Topic: CryptoKingdom Uncensored - page 12. (Read 69479 times)

Okay, awesome to hear that someone is still in touch with Karl Hungus! Just to be clear, by the talk of "economic arguments" it wasn't that we planned on taking over Karl's items/accounts at all.

It was more in line with the fact that some people said one reason to keep Risto's items just "there" is that it would work as a way to reduce supply and increase market cap (sort of like Satoshi's 1 million Bitcoins).

In response to that, Satoshi only owns 4.75% of the supply cap of Bitcoin. Also, if you factor in lost or inaccessible Bitcoins (lost via boating accidents perhaps), that is maybe another 15%-20% lost of the total supply.

So for one we are talking about a lot smaller portion "lost" in Bitcoin and we can't ignore the fact that Bitcoin has pretty much had a use case since the 10k BTC pizza days. CK has had a very minor use case and, looking at the game changelog for the past year, essentially zero use-case during its most recent history. 50% just sitting there won't cut it.  

Still, even if Karl's land, currency, and items are fully active, that doesn't mean the 50% of player accounts that aren't Risto-related will suddenly come online all at once. Going down the M "rich list," we see plenty of 0.5% - 3.0% supply cap owners that have not been seen for a very long time. So surely 10% - 20% of all currency and items in the game could just "remain" there until accessed by owners (if at all), reducing the supply float.


Part of the value we see for CK is that it did have a fair-ish distribution pattern over its lifetime (until it was heavily skewed back to Risto during the depo business).

It also is obvious that CK has one hell of a "proof of burn" valuation model. Just thinking of a few larger investors, easily 150k XMR was "lost" or "used" (depends on perspective) in the game, so around $50 million. And the total amounts could be far higher.

Finally, the original CK thread is still the 2nd most viewed thread of all time in "altcoin discussion" on BTCTalk. And it's been closed for posts for almost a year! From the names of the properties in CK to the posts on the threads, it is certainly part of the history of XMR in particular and crypto in general.


This was considered (the token part, not the "trick" part). But while this worked for something like Bitfinex, we don't think it is prudent to utilize here. For one, Bitfinex only lost a small portion of total assets and was able to "recover" those lost funds over time as people still traded there. Close to no one is using CK.

And even in light of some of the insane valuations out there on crypto projects, we think there is a long way to go from where we are ($0) to say where PepeCash was during the recent BTC surge ($100 million). We think more than raw market cap, actual in-game transactional volume is a better barometer of activity of anyway. We'd all prefer a game that has a $10 mil market cap and $1 mil in daily game volume than a $100 mil market cap and $100k in daily volume.

Back on the topic of the B1 and E1 debts, if you look at the Google Doc linked in smooth's "CK scam" thread, you'll see that there are only about 20-25 or so unique people on the lists, and there is a lot of overlap between the two lists. This doesn't compare to Bitfinex at all where EVERY user took a haircut and then received the BFX tokens. Overall, Risto's B1 and E1 depos is a really unnecessary can of worms to open (I mean what about M2 as well, I have a ton of those ), and the fairest solution is to try to grow the game's purpose and value for everyone still around, rather than a select few (and I am saying this as someone owed millions from the Risto's depos - so shooting myself in the foot here).


Didn't really want to mention this, but since you brought it up: if someone really wanted to get technical, anyone paid via Risto's depos could have their funds "clawed back" (as the assets that remain have to be shared among all users affected). So take out 50 BTC and have Risto accidentally send you another 50 BTC and he let you keep it? (And -- yes -- for those not aware, this really happened!) That technically needs to go back to the Risto settlement pot :/


Gringotts will continue to be its own entity. Coinshop used to do most of the market making in the game. But Risto cleared out a large amount of the assets and items. For what remains, they will be used to help grow and enhance the game. This will include market making (of not just Coinshop, but the other game and Risto-related accounts).

Airdrops and "giveaways" will be a big part of the initial push on CK, possibly in combination with a game currency purchase opportunity. We discussed in earlier posts a push to 1 quadrillion (1,000,000,000,000,000) in-game currency (don't worry: your % ownership will remain the same, as it will scale). We could airdrop 1 billion in-game currency units to each user across 100k users and still have plenty left over to grow the game further.


