Welcome back, Deprived.
In case you are worrying about how to manage the dividend paying and how to enable trading between fund holders, maybe you could have a look at Counterparty. (https://www.counterparty.co/). It's a decentralized exchange based on the BTC blockchain that requires only trust on the open source codes and the asset issuer (that is you).
Simply said, you can issue DMS SELLING and DMS MINING on counterparty (issue two assets cost 10 xcp = 0.07 BTC now). Then you can send these two assets to holders' BTC addresses based on the list you have (the cost, including miners fee and anti dust fee, depends on how many holders there, around 0.001 * N). This is one time trouble and later on you can distribute dividend by only one command (distributing dividend in BTC will be released very soon). Moreover, you can put buy back orders with the price (in BTC) you like, and fund holders can exchange their holdings at their prefer price as well. All these transactions are transparent and verifiable in the blockchain.
Disclaimer: I am a counterparty currency (XCP) holder, therefore I may be benefited if you choose to use Counterparty. However, I'd like to highlight that the only XCP you need is the 10 XCP to issue the assets. Later on, you can distribute the dividend and exchange all in BTC. Neither you nor any DMS holder need to buy any XCP (if you want, I can send you 10 XCP for issurance). Therefore, the benefit XCP holders get is just that more assets lead to more awareness.
Anyway, this is just a suggestion if you cannot find a trustworthy centralized exchange. No intention to preach how wonderful the Counterparty is. It is just the only working DEX now, and anyone will have his/her own judgement on whether or how well it works.
BTW, Deprived, really appreciate if you could explain why you were absent for so long, if it is not too inconvenient for you. Thanks.
Topic: [BTC-TC] Deprived Mining Speculation (DMS) - page 10. (Read 198958 times)
I would expect there's more than enough btc in the wallet to bring DMS.MINING up to date, which should be Deprived's first priority.
It's anyone's guess when CIPHERMINE.B1 will be liquid or redeemable so I'm not sure what the go is there. I've given up waiting for the exchange and I'm trying to get mine redeemed.
I am glad you are OK Deprived, but you've aged me. If you disappear again I'll be resuming my inquiries to identify you, as you should expect.
It's anyone's guess when CIPHERMINE.B1 will be liquid or redeemable so I'm not sure what the go is there. I've given up waiting for the exchange and I'm trying to get mine redeemed.
I am glad you are OK Deprived, but you've aged me. If you disappear again I'll be resuming my inquiries to identify you, as you should expect.
I can say even without access to the spreadsheets that there's enough cash to bring MINING up to date - based purely on where difficulty now is. In fact I'm certain there'll also be an immediate cash dividend due on SELLING.
On CipherermINE.B1 I'll comment further when I'm sober and home on Saturday.
As far as my identity and reason for absence is concerned I'll also be commenting - and taking some steps to avoid a recurrence of the recent situation. In principle I've no objection to revealing my identity to you (and other larger investors) : running off with your investment is not (and never has been) something I've intended.
If anyone has demonstrable losses caused by my absence (by which I mean actual costs incurred - not "I could have sold when BTC was 1200 if DMS had been relisted and CIPHERMINE.B1 had traded at face value") then I'm fine with covering them. Lack of funds was never (and isn't) an issue for me.
Now that Deprived is back, I propose that we vote to shut this operation down, somehow. This security is not viable without an exchange, and everyone would gain.
DMS.MINING shareholders would benefit greatly. According to the terms for a shutdown, DMS.MINING shares would get 365 times the daily dividend, which is currently about 0.00000066 BTC -- for a total of 0.0002 BTC. Thats is much more than they could get by continuing to receive daily dividends.
The DMS.MINING payout plus the unpaid dividends are certainly much less than the last price of a DMS.MINING share, so DMS.SELLING shareholders would get a decent return.
It's a good outcome for everyone.
DMS.MINING shareholders would benefit greatly. According to the terms for a shutdown, DMS.MINING shares would get 365 times the daily dividend, which is currently about 0.00000066 BTC -- for a total of 0.0002 BTC. Thats is much more than they could get by continuing to receive daily dividends.
The DMS.MINING payout plus the unpaid dividends are certainly much less than the last price of a DMS.MINING share, so DMS.SELLING shareholders would get a decent return.
