Topic: CryptoKingdom Uncensored - page 10. (Read 69695 times)

We're here to make a game, but the conversation (particularly on IRC) has often times focused more on the B1/E1 items. Going to address this one more time and hopefully for the last time as we think everyone would much rather see game development than more depo-related posts (to match the tens if not hundreds of pages discussing the exact same thing here on BTCTalk).

Not going to lie, I lost my cool when talking with moneromooo on IRC yesterday as it is extremely frustrating to lose a lot of time and money (when the game was under Risto's management) and then have any efforts to try to revitalize that project be constantly met with calls of scam.

Personally, I lost money like many others buying/investing in the game and have depo claims as well. In particular, it seems people forget that first point ("many others buying/investing in the game"). We have a handful of users with large depo claims. The original CK thread still is the 2nd most viewed thread in altcoin discussion. There are so many more users that put money into the game and watched it evaporate.   

To discuss further, we have watched CK go from low activity to almost no activity. After the depo debacle, there were still new users checking out the game, we had over 50+ people on IRC, chat was more active, people (new and old) were bringing forth ideas, etc. There was potential then, and there is still potential, but it will be a much more difficult slog now.

However, focusing on the depo debts (and to be specific, the overtly negative manner in which some of the more vocal members of the community have discussed them in the last year) chased away players, new and old.

Anyone can look on this forum, prior IRC posts, etc. to see why the best way to move forward is to just start as cleanly as possible without this B1/E1 business and airdrop new (and imported) game assets to old users, and try to grow the playerbase and drive development by utilizing Risto's (as of now) insanely large percentage holdings of the game's items.

To reiterate, here is why this is being done in this fashion:

We have to verify depo items, not all users added themselves to Smooth's spreadsheet, etc.

Even if all users are 100% verfied, just paying them the tens, hundreds, and millions they are claiming represents a net outflow of funds from a dead game. No new user will join a project if they know money that they put into it will not help the project, but instead pay off old claims.

We have already seen that tens, hundreds, and millions in payment does not equal actual growth in the game. Again, we have people on the depo lists who were able to get this much out in fiat-terms from the game, were gifted the money by Risto, took advantage of his fat-fingering M/M3 orders, etc. On these same users, even if these users are still down in terms of XMR investment, they are up in fiat terms. And what have they done with their funds taken out of the game? Not support the game in anyway. Most are gone, never to be heard from again. 

If you want to claim the debts, let me tell you want anyone else would claim: the funds you got out of the game. That is called a clawback. So if you got 100 BTC out of the game, took out 50 BTC and were given 50 BTC extra by accident, were gifted 5k XMR to make a game token and never did it, or caught Risto's fat-fingering and got 5k XMR out of the game, guess what? Those funds need to be clawed back and shared with all affected parties!

And this focus on the B1/E1 debts ignores all users in the game who now own worthless game items. It doesn't matter if you have B1/E1 or just game currency (M) or even squirrel pelts! All of this is worth zero! You can't even get a few dollars worth of XMR into or out of the game as the only XMR depository (https://deposit.cryptokingdomgold.com) has been down for almost a month!

Overall, if you made some money off of Risto's misplaced generosity or by smartly playing the depo insanity, that's great! Be happy with what you have and stop trying to block anything from happening for all the other hundreds of users.

As a final point, some users are now trying to approach this from the angle of legal semantics. If you want to go at this as an armchair lawyer, I point to the above, specifically the clawback provisions. If you made money on CK during the depo time, that has to come back to the game and be shared by B1/E1 and game item holders.

Let's just put up BTC and XMR deposit addresses shall we? Expecting to see that ~1k BTC and ~100k XMR that flowed out of the game as a result of depo madness to fly back in no time!

On this point of notification, Risto is aware of his debts and I'm sure many people have contacted him in multiple formats regarding them. I know I personally emailed him multiple times, contacted him on a private BTC forum I am a member of (and got a response saying he was ill and had given up on the game). I even had a user check with him in person at the start of 2018 and got a response that he is not interested.

To conclude, if we get stuck fighting losing battles, it will take away from our focus. We're here to make decisions that work and get a game running.

Yeah, we need more input and constructive ideas now, I think a name change has benefits beyond just distancing the new Game from the past and helping to make it crystal clear this is not a continuation of CK, but I can definitely live with it.

