true, if you bet on all the horses you 'win'
not sure you been around enough engineers though to notice that some spend 90% of their time on their craft and 10% promoting it and the others do the reverse
Topic: Cointerra Mining ASIC coming soon - page 2. (Read 35548 times)
Neither company is trying to prove tech. They're trying to make sales like most companies. Business is business.
you not seeing the difference will have you picking the wrong horse
where's cointerra's pudding? talk when you can serve ok?
If cointerra didnt spend all last year with that "we will own 40% of the network by end of 2014" nonsense campaign maybe they would of been a bit more ahead on schedule... let's see what their plan B will turn into
actually, you're wrong.. I've picked almost all the horses so i am nearly certain to have picked a winner and I'm pretty pragmatic about the pros and cons of each of the horses. I'm a customer of bfl (alas), and knc (yeayy), and hashfast, and cointerra, and even bitfury...! and i was also an investor in asicminer (now sold.. at a nice profit). the only major bitcoin asic company I've not bought from is avalon.
you can't fault cointerra for trying to raise private money and build their own mine. everyone and their dog has tried to do that as well and not anyone, with one exception has succeeded in doing that as there isn't enough private money sloshing around to invest in bitcoin mining asics.
... but when the private investors weren't around to invest the total needed ($6-7m) then the model quickly switched to a pre-order model like everyone else has done. one day there will be enough private investors to fund the creation of private mines.. but that day isn't today (apart from a company out of stanford university called 21e6 llc, which did raise $5m of private money to make a private mine, but so far at least, no one's seen the mine).
but you are right.. you do have a point. cointerra were certainly delayed by trying to raise private money that way.. and had they not done that they would've been ready a lot sooner and would be shipping by now, so the effort to raise private money before pivoting and offering pre-orders certainly slowed them down... they may not have been out sooner than KnC but they would've definitely been out by now, had they skipped the attempt to raise private money. i still think thats an irrelevance.
-- Jez
Neither company is trying to prove tech. They're trying to make sales like most companies. Business is business.
you not seeing the difference will have you picking the wrong horse
where's cointerra's pudding? talk when you can serve ok?
If cointerra didnt spend all year with that "we will own 40% of the network by end of 2014" nonsense campaign maybe they would of been a bit more ahead on schedule... let's see what their plan B will turn into
my point was guys like bitfury and KNC are obsessed with proving their tech.. cointerra seems obsessed with proving their business model
the proof will be in the pudding
the proof will be in the pudding
Your point hasn't been well made. BitFury is silent and wants to prove nothing except sell lots of chips through resellers and third party board suppliers. And it is doing very well. Knc is the same (they just want to sell to happy customers). Neither company is trying to prove tech. They're trying to make sales like most companies. Business is business. How is Cointerra any different than any of these other companies. They are all trying to find customers and sell them Products and have them want to be happy and come back for more. There's nothing bleeding edge about cointerras business model and you seem a little confused about what point you're trying to make.
And you think cointerra's not trying to prove they have tech too? the company that claims to have the most powerful bitcoin mining asic ever? the company that has ex-intel, ex-nvidia and ex-samsung people designing bitcoin asics? the company that is using state of the art liquid cooling? you think they're not trying to prove they have tech?
my point was guys like bitfury and KNC are obsessed with proving their tech.. cointerra seems obsessed with proving their business model
the proof will be in the pudding
the proof will be in the pudding
Sure, I like what I've seen of the Cointerra system, but until it's out of the vaporware stage I don't plan to do anything other than watch. My choice; YMMV.
I completely believe that Cointerra are satisfied with their customers taking all the risk and if they 'get it right' so be it.. their main design focus has always been the business model not the specs
Agree with Korbman... theres no difference between Cointerras use of pre-orders and any other companies use of pre-orders. The only companies that can afford not to need pre-orders are the ones who didn't do 28nm silicon, which has very high NRE cost and requires taking pre-orders to get a big enough cash pile together to fund the NREs to enter production.