It's a good outcome for everyone.
He'd need to render all missing dividends before doing such, which would likely wipe out most reserves, no? I haven't bothered backtracking it all.
Normally, the reason for not closing the fund would be that paying 365 days of mining dividends would drain the fund (which normally holds between 400 and 410 days). However, the difficulty has risen so much that the fund now holds about 4400 days.
Miners underestimated the rise in difficulty, so catching up the dividends will definitely not cost more than the NAV/U. The closing payout is only 0.0002 BTC, so it is likely that DMS.SELLING will also get a payout, and without going through the actual numbers I believe it will return a profit.
I havent done (and can't presently do) any of the math but my every instinct says that even after paying all MINING dividends there'll be a dividend due to SELLING. That dpesn't, howver, mean SELLING should look to pay 300 days more dividends to MINING - even without any spreadsheet in front of me I'm condfident I can offer a better deal t o SELLING than that - but if others want to offer that then I obviously won't stand in their way. WHich is why there'll be no vote on it - as I'll personally be offering a better deal to all SELLING holders than such a vote could possibly deliver (such a vote couldn't assign a non-zero value to CIPHERMINE.B1).
I have no intention at all of trying to steamroll either MINING or SELLING into accepting a buyout - both will 100% have the right to, without penalty, receive all benefits due to them under the original contract. But neither will I put to vote something which is, essentially, worthless - given that I'm personally willing to offer better to the voters (SELLING) immediately.
So long as it isn't impossible due to block-chain limitations ALL outstanding dividends WILL be paid promptly (subject to confirming the email/BTC addresses) so any judgment of what's fair has to be made on that basis.
Same here, welcome back.
So I guess the schedule is now
So I guess the schedule is now
- resurrect a listing from btct
- check addresses
- pay dividends
- buy back shares?
- profit?
Not at home (and fairly drunk) so can't lookup figures - those will have to wait until Saturday.
I don't plan to raise a vote for SELLING to close down but I DO plan to offer an immediate exit for MINING & SELLING if they choose. That wou;d be pitched at less than 300 days of dividend for MINING (I'm not in touch with recent difficulty changes but am sure it's still rising so a 300 day buyout from SELLING would make no sense to SELLING holders. If anyone wants to offer more than me for MINING then they can - I'll offer to buyout at what I'm personally comfortable offering and if others want to offer more they can.). Noone will be forced to accept any buyout and my intention is to pay off all outstanding dividends (to the extent that they can be paid from cash) with myself shouldering the transaction costs for doing that (likely only about 1 BTC total at most).
Noone will be forced to take a deal they don't want to - all costs associated with my tardiness will be absorbed by me personally and anyone who wants to hang on for what they're entitled to by contract will be able to do so at no cost to themself. Until I've had a look at recent difficulty changes I can't say what I'll offer - but I'd expect it to be nearer 150 days at current rate for MINING than to 300 days. An opportunity WILL be offered for others to offer more so as to maximise what people can receive - but there's no way I can in good conscience even consider a vote for SELLING buyout MINING at 300 days dividend - as the basic premise of such a vote would have to be that difficulty will fall or (at a minimum) not rise : and I don't believe that to be true.
I'll explain what I'm offering (and why) then anyone who disagrees will be free to offer more (but note than for SELLING I'll be offering cash now + a pro-rata share of whatver is recovered in respect of the CIPHERMINE.B1s - I won't be offering to buy those at all).
Off to bed now before work tomorrow -will try to touch base tomorrow evening but it'll almost certainly be Saturday before I have access to my data and can provide actual numbers.
Now that Deprived is back, I propose that we vote to shut this operation down, somehow. This security is not viable without an exchange, and everyone would gain.
DMS.MINING shareholders would benefit greatly. According to the terms for a shutdown, DMS.MINING shares would get 365 times the daily dividend, which is currently about 0.00000066 BTC -- for a total of 0.0002 BTC. Thats is much more than they could get by continuing to receive daily dividends.
The DMS.MINING payout plus the unpaid dividends are certainly much less than the last price of a DMS.MINING share, so DMS.SELLING shareholders would get a decent return.
It's a good outcome for everyone.
