?

Hi there,

Well, you got a more elaborate answer above here, so I hope that answers your question. But I see your point,
and at BitStarz, less than 5% would have anything confiscated in the casino. I just want to point out that this, it depends on what markets
you operate in and a lot of other factors.

Bonus abuse in general tend to be more likely in certain markets than others. Just as you would assume that corruption
or any other type of crime would be more wide-spread in certain areas. Therefore, what markets you operate in could
make a huge difference to how many people get confiscated, I hope that makes sense.

To answer your question, I believe that the confiscation rate should be way lower than 5% to be fair, and that's what it
is at BitStarz.

Mike

I'm not asking you for exact statistics.  I'm asking your opinion.  This is a hypothetical situation.

Hi there,

I don't have any exact statistics on that, we do not keep track of how many people that are breaching that rule
and is suffering the consequences, as again, we let many slide. I can just say that they are a very small minority
as I personally get to hear about them, and I also know the amount of active players we have in the casino and
the amount of new players we get in.

So, you thinking it's much higher at BitStarz, what do you base that figure on? A few people writing about it in the forum when
we have thousands of continuous new depositing players?

I'd rather focus on the circumstances rather than a number. This is a case by case question. If you suddenly get overrun by a
mob of fraudsters opening 100 accounts each and try to claim the welcome package an equal amount of times, I think the
ratio is less relevant. What should be focused on is detecting and separating the genuine players from the abusers.

Mike

Just answer the question please.


If the over under is 0.5, that means there's a 50% chance that 1 or more players violate a term and a 50% chance that 0 do.

I think it would be much higher at Bitstarz.

What do you think it would be?

What do you think would be acceptable?

Hi there,

First of all, I doubt that the average player would come in to a new site and dump in 1 BTC or 600 euro each, very few players
actually would do such a thing. Most players actually try the site out with a smaller amount first. If these new players would
also contact us regarding anything that has to do with a bonus (which many new players do as they do not always know how it works)
we do our best to remind them specifically about the 25 mBTC per bet rule.

Again, applying the rule in practice is quite rare. Sure, there are some examples here online, but then you're forgetting about the massive
amount of players who have read through and understood or for whatever other reason never have had a problem. It's easy to forget about
them.

I'm not sure what you're basing your 0.5 on, however, I could quite easily say that it's nothing higher than 0.5 on average.

I've also got a guarantee from softswiss that they have an absolute latest deadline of 4 months to have the max bet limit technically
applied to all softswiss sites. Hopefully it's way faster than that, but that's the guarantee we got.

Mike

If you went out at got 100 random people who have never gambled online before, and you gave them 1 bitcoin or 600 euro each for them to deposit on your site after signing up, and reading the terms and conditions.

What's the over under on how many of them commit a violation that gives bitstarz the right to seize their winnings?  ( all new players that know very little about gambling, none of them have any malicious intentions)

If the number is any higher than 0.5, you're not doing your job ethically.

Hi there,

We're always working on trying to make it as clear as possible and I appreciate the feedback we got from you
regarding this. It was still available via the promotions page and on the main page where the bonuses are displayed
(In the main big banner of the website that is).

If there's anywhere else you feel they're needed to make it clear, let me know.

Mike

Hi there,

You may recall I recently pointed out that many of your bonuses had a link to your general terms and conditions.  Your promotional terms were only accesable by clicking on a "terms and conditions" link after after landing on the promotions page.

You quickly fixed it, which is nice, but this guy seems to be exactly why they should have never been the way they were....

Did you really take 20 btc from this guy?  wtf

Hi there,

So you wouldn't call some of the world's biggest online casinos serious? I agree with you on
one thing though, if you don't like the terms, then you shouldn't play on that particular site.

If you don't agree with the terms of use, then you should find another site that suits you better.

Mike

Hi there,

Well, I've always been a fan of constructive criticism, but complaining about the terms not being visible but won't
get any feedback as to how we can adjust them to your liking is not gonna help anyone.

Mike

Vote with your feet and no longer play there. These are rogue terms and there are many other bitcoin casinos that doesn't have them. As I said and SERIOUS casino doesn't place trap terms.

Hey Mike,

In regards to where to put the bonus terms to make them more clear - you can start by taking them and SHOVING THEM UP YOUR ASS!