And of the chips that aren't 28nm, the only good one is BitFury... and that was painstakingly designed by hand in full custom. and was very lucky it worked... it could've easily not! And it ran at best, at half its intended speed. And its supposedly difficult to keep running and requires a lot of hands on maintenance.
Anyway, going back to Cointerras model... if there was a mature investor market, then an asic company could raise finance from private investors and fund the multi-million production cost of making high performance bitcoin mining asics... but since there isn't such an appetite for investment from private investors, the only model that can raise the cash required is the pre-order model... effectively crowdsourcing the funds required to enter production. As stated many times before, if the pre-order model wasn't done, and the asic companies did have a way of funding their multimillion dollar production of asics, do you think they would sell them as cheaply as they do right now... when they could mine with them instead ? (or sell them for a lot, as in-stock boxes, like avalon/asicminer did?)
The pre-order system requires that said asic company needs to establish its credentials and provide its specs and target delivery date... and then raise cash from its customers via pre-orders to crowd-source the funds needed to go into production (some estimated it was between $5-7m for a 28nm asic system). In exchange the customers get the asics for a better price, and get them earlier than they would've otherwise got. And its a free market, with many asic providers so customers have complete choice of who they're going to back.
Dont like the model? then don't buy. or wait til you can buy from stock, but expect to pay more per GH for an in-stock miner than a pre-order miner. Or why not avoid any risk entirely and buy gigahashes from someone who's selling them hassle-free in the form of mining contracts (like cloudhashing or cex.io). there you're paying $10-20-30 per GH for something that if you buy direct from a pre-order asic company might only be $3/gh plus 50% more in hosting costs that you pay yourself if you host it at home or pay someone else to host in a professional datacenter.
umm, yeah ok. except that cointerra has repeatedly stated that they did NOT use customer money for NRE and that they DID have private funding.
since when have they said that? no recent asic mining company - as far as I'm aware - has ever entered mass scale production without taking customer funds in the form of pre-orders. (and don't say bitfury because they only make the chips, not boxes and boards... )
cointerra said they raised $1.5m, which covers the engineer cost of designing the asic. but in order to go into production they would've paid the fab several million, plus their partners would require a million or two... plus they need to order parts to build the boxes... so, the total cash requirement to enter production is $5-7m... and they would've needed to take customer pre-orders before production could start.
Sure, I like what I've seen of the Cointerra system, but until it's out of the vaporware stage I don't plan to do anything other than watch. My choice; YMMV.
I completely believe that Cointerra are satisfied with their customers taking all the risk and if they 'get it right' so be it.. their main design focus has always been the business model not the specs
Agree with Korbman... theres no difference between Cointerras use of pre-orders and any other companies use of pre-orders. The only companies that can afford not to need pre-orders are the ones who didn't do 28nm silicon, which has very high NRE cost and requires taking pre-orders to get a big enough cash pile together to fund the NREs to enter production.
And of the chips that aren't 28nm, the only good one is BitFury... and that was painstakingly designed by hand in full custom. and was very lucky it worked... it could've easily not! And it ran at best, at half its intended speed. And its supposedly difficult to keep running and requires a lot of hands on maintenance.
Anyway, going back to Cointerras model... if there was a mature investor market, then an asic company could raise finance from private investors and fund the multi-million production cost of making high performance bitcoin mining asics... but since there isn't such an appetite for investment from private investors, the only model that can raise the cash required is the pre-order model... effectively crowdsourcing the funds required to enter production. As stated many times before, if the pre-order model wasn't done, and the asic companies did have a way of funding their multimillion dollar production of asics, do you think they would sell them as cheaply as they do right now... when they could mine with them instead ? (or sell them for a lot, as in-stock boxes, like avalon/asicminer did?)
