Topic: CryptoKingdom Uncensored - page 12. (Read 69696 times)

But that was made with their own choices not for them being scammed
All of us invested XMR/BTC, was there an option to deposit something else to play the game?
I deposited around 2000 XMR at the time

I spent 200 XMR to purchase CKG just before the game was unpaused


But Risto wouldn't keep 50% if it was distributed to 30 people on the sheets
He wouldn't keep any of it actually xD
People he scammed would
It doesn't matter his mental state was poor, people made losses with this, there are people who deposited new crypto to the game just to buy B1, and they were scammed
Does it matter what his state was?
He made contracts with individuals which weren't respected.

If Ristos items are going to be taken away without refunding the creditors, the game should at least be forked from a date prior to the depo scam.

Remember the XMR I used to buy CKG? I sold all my CKG to buy B1.
I have no XMR, no CKG and no BTC.
Fork prior to the depo scam or refund the debt holders from Zechariach.
At least use other chars for the good of the game, but use at least Zechariach to repay his debts.
I believe that would be a fair option.

Are Speed and the King in on this fork or are they planning/making another version of CK? Or are they out of the game completely?

Agreed. As anyone who has ever had admin access in CK can attest to, it was very disheartening to see that there was no "gamemaster" console or anything like that For example, probably the most developed module was the "health game," and all that was was a single admin page where the values were changed manually on a per item basis. Even for something like that, some degree of automation should be possible.  


On the Google Doc spreadsheets, across both E1 and B1 she has about $400k in depo payments. I was in CK 2016 onward and read most of the thread posts before then before buying into the game and never saw mention of her.

Risto may have mentioned that she gave him money to "invest" in the game (recall, also, that he pretty much said this about everyone "new" around the 2017 days). Again, if Risto was the proxy for all these people, they need to take up any issues with him.

Anyway, just using her as an example of someone who was not in CK that long (if at all) and would be a net outflow of funds that would do nothing to help grow the game. I am sure we could all agree that there are many others users who contributed more to CK that didn't get anything out of the depos at all and are not on those lists.


Risto-related accounts are around 50% of in-game currency (just going to call this M from now on to save typing). Again, we will not be recognizing the depo-related items. That is only for about 20-25 unique people, and there are far more that lost big in XMR and/or opportunity costs terms who are not on that list. Many of those same users are (or were at one time) major holders of M and game items. If they sold for pennies on the dollar post Risto exit, that was their choice.


On the new Agora, negative balances won't be allowed; at least as has been done in the past with CK (as mainly, it was a way for hackers to abuse the system).

However, yes an "inactivity tax" may be imposed (partly to see which accounts are inactive). Currently, we are considering a "Player House" and "Investment House" breakdown.  An Investment House would not have health, NPCs, and if it had property, it may only be able to engage in one pool (say rents) versus some of the higher activity ones (shops, lab, office, etc.).



We are talking solely about in-game currency M. M will not have quasi-stock properties (like dividends). There may be things like voting power/delegation and the like, but we will leave these open for now based on pending game design considerations.


There is a balance for this. As Gaben and I outlined above, many players beyond Risto accounts will probably be inactive (at say 10%-20% of total M supply cap). That is reasonable. But adding Risto's 50% of the game makes the distribution look terrible.

I know you are on the E1 and B1 depo sheets, but you and everyone else will be far better served by the game just progressing/developing than worrying about those amounts (which were made when Risto was in a poor mental state, so would a reasonable person looking on this scenario in hindsight even allow full recovery of those amounts anyway?).

Also, this very topic (Risto depos) made it where pretty much nothing happened during all of 2017 after Risto left. The current team now has the domain, source code, and complete database of the game. Some lines have to be drawn in the sand to move forward, and the removal of all this depo stuff is one of them.


Everyone - please offer thoughts on game design in particular. Syksy has done a great job starting the discussion.    

I agree with this.

As others stated, no one is going to invest in a game with a 10 million $ debt, but if Ristos assets are distributed to debt holders, the debt is abolished.
The game has no debt.
Risto and his chars do.


The game doesn't pay anything, Risto does.

And if the chars are inactive, better for us, it means it's more scarce and therefore more valuable.


In the game, with other players.
Supply&demand.


Nice

Also, have we rehashed any discussions about how this in game currency isn't a security yet? Because as long as there is an expectation of profits, it would seem like a security is being distributed and traded internally.

Right now of course there isn't even any crypto involved, so meh I guess it wouldn't apply to how cryptocurrencies are securities. But if the intention is to create a crypto issued on a smart contract then it's basically a security, aka ICO and nothing was technically burned.