DMS.MINING shareholders would benefit greatly. According to the terms for a shutdown, DMS.MINING shares would get 365 times the daily dividend, which is currently about 0.00000066 BTC -- for a total of 0.0002 BTC. Thats is much more than they could get by continuing to receive daily dividends.
The DMS.MINING payout plus the unpaid dividends are certainly much less than the last price of a DMS.MINING share, so DMS.SELLING shareholders would get a decent return.
It's a good outcome for everyone.
He'd need to render all missing dividends before doing such, which would likely wipe out most reserves, no? I haven't bothered backtracking it all.
Normally, the reason for not closing the fund would be that paying 365 days of mining dividends would drain the fund (which normally holds between 400 and 410 days). However, the difficulty has risen so much that the fund now holds about 4400 days.
Miners underestimated the rise in difficulty, so catching up the dividends will definitely not cost more than the NAV/U. The closing payout is only 0.0002 BTC, so it is likely that DMS.SELLING will also get a payout, and without going through the actual numbers I believe it will return a profit.
Same here, welcome back.
So I guess the schedule is now
So I guess the schedule is now
- resurrect a listing from btct
- check addresses
- pay dividends
- buy back shares?
- profit?
Great you are back deprived.
Now that Deprived is back, I propose that we vote to shut this operation down, somehow. This security is not viable without an exchange, and everyone would gain.
DMS.MINING shareholders would benefit greatly. According to the terms for a shutdown, DMS.MINING shares would get 365 times the daily dividend, which is currently about 0.00000066 BTC -- for a total of 0.0002 BTC. Thats is much more than they could get by continuing to receive daily dividends.
The DMS.MINING payout plus the unpaid dividends are certainly much less than the last price of a DMS.MINING share, so DMS.SELLING shareholders would get a decent return.
It's good outcome for everyone.
DMS.MINING shareholders would benefit greatly. According to the terms for a shutdown, DMS.MINING shares would get 365 times the daily dividend, which is currently about 0.00000066 BTC -- for a total of 0.0002 BTC. Thats is much more than they could get by continuing to receive daily dividends.
The DMS.MINING payout plus the unpaid dividends are certainly much less than the last price of a DMS.MINING share, so DMS.SELLING shareholders would get a decent return.
It's good outcome for everyone.
He'd need to render all missing dividends before doing such, which would likely wipe out most reserves, no? I haven't bothered backtracking it all.
There's an estimate of outstanding dividends on page 87 of this thread. I don't know if it's accurate, but it adds up to ~380 BTC worth of dividends, where the NAV after the last dividend payment was ~414 BTC. So almost all funds are due to be distributed as dividends. Obviously, with two thirds of the BTC locked up in Ciphermine bonds, these payments can't be done fully. Not entirely sure what the process here is, but I assume that MINING holders can get paid, while SELLING holders have to wait for the Ciphermine bonds to be liquidated.
After the current outstanding dividends are paid, shutting down the operation is an option, but not one that is in the best interest of SELLING holders (unless they assume that MINING will earn more than 365 times the current daily dividend), so I doubt they'd vote in favour.
Might I suggest taking a look at 796.com for securities. It's licensed in Hong Kong so it shouldn't run into the same regulatory problems you saw with BTC-TC.
Now that Deprived is back, I propose that we vote to shut this operation down, somehow. This security is not viable without an exchange, and everyone would gain.
DMS.MINING shareholders would benefit greatly. According to the terms for a shutdown, DMS.MINING shares would get 365 times the daily dividend, which is currently about 0.00000066 BTC -- for a total of 0.0002 BTC. Thats is much more than they could get by continuing to receive daily dividends.
The DMS.MINING payout plus the unpaid dividends are certainly much less than the last price of a DMS.MINING share, so DMS.SELLING shareholders would get a decent return.
It's good outcome for everyone.
DMS.MINING shareholders would benefit greatly. According to the terms for a shutdown, DMS.MINING shares would get 365 times the daily dividend, which is currently about 0.00000066 BTC -- for a total of 0.0002 BTC. Thats is much more than they could get by continuing to receive daily dividends.
The DMS.MINING payout plus the unpaid dividends are certainly much less than the last price of a DMS.MINING share, so DMS.SELLING shareholders would get a decent return.
It's good outcome for everyone.