I think the word "crypto" will end up like 'e' and 'online', so while in the late 90's www.e-carsales.com or www.onlinecarsales.com looked ok, now they look very dated. Eventually, everyone will just know and accept that value transfer in an online Game or community will involve crypto assets, so I think we could drop all mention of the word 'crypto'. In 2014 it made sense to point out the connection with crypto, but wow, we've come a long way since then, I think we could focus exclusively on the Game part, and eventually the crypto aspect just becomes 'normal'. BUT, it's not a big thing

CK Slack & IRC - Update

#cryptokingdom on Freenode IRC

https://tinyurl.com/ckslack for Slack signup

Ryver is going to paid at the end of the month and lacks many of the crypto-friendly integrations that Slack has, so may as well use Slack even in light of its 10k message limit for free accounts.

Due to confusion and the fact that CK has never had a blockchain, "fork" was probably not the appropriate word to use.

This is especially true as while data/ownership information from the old CK may be used, the site, database, game logic, etc. will be built from scratch. Even though CK was on a website, it was still very much a "manual" game, and that status carries on throughout the (very minimal, I might add) code.

The game name will remain "Crypto Kingdom" in some fashion and the game currency will be "Crypto Kingdom Gold." Don't really see a need to change the name as it is pretty obvious CK is currently a dead project and there isn't a token on any exchange to create confusion.   


Okay, probably not the best example.

I didn't mention the following the first time, but I will here as an alternative example since this has been brought up again. What I was instead going to do was mention several people on the depo list who had partial asset recovery in some way for CK. Not mentioning names, but here are four examples of those who:

- Withdrew ~50 BTC and were paid ~50 BTC extra by mistake and got to keep it

- Withdrew ~100 BTC

- Given ~5k XMR for supporting an exchange asset (which we still don't have)

- Recovered ~5k XMR due to Risto fat fingering the M3/M marketplace


This I think is the key part in bold. Risto is aware of his debts, contact has been attempted in multiple channels, multiple times (including in person). If someone can get him to pay the debts, great, I'll get in line with my clam. But let's get real, he's not coming back.


And that "proof of burn airdrop" is a decent way of expressing what is going on.

If you own property in CK now, for example, it has been the result of tens if not hundreds of thousands of XMR invested in the property markets. We will try to come up with a way for users with property to build in the new game (keeping in mind that the game had 25 planned boroughs and only about 7-8 were unlocked and present in the old CK game).


To add, we also have E1 in the "too hard" stack and claims there exceed B1 if the euros are converted to BTC back in 2017 and brought forward to the current year.

And any sort of distribution towards depo claims leaves no room for "growth" in the game. With the advancement in crypto expectations in general, I would say CK is in an even worse position today as I really doubt anyone would be willing to work on it "for free" when they can just run an ICO and make their own money.

The new CK game will be on a new domain (as, tbh, .me is a shit domain anyway). Overall, we as a community have been waiting over a year for just something (and well over two for even a functioning game). If someone has an idea beyond "pay me $1 million in Bitcoin" due to depo claims, let's hear em

I agree the name should be changed asap, but afaik the database is only being used now to establish a measure of 'proof of burn' for each CK player, and that will only be used to re-issue new game currency, land, and items for the fork DB's genesis state. I think Loaf said the game design for his version will be starting from scratch, with a hexagonal based land system, and new items etc, so I think if that does indeed happen this will be a legitimate fork.





I don't know enough about this player's situation to comment, but I agree activity is not relevant to judge the legitimacy of someone's loss. There are many people who lost a lot of money in CK, and even if this Fork version doesn't benefit everyone we should not be insensitive to the reality of other peoples lost money.






I agree, there are only two options - fork or resolve debts - but I don't think resolving debts is possible now, mainly because there isn't even a dialogue open between the parties, and Risto is not available for discussion now, so any debt resolution will be unilaterally imposed on him.

When Karl Hungus approached me to help with Gringotts I was relatively new to CK but started following closely, and Risto was still posting and Karl was offering suggestions and trying to get the two sides of the b1 debts to negotiate and was offering himself as a mediator of sorts, but nothing came of that. Now Risto is gone, and so is Karl, and there's no conversation even.

I'd say the choice now is really between doing nothing and letting CK end, restarting completely from scratch (i.e no proof of burn airdrop for past players at all), or start from scratch with a new game design but attempt some form of proof of burn airdrop on CK that's both possible to do, and gets some support.

Putting the debts in the too hard basket and using Risto's accounts for dev & community funds is both possible to do, and will get some support, but obviously not from everyone, some won't like it, BUT, as long as Loaf's version ends up a genuine Fork, I can't see a problem myself. Those who don't like it can stay with CK legacy.