If you fork some kind of dpos system and call it a utility token, then distribute it, it's still technically a security.

So long as this remains a private ledger system you probably aren't going to have long term potential sec or whatever the governing body is of your country poking around and all matters can be settled civilly. But as soon as a distribution based on crypto occurs, many things change.

Just wanted to make that very clear.

No worries, I didn't ever think anyone wanted to take over Karl's accounts (or anyone elses either), but KH was aware of the issue you mention, of having so many game assets and accounts 'inactive', and that's why he wanted to consolidate and simplify his accounts the way he did.

There are a couple of reasons why I think this issue will resolve itself over time though.

Firstly, negative M balances pay interest, and if you check the changelog you can see lots of accounts are currently being slowly eaten away by this 'inactivity tax', and this has been part of the Game rules for a while now, and it's a good mechanism to reduce the negative effects of inactive accounts over time, plus it adds realism to game play.

Secondly, once building payouts and taxes resume, those inactive property holders asleep at the wheel, or those with insufficient M to keep up with maintenance etc will quickly find their estate losses draining their M balances, and once they hit negative balances they'll rapidly enter an account death spiral of mounting property losses & increasing negative balance interest. Eventually when they can't pay their taxes the Game can seize their assets and auction them off to pay their debts, which again, adds realism to game play.

In the CK world HODL will only work for collectibles like coins, and M, and non-perishable items like weapons, other assets like real estate, consumables, NPC's etc will probably offer better returns, but only for active players who 'play' well, and that's what we want to attract new players, opportunities for skillful players to make money.

I appreciate the consideration to keep it open source. I agree that Ultima was probably one of the largest bottlenecks in trying to play the game. It became all about buying and selling as the entire game for newer players, while when I was watching during the spreadsheet days it seemed much more open ended.

There were parts of Ultima that were still managed through the spreadsheet, like the army encounters and tournament, and they seemed to be the most engaging parts, the story side of the market matching software that wasn't really incorporated into the website. The casino was cool too, and I think that was the direction that was being pursued - one where people would ultimately deliver their own websites that would provide the game utility to the end user, and the main focus of CK itself was just the order matching software.

In hindsight, maybe the focus should have been trying to put out a turnkey game with all modules centrally managed. Sure it's a proven business model and it seems to be the direction this is just beginning to be headed in now .. but that business model often relies on closed source executables in order to maintain the value.

There was a lot of people who put money into the game, I know I was upwards of 6k xmr. Of course saying that now has a lot more impact then saying it when it was less than three dollars or so. All in all I'm way up overall and I can't necessarily hold people accountable for capital gains in fiat on something that I traded hoping for something with a sub 1% chance to happen.

I think risto knew that as I suspect one of the motives of his repeated attempts to get people to go hang out with him at the end was that if in fact nobody really came when they thought they were having fun and possibly millionaires, they probably ain't gonna do much of shit if it went the other way ( it did). We just made a thread about it and carried on with life.

Also, doing some research about haanamaaria would reveal there there was a much longer engagement than a night of singing going on, so I'm not sure what that examples supposed to prove?

Overall I agree that a fork is the only path forward for this. Maybe we should take account of the percentage of the risto controlled accounts amount compared to the rest of the assets in the game? Any good numbers exist on this yet? Either way - maybe an auction of some sort with like 95% of the proceeds going proportionally to the old players that are on the sheet as being owed and 5% going to the new development is a reasonable idea, so long as the past generosity of the players is remembered knowing that with most of these people all you really need is a good idea and the balls to ask for a few dollars to get something off the ground.

Okay, awesome to hear that someone is still in touch with Karl Hungus! Just to be clear, by the talk of "economic arguments" it wasn't that we planned on taking over Karl's items/accounts at all.

It was more in line with the fact that some people said one reason to keep Risto's items just "there" is that it would work as a way to reduce supply and increase market cap (sort of like Satoshi's 1 million Bitcoins).

In response to that, Satoshi only owns 4.75% of the supply cap of Bitcoin. Also, if you factor in lost or inaccessible Bitcoins (lost via boating accidents perhaps), that is maybe another 15%-20% lost of the total supply.

So for one we are talking about a lot smaller portion "lost" in Bitcoin and we can't ignore the fact that Bitcoin has pretty much had a use case since the 10k BTC pizza days. CK has had a very minor use case and, looking at the game changelog for the past year, essentially zero use-case during its most recent history. 50% just sitting there won't cut it.  