The pre-order system requires that said asic company needs to establish its credentials and provide its specs and target delivery date... and then raise cash from its customers via pre-orders to crowd-source the funds needed to go into production (some estimated it was between $5-7m for a 28nm asic system). In exchange the customers get the asics for a better price, and get them earlier than they would've otherwise got. And its a free market, with many asic providers so customers have complete choice of who they're going to back.
Dont like the model? then don't buy. or wait til you can buy from stock, but expect to pay more per GH for an in-stock miner than a pre-order miner. Or why not avoid any risk entirely and buy gigahashes from someone who's selling them hassle-free in the form of mining contracts (like cloudhashing or cex.io). there you're paying $10-20-30 per GH for something that if you buy direct from a pre-order asic company might only be $3/gh plus 50% more in hosting costs that you pay yourself if you host it at home or pay someone else to host in a professional datacenter.
umm, yeah ok. except that cointerra has repeatedly stated that they did NOT use customer money for NRE and that they DID have private funding.
Sure, I like what I've seen of the Cointerra system, but until it's out of the vaporware stage I don't plan to do anything other than watch. My choice; YMMV.
I completely believe that Cointerra are satisfied with their customers taking all the risk and if they 'get it right' so be it.. their main design focus has always been the business model not the specs
Agree with Korbman... theres no difference between Cointerras use of pre-orders and any other companies use of pre-orders. The only companies that can afford not to need pre-orders are the ones who didn't do 28nm silicon, which has very high NRE cost and requires taking pre-orders to get a big enough cash pile together to fund the NREs to enter production.
And of the chips that aren't 28nm, the only good one is BitFury... and that was painstakingly designed by hand in full custom. and was very lucky it worked... it could've easily not! And it ran at best, at half its intended speed. And its supposedly difficult to keep running and requires a lot of hands on maintenance.
Anyway, going back to Cointerras model... if there was a mature investor market, then an asic company could raise finance from private investors and fund the multi-million production cost of making high performance bitcoin mining asics... but since there isn't such an appetite for investment from private investors, the only model that can raise the cash required is the pre-order model... effectively crowdsourcing the funds required to enter production. As stated many times before, if the pre-order model wasn't done, and the asic companies did have a way of funding their multimillion dollar production of asics, do you think they would sell them as cheaply as they do right now... when they could mine with them instead ? (or sell them for a lot, as in-stock boxes, like avalon/asicminer did?)
The pre-order system requires that said asic company needs to establish its credentials and provide its specs and target delivery date... and then raise cash from its customers via pre-orders to crowd-source the funds needed to go into production (some estimated it was between $5-7m for a 28nm asic system). In exchange the customers get the asics for a better price, and get them earlier than they would've otherwise got. And its a free market, with many asic providers so customers have complete choice of who they're going to back.
Dont like the model? then don't buy. or wait til you can buy from stock, but expect to pay more per GH for an in-stock miner than a pre-order miner. Or why not avoid any risk entirely and buy gigahashes from someone who's selling them hassle-free in the form of mining contracts (like cloudhashing or cex.io). there you're paying $10-20-30 per GH for something that if you buy direct from a pre-order asic company might only be $3/gh plus 50% more in hosting costs that you pay yourself if you host it at home or pay someone else to host in a professional datacenter.
I completely believe that Cointerra are satisfied with their customers taking all the risk and if they 'get it right' so be it..
I may be missing something, but how is that different from any of the other preorder models vendors touted? Aside from ASICMiner (as far as I remember), every other developer sold a 'place in line' regardless of whether their tech panned out or not.
Sure, I like what I've seen of the Cointerra system, but until it's out of the vaporware stage I don't plan to do anything other than watch. My choice; YMMV.