Trying to resolve the b1 debts doesn't look possible now, the only option to do that would be confiscating Risto's CK assets and distributing them to b1 creditors, but without Risto involved this won't be cool with  many people, and IMO it's worse than putting the b1 debts in the too hard basket. Who has authority to do this? Some people have already made a good profit from CK, if they also hold b1 debts and would get more, some people will obviously complain that isn't fair because they haven't experienced any CK losses, and didn't feel the CK  'burn'.

Anyway, I agree that Loaf needs to take onboard how critical it is to make this a genuine Fork, and I think he does, and that will let others who don't agree with this plan retain the original CK name, website, DB, and what remain's of PJ's dev work. Then people can agree to disagree, and choose if they want to participate in Loaf's new game, or continue waiting and hoping for a resolution of the CK b1 debt situation.

FUCKING SHUT UP ALREADY FUCKING IDIOT!

Do not believe this bastard!
HE IS FULL OF SHIT! Tongue

Dont believe this fucker.

Gave me telegram: @FHCP9999 GOING BY THE NAME Francio says he is from Ecuador. Another fucking lie but Spanish just from the names he was giving me earlier (several different email addresses).

He is running a scam here using multiple accounts all linked by this one address:
https://blockchain.info/address/1Q8PWr4LLNqQcqAwMYA8QwEyhpJm9Z7qRm

Just look at all the payments made mine being the last one made.

Other accounts: Humberone, Davidxxx and alot more.

Francisco Carjavel is his name he gave out.

There are few things which appear not quite right here with CrazyLoaf's recent posts:

- "Treating Project as fork"

The name is reused. The website is reused. The database is reused. The accounts are reused. This is clearly not a fork, and the "fork" moniker is only used to try to change the rules to effect a "Game Takeover of Risto-Related Assets". If you want to fork it, fork it. But claiming it's a fork is not enough if you're just taking the existing game over.

- Dishonest representations about the debts

The fact that the game would be better off by doing something does not mean you suddenly get a moral authority to do that thing if it contravenes earlier rules or obligations.

Claiming HannaMaaria should not be owned what's owed to her because she "only sang at Risto's embassy for a few hours" is utterly irrelevant. I believe she sent a lot of her money in the game, but even if it was not true, you don't get to cancel people's claims with an opinion on whether a claim ought to be honoured.

Similarly, you don't get to claim a debt is somehow less valid if the player was not active on BCT or IRC. If activity was even a factor, you should at least consider activity in the game, and not an external place.

Therefore, there are two possible ways to go ahead: fork, or resolve the in game debts:

Forking is what Loaf claims to be doing, despite the facts pointing to not being a fork.

Resolving the debts would be better. You'd do something similar to bankruptcy proceedings, and liquidate Risto's in game holdings *after due process*. That due process would involve notification of debtor and creditors, then (assuming no objection, and I have no reason to believe there would be any) distribution of those holdings to creditors. Any debt is then cancelled. A possibility is to include some percentage of that liquidation to be paid to a game fund.

While Risto owes those people who withdrew, the game also owes risto control of those in game holdings, and blithely taking them is wrong. Such a liquidation procedure would get rid of the debt issue in a formal and morally right way, without having to resort to subterfuge.

About the "risto's debt in a fork": if liquidation is accepted by creditors, that "real life" debt disappears. If it does not happen and a fork happens instead, then the real life debt obviously does not get duplicated.

About the attempt to redirect IRC to another channel where Loaf presumably has op privileges, I have to view this in light of the above attempts and deduce this is an attempt to further portraying the fake-fork idea. ##crypto-kingdom is still around with people in it.

New IRC Channel & Waiting on Slack

We have #cryptokingdom on freenode IRC now. Yes, the old IRC chat still exists, but trying to standardize domains and chat naming as much as we can. Feel free to join!

Also, hoping to get cryptokingdom.slack.com moved over so that it can be integrated with the IRC chat.

Ryver remains up, but it looks like they are switching to paid and Slack has more preexisting apps and can hookup to IRC and the like.

I suggest doing an airdrop that requires 'claiming' to prevent losing some money supply, but make the amounts generous, and open to everyone preexisting & new players. The target could be existing crypto like BTC & ETH, but I'd focus on crypto and gaming communities first like BTCTalk, e.g. all Members and up on this forum have the option to make a claim, could be weekly/monthly - then to complete the process they have to actually register on the new Game site to receive their airdropped game currency.

