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Topic: Computer Scientists Prove God Exists - page 4. (Read 25293 times)

legendary
Activity: 1834
Merit: 1020
December 06, 2013, 06:44:29 PM
You learn about the world by forming a series of abstract categorical relationships about it.  This literally defines the way reality appears to you.  There is no wall for you to bump your nonexistent head upon unless categorical relationships exist between concepts such as "head" and "wall" and "you.". Without subjectivity, all that objective information is rendered completely unintelligible and is therefore meaningless.  

This is probably the main point of disagreement for us. I believe that, regardless of what concepts I might have about heads, walls, and me, that that wall will exist there, and will stop all heads from going through it if they attempt to. I.e. objective reality exists regardless of our subjective concepts, and we just make subjective meanings and concepts about the objective reality that exists around us as a way of trying to understand and categorize it. Thus there is a single objective truth, which is that stuff exists in whatever form it exists. We just try our best to interpret and conceptualize it based on our limited perception. To ignore or throw out this truth would mean basically danking the whole world's existence.

EDIT: Reading your stuff in the contexts of just your stuff, I'm realizing I may have been totally danked in the head regarding my views of what you are actually trying to say, conflating your and his claims to be saying something similar. Am I right that you are actually saying two completely different things, and he's just nuts?

1)  I think the problem is that I'm making a fine distinction that you're not picking up on.  We both agree that there is a single objective truth regardless of what we think that truth is.  I think we can also agree that there is objective information out there, and this objective information makes up walls and such.  I won't even necessarily contend that the information that makes up the wall ceases to exist in a Universe with no observers and no subjectivity.  The fine distinction I'm making is this: if information is not being communicated, then that information is utterly unintelligible.  If the information is utterly unintelligible, then we cannot call it a wall because a wall is intelligible...it has 'wall-ness' so-to-speak.  When you remove all observers from the Universe, you remove all entities that are capable of rendering the available information in an intelligible way.  And while this information might somehow continue to be available absent of any observers, we cannot in any way say that there will still be a 'wall' anywhere because the Universe you're describing has no way to communicate or render 'wall-ness'.


2)  As weird as it is, I both think he's nuts and I think he says some accurate things.  Unfortunately, it's pretty easy to make any statement and convincingly argue it to be true in one context or another.  The problem is that when one starts switching the context of their argument, contradictions are bound to arise.

Dank seems to be saying that because anything can be true in a certain context (e.g. If Bob likes pizza, and if Mike likes pizza, then Bob is Mike...to the extent that they are both pizza-likers).  He also seems to be suggesting that because anything can be true in a certain context, you can discover or even manipulate truth if you just "believe" in your own ideas with enough intensity.  In contrast, I'm asserting that 1) there is a set or context that contains all other sets and contexts, thereby uniting all subsets within a common linguistic or mathematical landscape, and that 2) there is a way to act as though you yourself are reasoning from this greater set about all lower sets, thereby creating a model that remains internally consistent at the highest possible level of generality.

Dank does, however, seems to place an emphasis on learning through direct experiences (which is why he uses LSD and such) to uncover truth in a different way.  I absolutely believe this approach is valid, and I would in no way rule out "tripping" as a valid means of accessing otherwise inaccessible information and/or re-rendering the same information in a new way.  I personally think our minds are more or less 'tuned' to a certain frequency of energy at one time or another and that there are ways of fucking with the dial.  He seems to share a similar belief (he advocates drug consumption while I advocate meditation).
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 250
Cuddling, censored, unicorn-shaped troll.
December 06, 2013, 06:29:28 PM
In scenario 2, the Universe can't be asserted to exist.  The act of observation is an act of measurement.  Without measurement, we cannot define anything.  Without definition, there is no structure to uphold the concept.  Measurement is absolutely required to define an event (e.g. such as calling something "a Universe" to begin with).  You can't even so much as label anything without observation to give you a preliminary measurement.
Then how can you be talking about a measurement? Have you measured it? Wink
legendary
Activity: 1680
Merit: 1035
December 06, 2013, 05:38:53 PM
You learn about the world by forming a series of abstract categorical relationships about it.  This literally defines the way reality appears to you.  There is no wall for you to bump your nonexistent head upon unless categorical relationships exist between concepts such as "head" and "wall" and "you.". Without subjectivity, all that objective information is rendered completely unintelligible and is therefore meaningless.  