I completely believe that Cointerra are satisfied with their customers taking all the risk and if they 'get it right' so be it.. their main design focus has always been the business model not the specs
I'm waiting for the announcement and proof that they have working prototypes hashing at X GH/s and using Y watts. If they can demonstrate a good product at a good price, I'll consider buying. Otherwise no.
you know that is impossible.if there is 100% working product it can only stay on the shelf with ASICminer prices, or sell out in seconds
that is why the gamble on pre-orders brings the price closer to normal ROI. it is left up to you to drop your cost-basis as much as you can so you can profit against others doing the same
KNC, using a different example, *does* have a working product so the risk of a failed design is gone; the only thing left to consider before making a purchasing decision is price and delivery. BitFury and the BFL 65nm line are also in this category. Cointerra and HashFast are not there yet.
Sure, I like what I've seen of the Cointerra system, but until it's out of the vaporware stage I don't plan to do anything other than watch. My choice; YMMV.
I would say it is even simpler than that, speed and power usage are nothing if you can't put them into context along with the cost of purchase. How much GH/BTC is the only formula anybody need to know to.
true, that boils it down as long as that shipping date doesn't slip after you do your calculations
There are much more and better choices of competent ASIC mining companies to choose from. No one will be able to abuse their in stock monopoly like ASICMiner did when they have only BFL and Avalon to make them look good in comparison (lesser of the 3 evils).
It will be interesting to see how this rolls out, don't forget how big boys play like when Avalon shipped chips to that Swiss company instead of the group buys.. same can happen with HF & Cointerra or even KnC if the price is right
One funny thing with HF's MPP is that they should just ship more chips up front since everyone will know a ballpark ROI once they get to actually shipping miners. They can make a nice correction then since it will cost the same to them then as it does months later when they do their calculations up to 400% yadda yadda. If it is capped at 400% what is the true gain of seeing if they somehow DON'T have to ship up to 400% on the MPP?
All that MPP stuff is a total gimmick.. if they gave more upfront, that would scare away more buyers of later batches that it wont help as much but see diff climb even more, but they hope this MPP makes the current customers feel they aren't that screwed and will get some carrot on a stick later
your quote is wrong:
"In Bitcoin mining hardware, the factors that matter the most are the speed of hashing and the consumption of power. The CoinTerra GoldStrike1 based TerraMiner series is poised to be the leanest and most powerful Bitcoin mining line in the market"
the most important is speed to market & hashing... power usage is such a small % that if you are happy to shave 50% of power costs (tiny part of equation) and give up 75% of btc production (very large part of equation) you are terrible at math or just 'selling your book' as they say
if diff hardly grew, then yes you can show gains from less power but that is madness in this reality
I would say it is even simpler than that, speed and power usage are nothing if you can't put them into context along with the cost of purchase. How much GH/BTC is the only formula anybody need to know to.
I'm waiting for the announcement and proof that they have working prototypes hashing at X GH/s and using Y watts. If they can demonstrate a good product at a good price, I'll consider buying. Otherwise no.
you know that is impossible.
if there is 100% working product it can only stay on the shelf with ASICminer prices, or sell out in seconds
that is why the gamble on pre-orders brings the price closer to normal ROI. it is left up to you to drop your cost-basis as much as you can so you can profit against others doing the same
That might have been true back in the Bitcoin ASIC Dark Ages just 2 short months ago when all you had are 3 wonderful choices between BFL (long delay while being verbally abusive), Avalon (long silent that caused mental abuse) or ASICMiner (Ultra High price that abused and raped your wallets). But this will not be the case when CoinTerra start shipping in stock product next year. With KnC continue to sell more of their Gen1 while working on Gen2, HashFast shipping next month and maybe we will even see BFL Monarch next year (Sep?). There are much more and better choices of competent ASIC mining companies to choose from. No one will be able to abuse their in stock monopoly like ASICMiner did when they have only BFL and Avalon to make them look good in comparison (lesser of the 3 evils).
