Topic: CryptoKingdom Uncensored - page 9. (Read 69660 times)

ffs give it a rest guys, be grateful someone is working on this shit show at all

Loaf was not getting any traction working with HMC when he was active last year, those guys were never going to agree to the type of changes Loaf is proposing to make to game design now. It's a crying shame what happened here in CK land but time to face reality, original CK is dead, anyone who tries a revival now doesn't owe anyone jack diddly squat, it's a new game, be grateful for an airdrop.

Loaf says he's starting a new game, with a new game design, and an airdrop on CK players.

The issues disappear in his version if he says so, that is a fact nobody can deny.

All we can do is decide to participate or not. This doesn't look like it's going to be a fork, but time will tell.

The guys you need to convince are the 3 admins from CK, not Loaf.

If he's doing a fork, he's carrying over the same issues over there.

They don't disappear.

Every time a person walks away unhappy business there's the potential that a brand new business can spring up because. And every new business create new action in the economy and every bit of movement the economy is good for the country and for the world.

CrazyLoaf is starting a new project with an Airdrop to to CK players as part of the initial emission of game currency, he's free to attempt anything he wants, nobody can force him to do anything, and he can't force anybody to participate. The simple answer to your question is 'loaf doesn't want to bother with depot mess', he's explained his thinking many times.

Maybe the question is why others expect him to do what they want, but aren't doing themselves, including me who is just watching and doing nothing.

Loaf isn't an admin of CK afaik, the guys who took over control of the Game and froze Risto's accounts after depo debt problems were sirjacket, monermooo & HMC. Probably more a matter of can't than won't as far as Loaf making changes to legacy CK, so it makes sense for Loaf to avoid more frustration from repeatedly trying to suggest things that weren't agreed to, and just move on to a new game where he is actually an admin and has some authority to implement his ideas.


edit: if the 3 current CK admins decided to try and deal with Risto's debts in another way and reboot the Game I would support that effort

The question isn't why someone else doesn't do this but why CrazyLoaf won't.

If you're criticizing a new coin, no one is going to say

Why don't you make a different coin?

So why are you saying that?

If there's something wrong, something IS wrong.

If risto has a history mental illness he could destroy his life without there being any conspiracy to avoid divorce settlement. Add drugs and alcohol and bad people around him, then the downward spiral is easy to explain.

Old residents think here that rpietila will be "madman" and will lose all the kriptovy $ $ to avoid a divorce with his ex-wife? It is difficult for me to believe that all these years he intentionally destroyed the reputation, without having a good reason.

Everyone always argues in favor of their bag, their self-interest, just have to accept that as a fact of life.

50 btc & 5k XMR will buy you a great life, those guys will never pay it back without legal force, so clawback is a non starter even if you agreed to it. What option does that leave you? Fuck all sadly

If somebody tries to implement what you say above I will wish them well and will follow with interest. At the moment the only people attempting anything at all in the CK world are Loaf and his dev team, with great input from syksy, and I'm going to support that effort because there isn't any other option to support. I could say I agree with your opinion in principle, but unless someone is trying to make it happen, there's nothing to support in a practical sense. I don't see this as an either/or situation, I believe what Loaf is trying to do will become an obvious fork eventually, and legacy CK will still be there at the end exactly as it is now, and Loaf's version will be a new game with different game design and economic engine.

Simple.
Risto gifted someone 50BTC so we should 'clawback' that money since that's not a good spend?
Hell no.
That's moronic.

Risto is an individual with assets he used however he wanted.
If he gifted someone 50BTC, that's his money. No clawback should be made.


You don't deal with them.
How do you deal with someone who got 50BTC? He already got them.
Risto sent it to him.
Not me, not you, not 'the game', not the B1, E1 holders.
Risto did.

The clawback is morally wrong.
It means you're supposed to lose money just by playing, no profit can be obtained in the game and must be distributed among B1/E1 holders, but they won't be able to profit either since if they made profit they'd suffer the clawback.


There doesn't have to be a clawback.




No it doesn't.

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What I'm saying isn't complicated as some say, it's rather simple.
Extremely simple.

You have B1 and E1 debts.
Risto has 'M'.

Distribute 'M' to B1&E1 holders.
Sell his assets.
Distribute to B1&E1 holders.
That's it.
Simple as that.

Don't feel bad, risto was depressed in those days but gave away his funds willingly for a purpose - to keep people interested in CK and create some reason for following the CK thread. I really miss that guy, he was basically a good person, just really messed up by family crisis and drugs, and too focused on the fantasy gameplay and religious thinking, ended up dropping him deep in the rabbit hole without a way to get out. Not very likely he will ever come back, but I hope he is OK.