Every time I read this thread, my blood boils. So for my own health I will no longer be following it. It is a waste of time trying to argue with you Mike, you are a scumbag and apparently the only person who works at BitStarz. Congratulations though, you are probably a very wealthy man. Kudos to you.

Good riddance

Hi there,

If you're reading the terms and conditions, there are not many that dictates how you can play or not. It's mostly filled
with information which countries are excluded from receiving bonuses, that you can only get one per IP, etc. Very few
of them are rules that states that you should play a certain way.

If you don't believe what AskGamblers is saying, then you can go to CasinoMeister, one of the largest advocates of fair
play. We do not get any traffic from them and I'm sure they'd say the same thing about the max bet clause, if you're worried
about some kind of bias.

Also, please enlighten me how we can make the terms more clear, and where to put them. They're put in many places on the
site, in all bonus emails, on the deposit page, etc. If you have a better place to put them, or any more place, then we'd appreciate
if you wanted to make gambling slightly better and more convenient for everyone and provide feedback as to where that would be.

Mike

So you guys still hold firm on your stance that someone like me (who you confiscated 20 btc in winnings from) saw the max bet was 0.025 btc and knew that if I bet over that amount then all of my winnings would be confiscated... then I said "hmm let me try to get one over on them and bet over the limit" knowing that my winnings would be confiscated? ... what a joke.. Obviously if me/others had known this, we would not bet over that amount... You guys allow bets to be placed over this amount and have not done anything to rectify it, even after many many months and many complaints.

Also it is worth saying that I actually did take probably 20-30 minutes to read your terms very carefully and I guess missed the max bet clause. It is obviously hidden for a reason - and that is to maximize your profits and screw players over... glad to see that rhavar, twitchyseal and others are standing up to you guys.

Furthermore, your only response to anyone who criticizes you and your B.S. terms is to run to Askgamblers, who I might add, you pay significantly to promote you and appears to be your biggest affiliate...

Also they are only there to mediate complaints where the casino violates its own terms. They don't acknowledge the root of these problems, which in your case is B.S. bonus terms (hidden and predatory). So telling people to complain there will not help anyone, and means you are dancing around the issue.

This is terrible not only for you, but also for the bitcoin gambling community as a whole.

We are in the Bitcoin Gambling forum you know, and RHaver is the guy who built moneypot, bustabit, that lottery thing...[/quote]

Bitcoin or not, the rules of a site applies to both Bitcoin and Fiat. The rules doesn't change depending on what currency you use.
Besides, Bitcoin gambling is quite a new concept, online fiat casinos have quite some history and are the explanation to why the
Bitcoin casinos look and operate like they do. So, if you're looking to some senior knowledge on any type of gambling, those would
be great sources for you.

If it were possible to take advantage of your casino by opening multiple accounts you would of gone out of business long ago.

The reality is a substantial portion of your income is expected to come from T&C violations every year. I think that's unethical
A player shouldn't have to read your your 4,000 words of General T&C and then 2,000 words of Promotional T&C and then wonder if there's more somewhere else they might be missing.  

You're running a casino, right?  People like to relax and gamble and not have to worry about getting paid if they win.

Right now, you have a rule that basically changes many  the buttons in your games into  "Lose all your money if you push this button"
It's a trap.

I can tell you there's a huge difference between playing on a site regulated in America and playing on a site like Bitstarz.
The sad thing is, Bitcoin gives you the chance to become just as trusted or more than a site that has invested millions into their license.


I disagree with most of the rules that are found in softswiss casinos.

Where are the rules that they follow by the way?

We are in the Bitcoin Gambling forum you know, and RHaver is the guy who built moneypot, bustabit, that lottery thing...

Hi there,

If I believe correctly:

The player made quite a number of bets over the limit, and I believe there was another reason too that I can't
remember on top of my head, I'll have to check with the guys again. Stay tuned.

The player also received a second chance with his deposit + bonus to have another go at the games,
and the first thing he did was to go over the limit again with his first spin that he made. Hence
resulting in the final confiscation.

Mike

What about in the case of worthyou: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.14704015

He by all accounts is a legitimate player, who accidentally bet over the limit in a small number of bets? According to his side of the events (which were never rebutted) that appeared to result in his entire account funds being confiscated?

(There's also a few other accounts of the same thing happening with larger amounts of money as well)