Hello Forum,
We are proud to announce that we have now reached tape out for the GoldStrik1 ASIC. You can find more information in our press-release at: http://www.prweb.com/releases/2013/11/prweb11314884.htm and on http://cointerra.com
We are proud to announce that we have now reached tape out for the GoldStrik1 ASIC. You can find more information in our press-release at: http://www.prweb.com/releases/2013/11/prweb11314884.htm and on http://cointerra.com
With the usual ~70 Day turn-around for Chips that puts you a little past mid January for your first silicone.
the usual 70 day turn-around is for people who don't pay extra to the fab to expedite the process
Turn around is commonly closer to 60 days, and we are expediting the process in several different ways. Ever since mock tape out we have been streamlining every piece of the manufacturing process so that we can deliver at break neck speed as soon as we receive chips.
your quote is wrong:
"In Bitcoin mining hardware, the factors that matter the most are the speed of hashing and the consumption of power. The CoinTerra GoldStrike1 based TerraMiner series is poised to be the leanest and most powerful Bitcoin mining line in the market"
the most important is speed to market & hashing... power usage is such a small % that if you are happy to shave 50% of power costs (tiny part of equation) and give up 75% of btc production (very large part of equation) you are terrible at math or just 'selling your book' as they say
if diff hardly grew, then yes you can show gains from less power but that is madness in this reality
I'm waiting for the announcement and proof that they have working prototypes hashing at X GH/s and using Y watts. If they can demonstrate a good product at a good price, I'll consider buying. Otherwise no.
you know that is impossible.
if there is 100% working product it can only stay on the shelf with ASICminer prices, or sell out in seconds
that is why the gamble on pre-orders brings the price closer to normal ROI. it is left up to you to drop your cost-basis as much as you can so you can profit against others doing the same
Tape-out is fine, but doesn't really mean much beyond "things are progressing". They won't know that the chips actually work until they get them fabbed, packaged, and tested. Even if they do functionally work, they may not meet speed or power requirements. Anyone remember BFL?
I'm waiting for the announcement and proof that they have working prototypes hashing at X GH/s and using Y watts. If they can demonstrate a good product at a good price, I'll consider buying. Otherwise no.
I'm waiting for the announcement and proof that they have working prototypes hashing at X GH/s and using Y watts. If they can demonstrate a good product at a good price, I'll consider buying. Otherwise no.
Hello Forum,
We are proud to announce that we have now reached tape out for the GoldStrik1 ASIC. You can find more information in our press-release at: http://www.prweb.com/releases/2013/11/prweb11314884.htm and on http://cointerra.com
We are proud to announce that we have now reached tape out for the GoldStrik1 ASIC. You can find more information in our press-release at: http://www.prweb.com/releases/2013/11/prweb11314884.htm and on http://cointerra.com
With the usual ~70 Day turn-around for Chips that puts you a little past mid January for your first silicone.
the usual 70 day turn-around is for people who don't pay extra to the fab to expedite the process
Turn around is commonly closer to 60 days, and we are expediting the process in several different ways. Ever since mock tape out we have been streamlining every piece of the manufacturing process so that we can deliver at break neck speed as soon as we receive chips.
Isn't that risky? It's like one guy wood carving the male end of a piece hoping it'll fit into the shape that this other guy is wood carving in a different building without the two seeing exactly what the other is doing.
If it doesn't go right, then a new tape-out must begin?
Hello Forum,
We are proud to announce that we have now reached tape out for the GoldStrik1 ASIC. You can find more information in our press-release at: http://www.prweb.com/releases/2013/11/prweb11314884.htm and on http://cointerra.com
We are proud to announce that we have now reached tape out for the GoldStrik1 ASIC. You can find more information in our press-release at: http://www.prweb.com/releases/2013/11/prweb11314884.htm and on http://cointerra.com
With the usual ~70 Day turn-around for Chips that puts you a little past mid January for your first silicone.
They're having breast implants done?
I saw it
Just don't feel like fixing it. But good one! 
Turn around is commonly closer to 60 days
There are no 60 days left this year. So much for December delivery.
Read again.
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