This is probably the main point of disagreement for us. I believe that, regardless of what concepts I might have about heads, walls, and me, that that wall will exist there, and will stop all heads from going through it if they attempt to. I.e. objective reality exists regardless of our subjective concepts, and we just make subjective meanings and concepts about the objective reality that exists around us as a way of trying to understand and categorize it. Thus there is a single objective truth, which is that stuff exists in whatever form it exists. We just try our best to interpret and conceptualize it based on our limited perception. To ignore or throw out this truth would mean basically danking the whole world's existence.

EDIT: Reading your stuff in the contexts of just your stuff, I'm realizing I may have been totally danked in the head regarding my views of what you are actually trying to say, conflating your and his claims to be saying something similar. Am I right that you are actually saying two completely different things, and he's just nuts?
legendary
Activity: 1834
Merit: 1020
December 06, 2013, 04:48:04 PM
legendary
Activity: 1134
Merit: 1002
You cannot kill love
December 06, 2013, 04:38:18 PM
If he truly believes it, it is true.  Believes formulate your reality.  What you see and feel, you sense it because you believe in it's presence.  If you believe you see more than what meets the eye, it will become so.

If you believe you're limited to the capabilities of humans, it becomes true.  If you believe you are limitless, it becomes true.

By nature, a belief isn't false, but disbelief is.

A belief is more than a thought, it is a power of manifestation.  You believe you have thoughts.
Vod
legendary
Activity: 3668
Merit: 3010
Licking my boob since 1970
December 06, 2013, 04:17:12 PM
And?  It is better referred to as a belief.

A belief is not a truth, though, since truth is objective. Unless you're just using words to mean whatever you want them to mean (like Big Brother in 1984)
Whatever you believe is true.

I believe you are going to make a payment to Squall this month.

Can you confirm this in the repayment thread?
legendary
Activity: 1834
Merit: 1020
December 06, 2013, 04:05:06 PM
And?  It is better referred to as a belief.

A belief is not a truth, though, since truth is objective. Unless you're just using words to mean whatever you want them to mean (like Big Brother in 1984)
Whatever you believe is true.

Sorry, dank, that makes no sense.  If what you say is accurate, then everything Rassah believes is true and you shouldn't even be debating him.  It would also mean that there's never such a thing as a false belief. 
legendary
Activity: 1134
Merit: 1002
You cannot kill love
December 06, 2013, 03:48:28 PM
And?  It is better referred to as a belief.

A belief is not a truth, though, since truth is objective. Unless you're just using words to mean whatever you want them to mean (like Big Brother in 1984)
Whatever you believe is true.
legendary
Activity: 1834
Merit: 1020
December 06, 2013, 12:47:42 PM
And?  It is better referred to as a belief.

A belief is not a truth, though, since truth is objective. Unless you're just using words to mean whatever you want them to mean (like Big Brother in 1984)

I'd also like to point out that in attempting to make a truthful, objective statement about the nature of subjectivity you demonstrate why the two can't be mutually exclusive. If they were, then it would be impossible to make any objective statement about the nature of subjectivity.
legendary
Activity: 1834
Merit: 1020
December 06, 2013, 12:42:12 PM
Isn't "subjective truth" called "an opinion?"

The problem is that anything you would call 'objective' is still filtered through a subjective lens.  This is inescapable.  It's impossible to say objectivity exists independent of subjectivity because subjectivity is required to acknowledge that which is objective.  We simply don't have the luxury of asserting what reality would be like if we stripped away its subjective components.  You can't strip away a CPU from a desktop and still call it a working model of a computer.  Similarly, you can't strip away subjectivity and call what remains a working model of reality.  It's a necessary component of reality, and it's a logical impossibility to assert what a reality absent of subjectivity would be like because you have to communicate from a subjective reference point to do so!

If I walk into a wall, I will bump my head on it regardless of what I believe about it. So, agree to disagree. You can't conviince me, and I can't convince you, because we just have two completely different ways of looking at the world.

Though I do think that encouraging the thought that "everything is just a part of our imagination" is rather dangerous.

Exactly.  We have two different ways of looking at and interpreting information.  That is exactly why objective information cannot be absolutely independent of subjectivity.