Yep, that's the situation as I see it too, we either attempt to wind up Risto's accounts properly including clawback where applicable, asset liquidation, and equitable debt repayments to all creditors, or put everything to do with depo mess and Risto in the too hard basket, and concentrate on designing a great crypto Game. Not a good situation to be in, but that's where we are.

edit, disclosure, I am a clawback case too, I received a generous gift from Risto just for posting in the CK thread and asking a mod to send me some of Zec's M (or maybe it was CK asset). In retrospect I would consider that 'gift' dubious, Risto was depressed and almost suicidal then. He wasn't acting rationally when he let people do that.

Debt recovery process is a buffet breakfast for CK, people will pick the bits they like and leave the stuff that's unpalatable, but the functional process is pretty straight forward, you recover all possible funds owing to the estate, then you distribute to secured creditors first then unsecured etc etc

Unfortunately, clawback looks justified in many of those cases but nobody is going to harass players to pay back any funds now, we have to be realistic, who wants that shit detail - CK repo man - the end point would be to confiscate the amounts owing from player accounts for those involved in legitimate clawback cases if they refuse to repay, which is a can of new worms in itself.

So the only real issue is whether it's fair to pay b1 & e1 debts because they're easy, when we avoid clawback cases because they're difficult.

The moral high ground is only possible if you follow proper debt recovery processes, including first recovering any funds owed to risto, anything else is a self interested buffet

I'm saying we're all free to try anything now, if you suggest a plan to repay risto's debts that includes details to some of the concerns raised earlier, I will certainly consider it, what Loaf is proposing is detailed & possible to achieve, but it's not something I like exactly, but no outcome now is ideal, we're picking the best option, not an idealised 'solution' to a really difficult situation.

How are you proposing to deal with the clawback issue Loaf mentioned?


Just saying 'we should use risto's accounts to pay his debts' isn't helpful without details, you have to get down to brass tacks, the devil is always in the details.

The guy who was owed 50btc but was paid twice, how do you deal with him?

The guy who was paid a 5k XMR bounty but didn't deliver, how do you deal with him?

What about E1 debts?

What about risto's excessive  'gift giving' when likely experiencing mental illness & drug issues?

etc etc

When I say it's not 'cool' what I mean is it's not simple, and not likely to get universal support e.g. if you agree with clawback suggestions then what are you proposing to do if those guys say 'No', they wont return those funds to be divided between all debt holders? It's a mine field man!!

Again, what Loaf is proposing is not going to get universal endorsement, and it's not the optimum outcome by any means, BUT, it's simple, possible to do, and someone is actually trying to do it!

Debt repayment is:
- not so simple when you think of the details
- not possible IF there needs to be clawback and some effected don't send funds back
- nobody is even working towards that goal for +6 months


Being a critic is easy, proposing a workable roadmap is always going to make some people pissed off.

If you agree with debt repayment and clawback, please say so, otherwise please state your proposal, but it needs to cover these difficult issues, and you might find what you put in the too hard basket is just as unpopular with some people as what Loaf is 'doing' i.e. he's actually trying to implement his plan, he's not a critic anymore.


edit, if you favor debt repayment but no clawback, please say so, that might be achievable, but likely to be just as unpopular as what Loaf is doing

Are you saying that distributing Ristos assets to people he ows money to won't be cool with many people but distributing his assets to the game will?

 

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It's so easy to get unanimous support for the "fork".
Just pay the debtors what they're owed.

And don't spin this again on muh 1000BTC
It's not a 1000BTC
When the debtor refuses to repay what he ows, you seize what he has.
This has never been the games debt but the game wants to steal Ristos funds, the assets that belong to his debtors.

The fork will be started on immoral behaviour and I gotta agree with moneromoo, a bit scammy too.
Especially considering CrazyLoaf used to be the most vocal Ristos shill throughout the existance of the game and he constantly tries to avoid his assets being distributed to people he ows money to.

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A lot of missinformation is constantly being recycled throughout this thread

People are not going to invest in the game because there's a debt?
There is no debt if you pay the debtors

However, you can choose not to pay them and seize the funds for yourself and start the game on a foundation of immorality
What's better for the game?

That people know we honor our agreements?
Or that we act upon them as we see fit?

All the issues and options are known to everyone now. Time to move forward, some will support Loaf and some won't, but there's no point to further debate IMO, we've all made up our minds.

I was around the NXT community in late 2013 when the infamous ICO happened and 73 lucky bastards got rich overnight from taking a punt on what was then only the 2nd ICO (Mastercoin was the first afaik). So many people were hugely pissed off and jealous and called NXT a scam when it clearly wasn't, the ICO was public and open, just not many people were willing to send a complete stranger money in those days (how times have changed).

The point is enough people were pissed off to start a "NXT with a fair distribution" project as an attempt at a hostile take-over of NXT (i.e. NEM), and it started as a Fork without anything being added just a new 'fair' distribution, and for a while there was huge animosity and angst on both sides, NXT people defending the ICO and slamming NEM as nothing more than a cynical clone from jealous noobies with severe butt hurt who wanted to kill NXT because it wasn't "fair", and NEM countering that NXT was obviously a fraud as blah blah blah ... you get the point.