Still, even if Karl's land, currency, and items are fully active, that doesn't mean the 50% of player accounts that aren't Risto-related will suddenly come online all at once. Going down the M "rich list," we see plenty of 0.5% - 3.0% supply cap owners that have not been seen for a very long time. So surely 10% - 20% of all currency and items in the game could just "remain" there until accessed by owners (if at all), reducing the supply float.


Part of the value we see for CK is that it did have a fair-ish distribution pattern over its lifetime (until it was heavily skewed back to Risto during the depo business).

It also is obvious that CK has one hell of a "proof of burn" valuation model. Just thinking of a few larger investors, easily 150k XMR was "lost" or "used" (depends on perspective) in the game, so around $50 million. And the total amounts could be far higher.

Finally, the original CK thread is still the 2nd most viewed thread of all time in "altcoin discussion" on BTCTalk. And it's been closed for posts for almost a year! From the names of the properties in CK to the posts on the threads, it is certainly part of the history of XMR in particular and crypto in general.


This was considered (the token part, not the "trick" part). But while this worked for something like Bitfinex, we don't think it is prudent to utilize here. For one, Bitfinex only lost a small portion of total assets and was able to "recover" those lost funds over time as people still traded there. Close to no one is using CK.

And even in light of some of the insane valuations out there on crypto projects, we think there is a long way to go from where we are ($0) to say where PepeCash was during the recent BTC surge ($100 million). We think more than raw market cap, actual in-game transactional volume is a better barometer of activity of anyway. We'd all prefer a game that has a $10 mil market cap and $1 mil in daily game volume than a $100 mil market cap and $100k in daily volume.

Back on the topic of the B1 and E1 debts, if you look at the Google Doc linked in smooth's "CK scam" thread, you'll see that there are only about 20-25 or so unique people on the lists, and there is a lot of overlap between the two lists. This doesn't compare to Bitfinex at all where EVERY user took a haircut and then received the BFX tokens. Overall, Risto's B1 and E1 depos is a really unnecessary can of worms to open (I mean what about M2 as well, I have a ton of those ), and the fairest solution is to try to grow the game's purpose and value for everyone still around, rather than a select few (and I am saying this as someone owed millions from the Risto's depos - so shooting myself in the foot here).


Didn't really want to mention this, but since you brought it up: if someone really wanted to get technical, anyone paid via Risto's depos could have their funds "clawed back" (as the assets that remain have to be shared among all users affected). So take out 50 BTC and have Risto accidentally send you another 50 BTC and he let you keep it? (And -- yes -- for those not aware, this really happened!) That technically needs to go back to the Risto settlement pot :/


Gringotts will continue to be its own entity. Coinshop used to do most of the market making in the game. But Risto cleared out a large amount of the assets and items. For what remains, they will be used to help grow and enhance the game. This will include market making (of not just Coinshop, but the other game and Risto-related accounts).

Airdrops and "giveaways" will be a big part of the initial push on CK, possibly in combination with a game currency purchase opportunity. We discussed in earlier posts a push to 1 quadrillion (1,000,000,000,000,000) in-game currency (don't worry: your % ownership will remain the same, as it will scale). We could airdrop 1 billion in-game currency units to each user across 100k users and still have plenty left over to grow the game further.


Ending thought: Syksy is awesome!

Great to see some momentum building here, really excellent!

If gringotts takes over from Coinshop as primary market maker it makes the game much more decentralised, previously with risto in control of so many things there was a lot of unavoidable perception of possible conflicts of interest, but now that's gone, and CK has a sizable war chest for development and promotion, awesome!

Will there be any airdrops?

While I agree that Gringotts market making activities will help CK become less centralized, I should mention that we don't see Gringotts ever taking over from Coinshop functions.

Market making is something every player can do, and it's one of the basic strategies players can use to make money in the game, including Game accounts controlled by admins.

Gringotts will be happy to see a Game controlled Coinshop active in Agora again when play resumes, hopefully there will be too many markets for one single entity to provide liquidity for.

Why not issue b1 & e1 debt tokens in the CK DB, let them trade @ junk bond and distressed asset prices for a few years, so the bold & brave can buy from current creditors for later profit.

Set a clause that should CK marketcap reach some hugely success level of 1 Billion USD, then CK treasury account pays out the b1 & e1 bonds @ face value as at the date the debts were incurred.

Setup option to use Karpeles Mt Gox accounting trick to pay out fiat value of debt at a time when crypto prices including M could be very high.