I wouldn't risk giving game currency away that might never get claimed, that's a problem with airdropping on ETH or BTC. You could nominate a global % figure for the total airdrop (e.g. 25%), and then tally up all the accumulated claims just before the launch, and then calculate what each claim 'stake' was actually worth in Game currency. That would only reward people proportionally for time actually following CK from here until launch, and for people who show some level of 'activity' through a periodic claim process and see it through to launch day. If the airdrop was generous people start thinking about the history of NEM stakes. Learn from the NEM experience, they made some mistakes but basically created a committed community because people had to keep following for +18 months before they actually got their NEM, many dropped off, and those unclaimed stakes went back into dev & community funds, nothing was wasted.




Sounds great, I agree 100% !!




Ok, that settles that then. What you're proposing is a minimalist approach anyway (use Risto's accounts for dev& community funds, put b1 debts in the too hard basket and move on), and it's basically proof of burn but keeping the net effect of +2 years of gameplay, so it's fair IMO, and possible to implement without too much trouble, and achievable!

All things considered this is CK's best chance!

By airdrop, are you meaning to new or preexisting players?

We are looking at ways all item transactions can be on their own blockchain (so any fees are in CKG). Before that, we may possibly do something like an ERC20 token combined with an airdrop to ETH balances above a certain base level.

Signature campaigns, sure, as well as possibly a campaign for BTCTalk members above a certain level (to avoid as many bots as possible).

This will be a from scratch game design with new items. The suggestions for hex-based map layers as well as creating a property "proxy" so that people can build things in the new world if they had property in the old one really made it clear that a completely new game is needed.

Some items of a high enough level (or historic collectibles, think coins) will carry over, possibly with game-specific attributes. Say ART: why can't the item level be a +% modifier for "culture" attributes?


I don't think saddam can get this data for us, and even if we had it, matters are complicated by the fact that some users had multiple accounts or had non-depo-related transactions for CK. For example, the bulk of my CK buys were OTC with other CK users.

The b1 debt guys weren't more skillful, they just realized the Titanic was sinking first and got a seat in a liferaft, and didn't mind taking the easy money off the table from risto's crazy peg, even if it meant killing the Game. Can't blame them though, if someone yells 'fire' (or 'free money') it means the same thing - every man for himself!

In the history of crypto CK stands out as a monumental clusterfuck, comparable in size to 'The DAO' almost, amazing lol

Really hope it revives one day, still a good idea!

It's open to suggestion but the most simple calculation would be:

deposits - withdrawals = burn

Assuming saddam has the depository records it would be possible to calculate a net profit/loss for every player from CK legacy.

Obviously, there are some players from the Risto era who made a profit, and under that formula, they wouldn't get a 'victim' airdrop in the new Game, but would that be a problem? Probably they would like to get an airdrop too, but if they made a net profit they didn't experience any 'burn', and they're probably far less interested in Loaf's fork idea than those who lost hundreds of thousands, or even some millions.

The overall net losers from saddam's depo figures are obviously desperate to salvage anything they can, whereas someone who made an overall net profit is probably not paying much attention to CK anyway, even if they are still owed b1 debts from Risto's fractional reserve depo, and they could still get other airdrops and bounties if they want to play this new Game anyway.

There's no perfect solution to the CK problem. Those who are owed big b1 debts want those paid by any fork/reboot too, but that leaves the elephant in the room - if someone made an overall net profit from their deposit/withdrawals and is owed b1 debts, are they considered to have 'lost' from CK? They would argue they played the Game more skillfully, and those b1 debts represent lost potential winnings.  

It's clearly open to opinion, but Karl Hungus lost +30K XMR in net deposit/withdrawals, and that's a real unambiguous loss, whereas virtual losses for someone who is actually up in net deposits is very debatable IMO.

How would you define 'proof-of-burn'? It's a good suggestion coz it would be much clearer that this isn't CK restarting but a new game entirely that airdropped on CK victims, and that would be easier to market to new punters, but how do you quanitfy the burn?

An airdrop of 5% of M float now would get attention, if combined with a 5% signature bounty I think we'd see a lot more activity around CK. Existing players are carrying a lot of 'baggage' from the 2014-2017 era whatever their opinions might be on Loaf's fork - we need to dilute that negative influence by getting new people who are exclusively focused on the future and not the past.

CK legacy is sadly stuck dealing with the Risto debt issue, and it'll be impossible to get unanimous agreement on what to do. If any fork or reboot is going to work it needs to have a solid foundation of common purpose from the early adopters & founders, and I don't see that happening now, most existing players are staying silent, which makes perfect sense given the history here.