He'd need to render all missing dividends before doing such, which would likely wipe out most reserves, no? I haven't bothered backtracking it all.
There's an estimate of outstanding dividends on page 87 of this thread. I don't know if it's accurate, but it adds up to ~380 BTC worth of dividends, where the NAV after the last dividend payment was ~414 BTC. So almost all funds are due to be distributed as dividends. Obviously, with two thirds of the BTC locked up in Ciphermine bonds, these payments can't be done fully. Not entirely sure what the process here is, but I assume that MINING holders can get paid, while SELLING holders have to wait for the Ciphermine bonds to be liquidated.
After the current outstanding dividends are paid, shutting down the operation is an option, but not one that is in the best interest of SELLING holders (unless they assume that MINING will earn more than 365 times the current daily dividend), so I doubt they'd vote in favour.
I would expect there's more than enough btc in the wallet to bring DMS.MINING up to date, which should be Deprived's first priority.
It's anyone's guess when CIPHERMINE.B1 will be liquid or redeemable so I'm not sure what the go is there. I've given up waiting for the exchange and I'm trying to get mine redeemed.
I am glad you are OK Deprived, but you've aged me. If you disappear again I'll be resuming my inquiries to identify you, as you should expect.
It's anyone's guess when CIPHERMINE.B1 will be liquid or redeemable so I'm not sure what the go is there. I've given up waiting for the exchange and I'm trying to get mine redeemed.
I am glad you are OK Deprived, but you've aged me. If you disappear again I'll be resuming my inquiries to identify you, as you should expect.
Now that Deprived is back, I propose that we vote to shut this operation down, somehow. This security is not viable without an exchange, and everyone would gain.
DMS.MINING shareholders would benefit greatly. According to the terms for a shutdown, DMS.MINING shares would get 365 times the daily dividend, which is currently about 0.00000066 BTC -- for a total of 0.0002 BTC. Thats is much more than they could get by continuing to receive daily dividends.
The DMS.MINING payout plus the unpaid dividends are certainly much less than the last price of a DMS.MINING share, so DMS.SELLING shareholders would get a decent return.
It's good outcome for everyone.
DMS.MINING shareholders would benefit greatly. According to the terms for a shutdown, DMS.MINING shares would get 365 times the daily dividend, which is currently about 0.00000066 BTC -- for a total of 0.0002 BTC. Thats is much more than they could get by continuing to receive daily dividends.
The DMS.MINING payout plus the unpaid dividends are certainly much less than the last price of a DMS.MINING share, so DMS.SELLING shareholders would get a decent return.
It's good outcome for everyone.
He'd need to render all missing dividends before doing such, which would likely wipe out most reserves, no? I haven't bothered backtracking it all.
Now that Deprived is back, I propose that we vote to shut this operation down, somehow. This security is not viable without an exchange, and everyone would gain.
DMS.MINING shareholders would benefit greatly. According to the terms for a shutdown, DMS.MINING shares would get 365 times the daily dividend, which is currently about 0.00000066 BTC -- for a total of 0.0002 BTC. Thats is much more than they could get by continuing to receive daily dividends.
The DMS.MINING payout plus the unpaid dividends are certainly much less than the last price of a DMS.MINING share, so DMS.SELLING shareholders would get a decent return.
It's good outcome for everyone.
DMS.MINING shareholders would benefit greatly. According to the terms for a shutdown, DMS.MINING shares would get 365 times the daily dividend, which is currently about 0.00000066 BTC -- for a total of 0.0002 BTC. Thats is much more than they could get by continuing to receive daily dividends.
The DMS.MINING payout plus the unpaid dividends are certainly much less than the last price of a DMS.MINING share, so DMS.SELLING shareholders would get a decent return.
It's good outcome for everyone.
However, given DMS's large stake in CIPHERMINE.B1 and given that you've now reappeared, Deprived, I am willing to process those dividends manually. This offer is not extended to any other bondholders, sorry (there are too many). Also, if you'd actually been around and answering emails sooner D I'd have offered this to you directly sooner as well, but your email account appeared to be a black hole so I didn't bother.
Deprived, it is good to have you back, but frankly I'm astonished that someone of your caliber would cast such aspersions without checking the facts!