If you walk into what you believe is a wall and you believe that you bump what you think is your head, then you have subjectively defined some real information.  That's what subjectivity does.  You learn about the world by forming a series of abstract categorical relationships about it.  This literally defines the way reality appears to you.  There is no wall for you to bump your nonexistent head upon unless categorical relationships exist between concepts such as "head" and "wall" and "you.". Without subjectivity, all that objective information is rendered completely unintelligible and is therefore meaningless.  Thus, you can't say what reality would be like without subjectivity because you would need to use meaningful words to describe a reality totally absent of meaning.  You can't say "well there would still be planets and stars and space without any subjectivity" because words like stars and planets and space are meaningful and are defined subjectively.
legendary
Activity: 1680
Merit: 1035
December 06, 2013, 11:28:17 AM
Isn't "subjective truth" called "an opinion?"

The problem is that anything you would call 'objective' is still filtered through a subjective lens.  This is inescapable.  It's impossible to say objectivity exists independent of subjectivity because subjectivity is required to acknowledge that which is objective.  We simply don't have the luxury of asserting what reality would be like if we stripped away its subjective components.  You can't strip away a CPU from a desktop and still call it a working model of a computer.  Similarly, you can't strip away subjectivity and call what remains a working model of reality.  It's a necessary component of reality, and it's a logical impossibility to assert what a reality absent of subjectivity would be like because you have to communicate from a subjective reference point to do so!

If I walk into a wall, I will bump my head on it regardless of what I believe about it. So, agree to disagree. You can't conviince me, and I can't convince you, because we just have two completely different ways of looking at the world.

Though I do think that encouraging the thought that "everything is just a part of our imagination" is rather dangerous.
legendary
Activity: 1834
Merit: 1020
December 06, 2013, 10:45:24 AM
Isn't "subjective truth" called "an opinion?"

The problem is that anything you would call 'objective' is still filtered through a subjective lens.  This is inescapable.  It's impossible to say objectivity exists independent of subjectivity because subjectivity is required to acknowledge that which is objective.  We simply don't have the luxury of asserting what reality would be like if we stripped away its subjective components.  You can't strip away a CPU from a desktop and still call it a working model of a computer.  Similarly, you can't strip away subjectivity and call what remains a working model of reality.  It's a necessary component of reality, and it's a logical impossibility to assert what a reality absent of subjectivity would be like because you have to communicate from a subjective reference point to do so!

legendary
Activity: 1680
Merit: 1035
December 06, 2013, 10:03:52 AM
And?  It is better referred to as a belief.

A belief is not a truth, though, since truth is objective. Unless you're just using words to mean whatever you want them to mean (like Big Brother in 1984)
legendary
Activity: 1134
Merit: 1002
You cannot kill love
December 06, 2013, 09:46:09 AM
And?  It is better referred to as a belief.
legendary
Activity: 1680
Merit: 1035
December 06, 2013, 09:22:05 AM
Isn't "subjective truth" called "an opinion?"
legendary
Activity: 1134
Merit: 1002
You cannot kill love
December 05, 2013, 08:32:21 PM
You're speaking in negatives.
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 250
Cuddling, censored, unicorn-shaped troll.
December 05, 2013, 07:31:30 PM
Excellent articulation my friends.
You know unicorns have no articulation and no friend.
Unless you're a fraud? Shocked
legendary
Activity: 1134
Merit: 1002
You cannot kill love
December 05, 2013, 07:27:23 PM


Weren't you supposed to leave for a long exile, thinking about ways to give squall his money back?



Weren't you supposed to leave for a long exile, thinking about ways to give squall his money back?



Everything Dank says is a lie.  That's why he has a scammer tag and such a low trust rating.
Excellent articulation my friends.
Vod
legendary
Activity: 3668
Merit: 3010
Licking my boob since 1970
December 05, 2013, 06:39:30 PM


Weren't you supposed to leave for a long exile, thinking about ways to give squall his money back?



Everything Dank says is a lie.  That's why he has a scammer tag and such a low trust rating.
hero member
Activity: 826
Merit: 501
in defi we trust
December 05, 2013, 06:32:37 PM


Weren't you supposed to leave for a long exile, thinking about ways to give squall his money back?



And were we suppose to believe that?
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