Ending thought: Syksy is awesome!

Great to see some momentum building here, really excellent!

If gringotts takes over from Coinshop as primary market maker it makes the game much more decentralised, previously with risto in control of so many things there was a lot of unavoidable perception of possible conflicts of interest, but now that's gone, and CK has a sizable war chest for development and promotion, awesome!

Will there be any airdrops?

While I agree that Gringotts market making activities will help CK become less centralized, I should mention that we don't see Gringotts ever taking over from Coinshop functions.

Market making is something every player can do, and it's one of the basic strategies players can use to make money in the game, including Game accounts controlled by admins.

Gringotts will be happy to see a Game controlled Coinshop active in Agora again when play resumes, hopefully there will be too many markets for one single entity to provide liquidity for.

Why not issue b1 & e1 debt tokens in the CK DB, let them trade @ junk bond and distressed asset prices for a few years, so the bold & brave can buy from current creditors for later profit.

Set a clause that should CK marketcap reach some hugely success level of 1 Billion USD, then CK treasury account pays out the b1 & e1 bonds @ face value as at the date the debts were incurred.

Setup option to use Karpeles Mt Gox accounting trick to pay out fiat value of debt at a time when crypto prices including M could be very high.

Just a suggestion, e1 and b1 debts from time when rpietilia was crazy, but if you want to honor them just create junk bonds and let them trade.

Hello all,

without having a particular strong opinion for or against any of the financial statements above, I'd like to pitch-in from a programming-/gamedev-level perspective on what route the game could go on - especially if it's made into a separate entity. This was just a basic oversight of concepts that I think ought to function as central nodes. Apologies that it's been ages since I did proper UML-charts or such, but I think those with programming experience can see the underlying overview (while it still is quite simple to grasp due to only modeling few of the key concepts):



A little bit about the classes:

The world map would be best suited according to my own opinion as a hexagonal grid on multiple levels; world-map level (most commonly used game style), local/city-level (kind of what you'd see in a jRPG or in old-school turn-based hex games like Panzer General or such), and then zoomed in -level (most vanity-level, mostly decorations, furniture, characters/pseudocharacters modeled).

The main division on character level would be to PCs (Player Characters) and NPCs (AI-driven player characters). Basically these combined create the base for supply and demand, while NPCs are much more abundant than PCs naturally. Still they'd belong to a family (="Guild") as well as a Faction of a sort (higher level than family, e.g. a nation; some time in future idealistically strong enough PCs and/or alliance of PC Families could create their own faction (=nation) and create their own set of rules such as who gets to pass, what road / sales tax they determine, etc etc.

The specific implementation of NPCs is a challenging one. I'd like to base them on a semi-individual level simulations, though what I was experimenting with cell automatons I don't think there could be easy way to incorporate those. As such, I'm leaning toward e.g. a random-walker based simulation per week (or distributed among a week = one year), to determine hotspots for markets, how long distances NPCs need to travel to aquire/buy food, whether they are close to a potential work place (such as a brewery, factory, farm, whatever...). Furthermore, instead of past implementations, NPCs would also require housing, thus rent/sold houses nearby hotspots of a certain kind also attract NPC renters/even potential buyers.

Events are quite vaguely defined, but they'd be the main form of actions taking place in the whole game world.

I know this is a very broad oversight and potentially unusable as it is, but I thought it'd be time for somebody to put something concrete in regards to how the gameplay emerges from the underlying mechanics. Feel free to give comments on what you think of it.

You're spot on, Risto was very likely suffering from an episode of mental illness when he created the e1 peg which led to the depo share run and debts, if he ever recovers his sanity he could rightly take legal action to absolve him from those debts on the basis that he was not mentally fit when he made those decisions. That's a good argument in favor of forking the Game though, and leaving those issues with CK legacy. If those debts are later found to be invalid it would create a hornets nest of problems paying bond holders for debts that don't exist, also, would the SEC be interested in these 'securities' ... best to leave these issues for Risto and his creditors.