Further, CIPHERMINE.B1 and CIPHERMINE dividends are quite separate. We are making a profit under CIPHERMINE since that is based on what we mine, not what our outstanding liabilities are on our balance sheet! The only P&L cost associated with the bonds are the interest payments, which have been deducted from mining profits and, as mentioned above, have been safely sequestered away until such a time as we can pay them out.
Kate.
PS. For your convenience I've uploaded a PDF of the BTC-TC "contract" page for CIPHERMINE.B1, here. Unfortunately I did not forsee the possibility of the exchange failing/closing combined with this bloody minimum transaction limit getting in the way. In the circumstances we're doing the best we can (ie. building a new exchange so that your securities will be liquid again!). The entirety of the funds were spent on mining hardware, as planned.
Kate what is the base price EUR/BTC(at the time of the issue of CIPHERMINE.B1) that is used for calculating the dividend,. Deprived, it is good to have you back, but frankly I'm astonished that someone of your caliber would cast such aspersions without checking the facts!
Further, CIPHERMINE.B1 and CIPHERMINE dividends are quite separate. We are making a profit under CIPHERMINE since that is based on what we mine, not what our outstanding liabilities are on our balance sheet! The only P&L cost associated with the bonds are the interest payments, which have been deducted from mining profits and, as mentioned above, have been safely sequestered away until such a time as we can pay them out.
Kate.
PS. For your convenience I've uploaded a PDF of the BTC-TC "contract" page for CIPHERMINE.B1, here. Unfortunately I did not forsee the possibility of the exchange failing/closing combined with this bloody minimum transaction limit getting in the way. In the circumstances we're doing the best we can (ie. building a new exchange so that your securities will be liquid again!). The entirety of the funds were spent on mining hardware, as planned.
If i understand things correctly the dividend per share should have been 3800 satoushi per share each week if the price at the time of the dividend would be exactly the same as at the time of the bond was issued. If for example the EUR/BTC price is at 5 times higher at a time to issue dividend it would then be 760 satouchi per share instead, still the only share holders that would not be able to get there dividend every week would be those having less than 8 shares or something, everyone else should be able to get there dividend every week without any problems, isen't that the case ?
Where is the list of dividend that should have been payed per share for the weekly dividends that haven't been payed out after the last payment that was on 24/11/2013(the date that you mentioned in your other post), it should be 15 weekly dividend if i got it right so unless the avg btcprice has been over 10-11 times what it was when the bond issued, everyone even those with only 1 bond should have got dividend during this period at least once, minimum transaction limit shouldn't effect that and everyone with more than 1 share should have got dividends more often.
Nice to see you back, Deprived, but... because no one asked:
Where the f*** have you been for several month without a chance to drop a few words here?
Where the f*** have you been for several month without a chance to drop a few words here?
Knee-deep in wtf-zone.
Not sure what's happening with Ciphermine.B1 - but if Kate's paying dividends to Ciphermine then it looks like it may be a scam. I say that because common-sense suggests Ciphermine is making a huge loss (its liabilities - denominated in BTC - are rising far faster than it can conceivably be mining coins). If she's pretending its making a profit and paying dividends, hence increasing the extent to which it has negative equity, then that is defrauding bold-honders (paying dividends to equity holders when unable to service debt is basically fraud/theft). The conflict of interest I referred to previously (in respect of me becoming invovled in her exchange) was basically that point - that it would be unwise for me to increase financial links with her with the likelihood of me having to initiate civil and/or criminal proceedings against her in respect of the bonds.
As I have stated multiple times in the past, we cannot pay the CIPHERMINE.B1 dividends because the size of the smallest dividend (ie. one one hundred thousandth of EUR 340 in BTC), even with the amassed amount over the last few months, is below the minimum transaction limit. A quote from CIPHERMINE.B1's thread:
Quote
Apologies for both my absence (I have been very unwell) and for the lack of dividends. Unfortunately the siutation has not changed since I last updated you about it; the smallest dividend payment is still below the "dust" level / minimum transaction size level for the bitcoin network, and I therefore cannot send an aggregated payment. We have many single bondholders and even with an aggregated balance of several BTC now, one hundred thousandth of a few BTC is below the minimum transaction size which will be accepted by the network. This will not be a problem once they are on CipherTrade, but for the time being we're a bit scuppered.