What we ended up with 4 years later is something very different, NEM went on to become a legitimate crypto project and attracted some serious dev talent interested in PoS consensus and created some unique tech with completely different source code from the original NXT, and most NXT supporters in 2013/14 received free NEM stakes, and now most PoS fans hodl both NXT & NEM and support both projects.

The animosity died when it became clear NEM wasn't going to be just a clone designed to kill NXT, and I think that's what'll happen here eventually with CK legacy and Loaf's game, once it's clear Loaf's version is only connected to CK legacy via the proof of burn airdrop things will look different, and we can all support two versions of CK without too much difficulty if they both exist in a few years time.

What we need most now is more of what Loaf and syksy are doing, game design & brainstorming.

We're here to make a game, but the conversation (particularly on IRC) has often times focused more on the B1/E1 items. Going to address this one more time and hopefully for the last time as we think everyone would much rather see game development than more depo-related posts (to match the tens if not hundreds of pages discussing the exact same thing here on BTCTalk).

Not going to lie, I lost my cool when talking with moneromooo on IRC yesterday as it is extremely frustrating to lose a lot of time and money (when the game was under Risto's management) and then have any efforts to try to revitalize that project be constantly met with calls of scam.

Personally, I lost money like many others buying/investing in the game and have depo claims as well. In particular, it seems people forget that first point ("many others buying/investing in the game"). We have a handful of users with large depo claims. The original CK thread still is the 2nd most viewed thread in altcoin discussion. There are so many more users that put money into the game and watched it evaporate.   

To discuss further, we have watched CK go from low activity to almost no activity. After the depo debacle, there were still new users checking out the game, we had over 50+ people on IRC, chat was more active, people (new and old) were bringing forth ideas, etc. There was potential then, and there is still potential, but it will be a much more difficult slog now.

However, focusing on the depo debts (and to be specific, the overtly negative manner in which some of the more vocal members of the community have discussed them in the last year) chased away players, new and old.

Anyone can look on this forum, prior IRC posts, etc. to see why the best way to move forward is to just start as cleanly as possible without this B1/E1 business and airdrop new (and imported) game assets to old users, and try to grow the playerbase and drive development by utilizing Risto's (as of now) insanely large percentage holdings of the game's items.

To reiterate, here is why this is being done in this fashion:

We have to verify depo items, not all users added themselves to Smooth's spreadsheet, etc.

Even if all users are 100% verfied, just paying them the tens, hundreds, and millions they are claiming represents a net outflow of funds from a dead game. No new user will join a project if they know money that they put into it will not help the project, but instead pay off old claims.

We have already seen that tens, hundreds, and millions in payment does not equal actual growth in the game. Again, we have people on the depo lists who were able to get this much out in fiat-terms from the game, were gifted the money by Risto, took advantage of his fat-fingering M/M3 orders, etc. On these same users, even if these users are still down in terms of XMR investment, they are up in fiat terms. And what have they done with their funds taken out of the game? Not support the game in anyway. Most are gone, never to be heard from again. 

If you want to claim the debts, let me tell you want anyone else would claim: the funds you got out of the game. That is called a clawback. So if you got 100 BTC out of the game, took out 50 BTC and were given 50 BTC extra by accident, were gifted 5k XMR to make a game token and never did it, or caught Risto's fat-fingering and got 5k XMR out of the game, guess what? Those funds need to be clawed back and shared with all affected parties!

And this focus on the B1/E1 debts ignores all users in the game who now own worthless game items. It doesn't matter if you have B1/E1 or just game currency (M) or even squirrel pelts! All of this is worth zero! You can't even get a few dollars worth of XMR into or out of the game as the only XMR depository (https://deposit.cryptokingdomgold.com) has been down for almost a month!

Overall, if you made some money off of Risto's misplaced generosity or by smartly playing the depo insanity, that's great! Be happy with what you have and stop trying to block anything from happening for all the other hundreds of users.

As a final point, some users are now trying to approach this from the angle of legal semantics. If you want to go at this as an armchair lawyer, I point to the above, specifically the clawback provisions. If you made money on CK during the depo time, that has to come back to the game and be shared by B1/E1 and game item holders.

Let's just put up BTC and XMR deposit addresses shall we? Expecting to see that ~1k BTC and ~100k XMR that flowed out of the game as a result of depo madness to fly back in no time!

On this point of notification, Risto is aware of his debts and I'm sure many people have contacted him in multiple formats regarding them. I know I personally emailed him multiple times, contacted him on a private BTC forum I am a member of (and got a response saying he was ill and had given up on the game). I even had a user check with him in person at the start of 2018 and got a response that he is not interested.

To conclude, if we get stuck fighting losing battles, it will take away from our focus. We're here to make decisions that work and get a game running.