CK is like a DAO where the game is owned by the players, Loaf is correct, nobody will invest new funds into a venture with this level of debt

what CK needs most to recover is a critical mass of active players, so the choice is between:

1- a fresh start, start by auctioning off game currency like gold or M as Risto did originally in 2014 to get dev funds i.e an ICO

2- write off the existing debts and fork the DB, use Risto's accounts as dev funds

Neither is a good option, 1- writes off everyone's in-game wealth, but 2- writes off only those owed b1 and e1 by Risto and some proxy accounts that might be his friends.

Anyone still following CK is certainly sitting on massively devalued in-game assets and wont invest anymore funds, or those who successfully bailed during the depo exit opportunity but still find CK interesting enough to keep watching. Getting new people requires consolidating the players already here, and that means not disadvantaging them anymore than they already have, BUT, unless someone has a great idea for generating 10 mil USD to pay off past debts, the obvious conclusion is to follow Loaf's roadmap, not because it's 'fair', but because there's no alternative other than starting over from scratch with a new game entirely..

The only other alternative to Loaf's roadmap would be trying to get some of the old players who exited with good profits when the depos were active to re-invest, but how likely is that, and at what terms? Doesn't seem likely, not unless CK is already up and running, so it's a chicken & egg problem getting those guys to re-invest.

Unless the devs Loaf has are working for free we'll need dev funds long before any chance of ever paying off 10mil of debts. If you work through the options Loaf's plan has the best chance of kickstarting the game enough to get new players, Risto's accounts are substantial, and using those assets doesn't dilute existing players, but it does get the dev ball rolling.

^^This,  CK still has great potential, but starting any reboot 10 mil USD underwater makes it almost impossible.



KH might not come back himself anytime soon, but I invested in Gringotts last year at Karl's invitation, and I'm managing the Gringotts market making account that has the ~460 bil 'M', and the remaining 'Phoenix Trust' shares which Karl setup in 2017 to assetize his large property portfolio.

Gringotts account is below
https://cryptokingdom.me/player/playerItems/1963

PhoenixTrust had a manager (hopefully still active), and PhoenixTrust assets are trading on Agora, so those real estate assets are still in play.

afaik he put all his remaining collectible items like coins in a FOC managed by Roopatra, and they also had a joint venture partnership in UnicornCorp which I don't know much about, other than it exists since the beginning of the Game almost.

So KH's economic footprint is still 100% active.

Karl told me last time we communicated in January that he's not following crypto while he concentrates on his health, but I can contact him in an emergency, and hopefully one day to distribute some returns to his family.

I'll be taking care of Gringotts market making operations as the junior partner in KH's absence.

As a community, we gave PJ a year (2015 - 2016) to actually develop a game worth playing. He didn't do that, and although he lingered on until late 2017, it's clear from the codebase that the bulk of the work he did was during that initial move from Google Docs to the website in 2015.  

We gave Risto a year (2016 - 2017) to fix the game after the pause. He didn't do that, but somehow managed to blow through tens of millions of dollars while also racking up tens of millions in debts.

The community had another year (2017 - 2018) to try to resolve things on its own. Instead, the game went from low to essentially zero activity. You can't even deposit XMR into the game anymore as https://deposit.cryptokingdomgold.com/ has returned "502 Bad Gateway" for at least the past week.

The game is taking over those accounts outlined earlier for development and marketing and not recognizing Risto's unpaid depository items. Literally no new player will join a game with around $10 million dollars in "debt" associated with around 50% of the game. Hell, if the E1/Euro is converted to BTC/XMR at the time of "withdrawal" and then brought to current market prices, the depo nonsense is even more insane.

Again, it makes zero sense to give the singer at the embassy -- burnt down due to an unattended candle left next to tens of millions of dollars of paper wallets (without any backups, ofc x3) for kindling -- over $400k as a result of the depo stuff. We saw one player who was barely active on the forums, isn't signed into IRC, etc. who has 115.5 BTC on that spreadsheet. So just casually give one person over a million dollars and another $400k? Then the game is out around a million and a half bucks and still doesn't have a game

Also, the current distribution is a mess with Risto-related accounts owning 50% of the in-game currency. Dominance was never that HIGH in the past. That has to be fixed, and we would like to see 100 - 1,000 active, new players. If Risto's stuff was locked and current players weren't diluted, then where do the new players (which the game desperately needs as #2 on its master plan, behind #1 - an actual game!) squeeze into?