For the time being please consider CIPHEMINE.B1 to be frozen. However, the dividends will still be paid and are being sequestered safely. They are still calculated based on the 30 day weighted moving average price (ie. you get more when BTC is rising, as it generally has been in recent months). I do have a conundrum now though in terms of how to keep the dividends now that I've simplified our approach re. CIPHERMINE divi calcs (ie. the BitStamp account gets completely emptied). Currently the CIPHERMINE.B1 divis are BTC in a cold wallet, which has been good for investors thus far but I understand that increases your risk.
I cannot do anything else right now, but CipherTrade is poised to launch after many delays so it will get resolved soon I promise.
However, should you wish to give us 3 months notice to redeem the bonds then please email [email protected]. The email must come from the email address associated with your old BTC-TC account. We will then send you a unique code to verify you do have possession of the account. Redemptions will only be made to the public withdrawal address associated with your BTC-TC account.
For the time being please consider CIPHEMINE.B1 to be frozen. However, the dividends will still be paid and are being sequestered safely. They are still calculated based on the 30 day weighted moving average price (ie. you get more when BTC is rising, as it generally has been in recent months). I do have a conundrum now though in terms of how to keep the dividends now that I've simplified our approach re. CIPHERMINE divi calcs (ie. the BitStamp account gets completely emptied). Currently the CIPHERMINE.B1 divis are BTC in a cold wallet, which has been good for investors thus far but I understand that increases your risk.
I cannot do anything else right now, but CipherTrade is poised to launch after many delays so it will get resolved soon I promise.
However, should you wish to give us 3 months notice to redeem the bonds then please email [email protected]. The email must come from the email address associated with your old BTC-TC account. We will then send you a unique code to verify you do have possession of the account. Redemptions will only be made to the public withdrawal address associated with your BTC-TC account.
However, given DMS's large stake in CIPHERMINE.B1 and given that you've now reappeared, Deprived, I am willing to process those dividends manually. This offer is not extended to any other bondholders, sorry (there are too many). Also, if you'd actually been around and answering emails sooner D I'd have offered this to you directly sooner as well, but your email account appeared to be a black hole so I didn't bother.
Deprived, it is good to have you back, but frankly I'm astonished that someone of your caliber would cast such aspersions without checking the facts!
Further, CIPHERMINE.B1 and CIPHERMINE dividends are quite separate. We are making a profit under CIPHERMINE since that is based on what we mine, not what our outstanding liabilities are on our balance sheet! The only P&L cost associated with the bonds are the interest payments, which have been deducted from mining profits and, as mentioned above, have been safely sequestered away until such a time as we can pay them out.
Kate.
PS. For your convenience I've uploaded a PDF of the BTC-TC "contract" page for CIPHERMINE.B1, here. Unfortunately I did not forsee the possibility of the exchange failing/closing combined with this bloody minimum transaction limit getting in the way. In the circumstances we're doing the best we can (ie. building a new exchange so that your securities will be liquid again!). The entirety of the funds were spent on mining hardware, as planned.
It'll take a bit longer to sort out relisting - as I'm now totally out of the loop on which exchanges are functional/trustworthy etc.
Welcome back. Havelock is your best bet in terms of an exchange right now.
Glad that you are back and that you are well.
Welcome back ^^
More frequent updates would be appreciated in the future
edit: With reference to CipherBond, I would suggest requesting the DMS-bonds to be bought back. It may cost 3 months of dividends, but since these are computed in EUR and the BTC/EUR rate has risen considerably since the inception of CipherBond, they don't amount to that much. And with the bonds sold back, a clean closure of the fund is an option if there is no reliable relisting location. And if the fund carries on, at least it won't do so with the burden of CipherBonds.
More frequent updates would be appreciated in the future
edit: With reference to CipherBond, I would suggest requesting the DMS-bonds to be bought back. It may cost 3 months of dividends, but since these are computed in EUR and the BTC/EUR rate has risen considerably since the inception of CipherBond, they don't amount to that much. And with the bonds sold back, a clean closure of the fund is an option if there is no reliable relisting location. And if the fund carries on, at least it won't do so with the burden of CipherBonds.
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