Just a suggestion, e1 and b1 debts from time when rpietilia was crazy, but if you want to honor them just create junk bonds and let them trade.

Hello all,

without having a particular strong opinion for or against any of the financial statements above, I'd like to pitch-in from a programming-/gamedev-level perspective on what route the game could go on - especially if it's made into a separate entity. This was just a basic oversight of concepts that I think ought to function as central nodes. Apologies that it's been ages since I did proper UML-charts or such, but I think those with programming experience can see the underlying overview (while it still is quite simple to grasp due to only modeling few of the key concepts):



A little bit about the classes:

The world map would be best suited according to my own opinion as a hexagonal grid on multiple levels; world-map level (most commonly used game style), local/city-level (kind of what you'd see in a jRPG or in old-school turn-based hex games like Panzer General or such), and then zoomed in -level (most vanity-level, mostly decorations, furniture, characters/pseudocharacters modeled).

The main division on character level would be to PCs (Player Characters) and NPCs (AI-driven player characters). Basically these combined create the base for supply and demand, while NPCs are much more abundant than PCs naturally. Still they'd belong to a family (="Guild") as well as a Faction of a sort (higher level than family, e.g. a nation; some time in future idealistically strong enough PCs and/or alliance of PC Families could create their own faction (=nation) and create their own set of rules such as who gets to pass, what road / sales tax they determine, etc etc.

The specific implementation of NPCs is a challenging one. I'd like to base them on a semi-individual level simulations, though what I was experimenting with cell automatons I don't think there could be easy way to incorporate those. As such, I'm leaning toward e.g. a random-walker based simulation per week (or distributed among a week = one year), to determine hotspots for markets, how long distances NPCs need to travel to aquire/buy food, whether they are close to a potential work place (such as a brewery, factory, farm, whatever...). Furthermore, instead of past implementations, NPCs would also require housing, thus rent/sold houses nearby hotspots of a certain kind also attract NPC renters/even potential buyers.

Events are quite vaguely defined, but they'd be the main form of actions taking place in the whole game world.

I know this is a very broad oversight and potentially unusable as it is, but I thought it'd be time for somebody to put something concrete in regards to how the gameplay emerges from the underlying mechanics. Feel free to give comments on what you think of it.

You're spot on, Risto was very likely suffering from an episode of mental illness when he created the e1 peg which led to the depo share run and debts, if he ever recovers his sanity he could rightly take legal action to absolve him from those debts on the basis that he was not mentally fit when he made those decisions. That's a good argument in favor of forking the Game though, and leaving those issues with CK legacy. If those debts are later found to be invalid it would create a hornets nest of problems paying bond holders for debts that don't exist, also, would the SEC be interested in these 'securities' ... best to leave these issues for Risto and his creditors.

CK is like a DAO where the game is owned by the players, Loaf is correct, nobody will invest new funds into a venture with this level of debt

what CK needs most to recover is a critical mass of active players, so the choice is between:

1- a fresh start, start by auctioning off game currency like gold or M as Risto did originally in 2014 to get dev funds i.e an ICO

2- write off the existing debts and fork the DB, use Risto's accounts as dev funds

Neither is a good option, 1- writes off everyone's in-game wealth, but 2- writes off only those owed b1 and e1 by Risto and some proxy accounts that might be his friends.

Anyone still following CK is certainly sitting on massively devalued in-game assets and wont invest anymore funds, or those who successfully bailed during the depo exit opportunity but still find CK interesting enough to keep watching. Getting new people requires consolidating the players already here, and that means not disadvantaging them anymore than they already have, BUT, unless someone has a great idea for generating 10 mil USD to pay off past debts, the obvious conclusion is to follow Loaf's roadmap, not because it's 'fair', but because there's no alternative other than starting over from scratch with a new game entirely..

The only other alternative to Loaf's roadmap would be trying to get some of the old players who exited with good profits when the depos were active to re-invest, but how likely is that, and at what terms? Doesn't seem likely, not unless CK is already up and running, so it's a chicken & egg problem getting those guys to re-invest.

Unless the devs Loaf has are working for free we'll need dev funds long before any chance of ever paying off 10mil of debts. If you work through the options Loaf's plan has the best chance of kickstarting the game enough to get new players, Risto's accounts are substantial, and using those assets doesn't dilute existing players, but it does get the dev ball rolling.

^^This,  CK still has great potential, but starting any reboot 10 mil USD underwater makes it almost impossible.