Finally, to address any economic arguments that have been mentioned in the past, if we relaunch CK and try to give all old players their in-game currency, land, etc., there is still going to be a huge chunk (20%-30%, possibly more) that probably won't even bother accessing their accounts. For example, we have Hugh Mungus Karl Hungus with 10% of in-game currency, a ton of land, over 30k XMR invested in the game, and he was last seen Feb. 2018 and last posted Sept. 2017.

I'm sorry, I did not say you should shut up and not talk, of course you should try and convince people towards your point of view.

Which part do you not understand?
I'm aware it's a fork, and I have no say in it, but I'm trying to urge Loaf to reconsider this.


So why are HIS assets not being used to pay other players?  

I'm aware we currently have no alternative, but saying we should shut up and not talk to Loaf is wrong.
A game doesn't grow without a clash of ideas.
His word is going to be the last, since it is his fork, but we can still talk to him and hope he listens

There's no reason not to try raising donations for those that want to continue with CK legacy and want the Game to honor Risto's debts, but if people want to go with a fork, so be it. This isn't an either/or choice, you can support CK legacy and this fork at the same time, I don't think anyone is happy about this, but the reality is the Game is dead unless something happens now.

The Game has been stalled for 2 years now, Loaf has devs working on new code and design for the Game, I don't like what happened with Risto's depo debts, but it's his responsibility to pay, not the Game or any other players. If Loaf starts a CK fork, he calls the shots in that fork only.

We have talked about donations one time for starting the game, lots of people have pledged lots of XMR, in hundreds.
We could easily gather the money to develop the game.

In order to ensure full support of the current community, and fairness among all, I urge Loaf to distribute Ristos assets to people who he has an outstanding B1 debt with.

I ensure him, that certainly huge donations can and will be gathered among the people from ingame assets, M, XMR and BTC.
And honoring the current agreements will ensure the support of the fork among previous players of Crypto Kingdom.

In Loaf's forked version of CK Risto's assets are being used to pay for dev costs and marketing, in another fork Risto's assets could be used to pay his debts from the original CK, in another fork Risto's assets could just be deleted from the Game DB, in another they could be airdropped onto leprechauns.

The original CK will still exist, this is a fork, and as we all know from bitcoin history forks aren't universally supported, and everyone will be free to dump their CK fork assets and not participate if they don't like what's happening.

I don't see any other choice now, Speed has gone dark on his reboot and fund raising, Loaf is having a shot at a fork, what else is there? The game needs dev funds.

But the game is going to take Ristos assets?

Don't his assets belong to the people who have unpaid debts from his charachters?

His assets should be auctioned off and his 'M' spread evenely among B1 withdrawals
B1 losses are quite real, some people have invested real XMR for the purchase of B1

I agree this is not the games debt, but it IS Ristos debt.

I'm positive the game will acquire enough donations as this community has always primed in donating, whether it was to PJ or someone else.
Enough donations will occur.

However, Risto has an active debt, an if we're going to do something with his assets, we should transfer the funds to people holding the debt.
Later on they will voluntary donate to the game if they choose so.

You guys are right, we need to remove Risto's personal obligations to other people in order to move forward, and a fork is the best way to do that. I feel sorry for everyone who lost money, but I guess the rest of us can't do much about that now, not without burdening CK into the future. Crypto is always high risk investment!

It's time, save the Game!!

Can't wait to play CK again!

Just to be safe, say after the summer. We are hoping to get some of the basic gameplay restored as well (so rent/production pools, etc.), but looking more towards letting players be able to develop their own game modules for CK, so as to avoid the issue where the creator/king/whatever goes mad and takes the whole game down like paper wallets left next to flaming candles in the embassy

Yes, go for it! It has been a long wait, any idea when the game could start on a new codebase, before or after the summer?

I agree with Loaf, those people should get in touch with Risto and get refunded directly from him, they never played these accounts themselves, and probably don't exist anyway.