I'm going to suggest we start from scratch with game design & in-game items, and simply use the 'proof-of-burn' others have mentioned to distribute Game wealth to existing players, and then distribute remaining M and land etc from giveways , airdrops and bounties, obviously keeping a % for dev funds & further marketing etc

+1
Do an airdrop, CK community is comatose and needs a shot of adrenaline to wake up!

Sounds like fun! Blockchain is the future. Dev and admins still needed. Anyway, I am with you, and I will try to help what I can. I am here to play, been waiting too long already.

Game design isn't something I know much about really, other than what I'm looking for in CK myself which is crypto monopoly played in a medieval setting, combined with a social network and communication features, plus Agora market with ability for players to create their own assets under certain conditions, so players are free to experiment and morph the Game into an infinite number of directions with unlimited possibilities.

That's how CK was pitched to me, and it sounded pretty good then and still does now.

Many of the coolest features that might drive viral adoption are probably unknown now (we need players to create them), and what we need to do most now is just set the most basic rules & parameters, and let the Game start, and then get feedback from 'active' players.

Maybe that is naive, thinking we can restart the Game without knowing all the final game design elements first, but as long as we don't lock in too many settings that can't be changed later, I think what we need most now is something basic people can use asap, even if it's like the spreadsheet version from 2014.

I'd strongly favor an airdrop NOW, to get more stakeholders involved who have needed skills like game design etc, and offer some bounties from the dev funds risto's accounts to get people involved also. I'd also start a signature campaign, and offer some incentives to get as many of the old players as possible focused on CK again, they have the skillset and Game knowledge you need now, but most are probably jaded and disillusioned from the last 2 years, and permanently lurking for months & months. We need to offer them something to get them excited & involved.

In 2014 nearly every major XMR player was somehow involved with CK, we need to get those people BACK, and now that this fork has some $$$  'M', we probably need to open up the CK coffers to get people motivated.


So, my advice is:
1- start an airdrop & sig campaign now
2- offer bounties and prizes for things we want & need e.g design proposal competition, cherry pick the best ideas, offer multiple prizes
3- restart CK asap, even if what gets restarted is changed later, offer something people can play asap (e.g. health challenge competition for promotions like before)
3- reboot a basic economic engine (buildings, taxes, health), even if it gets changed later, create incentives for early re-adopters

Then, once new people are paying attention to CK from airdrops & sig campaigns, and old players re-focus, the social network will reboot, and that's when people will start making suggestions and offering feedback.

The gambling market in the UK is one of the greatest in the world.
The size of the UK gambling market exceeds 14 billion pounds each year. Zero Edge will market its first blockchain-based gambling sites on the UK market, shortly after the ICO is completed and all Zerocoins are circulated to the public.

Anyone interested in pitching in on the game design for the new CK?

Perhaps "Crypto Wars" is something that could develop over time (as coin communities join the game). People join a Doge or Pepe faction, etc.

In the meantime, it might be worth having some CK "lore" specific factions. This would get the roleplaying starting and also offer a blueprint if others would want to create their own factions. Some comments off Ryver from Syksy:

"[was going for] more of a Despotic Monarch -archetype (maybe Game of Thrones?), who have a claim on the heritage of CK in a future renderition, due to a claim of descending directly from the old kings (thus, some of the rhetorics in it and pseudo-Christian name) - I wanted to create a faction where e.g. slavery would be allowed and such, to create a variety of different political ruler types (Republics, Monarchies, Unions, etc)

that's 3 of 8+ factions I had in mind, each with a little twist in them... and trying to tie them together to a potential historical explanation of CK'd have evolved to that point, and where there would a variety of factions each with their own strengths and weaknesses"

In reference to comparisons to modern Western politics:

"if you think about the Conservatism - Libertarian aspect which I think dominates the US politics, that struggle is actually with entities such as the Society of Conciousness (a theocratic, conservatic faction) and technocratic entities (Council of Peace and Progress, which is basically a tech-orientated war-mongerer that profits out of conflict but doesn't get its own fingers burnt; and the Next Step, a highly experimental group that triggered a war with Society of Conciousness after crossing the man-machine barrier in a dieselpunk setting, hence the quote in Society of Counciousness -poster)"

And comparison to Dune:

"maybe some of you noticed the mention of Salt at multiple places - the war between the Free People and CTC is actually rethorics revolving around Salt, which I was going to have as a novel economical good incorporated to this new (fic-based) rendition of CK; it's a direct reference to Frank Hubert's Dune-saga, by replacing Salt by Spice... and you'll have pretty much a similar good"