KH might not come back himself anytime soon, but I invested in Gringotts last year at Karl's invitation, and I'm managing the Gringotts market making account that has the ~460 bil 'M', and the remaining 'Phoenix Trust' shares which Karl setup in 2017 to assetize his large property portfolio.

Gringotts account is below
https://cryptokingdom.me/player/playerItems/1963

PhoenixTrust had a manager (hopefully still active), and PhoenixTrust assets are trading on Agora, so those real estate assets are still in play.

afaik he put all his remaining collectible items like coins in a FOC managed by Roopatra, and they also had a joint venture partnership in UnicornCorp which I don't know much about, other than it exists since the beginning of the Game almost.

So KH's economic footprint is still 100% active.

Karl told me last time we communicated in January that he's not following crypto while he concentrates on his health, but I can contact him in an emergency, and hopefully one day to distribute some returns to his family.

I'll be taking care of Gringotts market making operations as the junior partner in KH's absence.

As a community, we gave PJ a year (2015 - 2016) to actually develop a game worth playing. He didn't do that, and although he lingered on until late 2017, it's clear from the codebase that the bulk of the work he did was during that initial move from Google Docs to the website in 2015.  

We gave Risto a year (2016 - 2017) to fix the game after the pause. He didn't do that, but somehow managed to blow through tens of millions of dollars while also racking up tens of millions in debts.

The community had another year (2017 - 2018) to try to resolve things on its own. Instead, the game went from low to essentially zero activity. You can't even deposit XMR into the game anymore as https://deposit.cryptokingdomgold.com/ has returned "502 Bad Gateway" for at least the past week.

The game is taking over those accounts outlined earlier for development and marketing and not recognizing Risto's unpaid depository items. Literally no new player will join a game with around $10 million dollars in "debt" associated with around 50% of the game. Hell, if the E1/Euro is converted to BTC/XMR at the time of "withdrawal" and then brought to current market prices, the depo nonsense is even more insane.

Again, it makes zero sense to give the singer at the embassy -- burnt down due to an unattended candle left next to tens of millions of dollars of paper wallets (without any backups, ofc x3) for kindling -- over $400k as a result of the depo stuff. We saw one player who was barely active on the forums, isn't signed into IRC, etc. who has 115.5 BTC on that spreadsheet. So just casually give one person over a million dollars and another $400k? Then the game is out around a million and a half bucks and still doesn't have a game

Also, the current distribution is a mess with Risto-related accounts owning 50% of the in-game currency. Dominance was never that HIGH in the past. That has to be fixed, and we would like to see 100 - 1,000 active, new players. If Risto's stuff was locked and current players weren't diluted, then where do the new players (which the game desperately needs as #2 on its master plan, behind #1 - an actual game!) squeeze into?

Finally, to address any economic arguments that have been mentioned in the past, if we relaunch CK and try to give all old players their in-game currency, land, etc., there is still going to be a huge chunk (20%-30%, possibly more) that probably won't even bother accessing their accounts. For example, we have Hugh Mungus Karl Hungus with 10% of in-game currency, a ton of land, over 30k XMR invested in the game, and he was last seen Feb. 2018 and last posted Sept. 2017.

I'm sorry, I did not say you should shut up and not talk, of course you should try and convince people towards your point of view.

Which part do you not understand?
I'm aware it's a fork, and I have no say in it, but I'm trying to urge Loaf to reconsider this.


So why are HIS assets not being used to pay other players?  

I'm aware we currently have no alternative, but saying we should shut up and not talk to Loaf is wrong.
A game doesn't grow without a clash of ideas.
His word is going to be the last, since it is his fork, but we can still talk to him and hope he listens

There's no reason not to try raising donations for those that want to continue with CK legacy and want the Game to honor Risto's debts, but if people want to go with a fork, so be it. This isn't an either/or choice, you can support CK legacy and this fork at the same time, I don't think anyone is happy about this, but the reality is the Game is dead unless something happens now.

The Game has been stalled for 2 years now, Loaf has devs working on new code and design for the Game, I don't like what happened with Risto's depo debts, but it's his responsibility to pay, not the Game or any other players. If Loaf starts a CK fork, he calls the shots in that fork only.

We have talked about donations one time for starting the game, lots of people have pledged lots of XMR, in hundreds.
We could easily gather the money to develop the game.

In order to ensure full support of the current community, and fairness among all, I urge Loaf to distribute Ristos assets to people who he has an outstanding B1 debt with.

I ensure him, that certainly huge donations can and will be gathered among the people from ingame assets, M, XMR and BTC.
And honoring the current agreements will ensure the support of the fork among previous players of Crypto Kingdom.