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Topic: Date for 25 BTC per Block - page 9. (Read 35016 times)

donator
Activity: 2772
Merit: 1019
April 05, 2012, 04:48:12 PM
#30

I doubt Vladimir will be able to have operational mining capacity early enough for this to be relevant here.
legendary
Activity: 2940
Merit: 1333
April 04, 2012, 03:00:18 PM
#29
Here are a couple of stupid plots of block chain length against time.

This one clearly shows we're on target for a late November reward halving:


And this one shows it's definitely late December:


Hope that helps!
newbie
Activity: 56
Merit: 0
April 03, 2012, 07:56:05 PM
#28
December 21st. Just for shits and giggles.
legendary
Activity: 2506
Merit: 1010
donator
Activity: 2772
Merit: 1019
April 01, 2012, 08:37:05 AM
#26
thank you for this awesome update, Mr. Gornick.

I hope the date will be "pulled" even further to an earlier date by rising adoption / exchange rate / mining activity throughout the year Wink
legendary
Activity: 2506
Merit: 1010
April 01, 2012, 03:53:46 AM
#25
Just an update:

The hash rate increased 8.56% this last block adjustment period, which took 12.9 days instead of the targeted 14 days.
 - http://bit.ly/vFZwdF

That pulls the date earlier.

The last block on March 31st was 173,804.  So to get to 210,000 means there are 36,196 blocks remaining.  At 144 blocks/day (based on impossible situation of hash rate not rising or dropping) there are 251.36 days remaning until the block reward adjustment occurs.

That puts the date sometime on December 7th, 2012.
At this point, those betting on it being December 9th or earlier are on the winning side.  The wagers are 4X more for that than for the "later than December 9th" side:
 - http://betsofbitco.in/item?id=312

From the November BTC/USD low of $2.20 the current exchange rate at $4.85 is up 108%.  From the November difficulty low of 1,090,715 the current difficulty at 1,626,553 is up 49%.  So I suppose the difficulty still has room to rise or the price has room to drop because early estimates already just a few days into this next adjustment period show even further capacity has come online.
 - http://bitcoin.sipa.be/speed-lin-10k.png

It's still early enough that we could still see a November date, but I think the chances of a January 2013 date have now been completely eliminated barring a catastrophe.
sr. member
Activity: 454
Merit: 250
March 12, 2012, 01:12:12 PM
#24
blocks produce at the same rate with difficulty adjustments. It will vary a little because of the lag behind each adjustment so it will vary a little bit but probably not alot. The mayans did get it right....... lord help us all......

wonders wth people did not look at this before posting rants.

I guess ignorance has it's place.......
kjj
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1026
March 11, 2012, 05:31:42 PM
#23
The moves in the chart over the past days don't appear they can easily be explained as variance.  

Previously Bitcoin hadn't seen the situation where the exchange rate was stable but the but mining difficulty swung one way or another to this degree -- and not like this -- huge dip followed immediately by a huge spike.  Something's coming down the pike.

FPGAs are attractive due to lower power required -- the megahash/Joule (Mhash/J) is an order of magnitude greater than that with ATI GPUs:
 - https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining_hardware_comparison#FPGA_Devices

Maybe production of FPGAs is going to start having a significant impact on the difficulty?

That would push the date to occcur earlier than December 9th.



 - http://bitcoin.sipa.be/growth-10k.png

The red line and the green line are noise.  Even the blue line is sketchy.
legendary
Activity: 1862
Merit: 1011
Reverse engineer from time to time
March 11, 2012, 02:59:55 PM
#22
40515 blocks to go at 6 block per hour makes it 281.4 days, so on 21st of december 2012.
Fix'd that for you.
legendary
Activity: 2506
Merit: 1010
March 11, 2012, 02:36:33 PM
#21
The moves in the chart over the past days don't appear they can easily be explained as variance.  

Previously Bitcoin hadn't seen the situation where the exchange rate was stable but the but mining difficulty swung one way or another to this degree -- and not like this -- huge dip followed immediately by a huge spike.  Something's coming down the pike.

FPGAs are attractive due to lower power required -- the megahash/Joule (Mhash/J) is an order of magnitude greater than that with ATI GPUs:
 - https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining_hardware_comparison#FPGA_Devices

Maybe production of FPGAs is going to start having a significant impact on the difficulty?

That would push the date to occcur earlier than December 9th.



 - http://bitcoin.sipa.be/growth-10k.png
donator
Activity: 2772
Merit: 1019
March 09, 2012, 07:51:12 PM
#20
My guess is still after Dec 15th but who knows Smiley  Anyway we can more or less be sure it is within a few weeks before Dec 9th and a few weeks after.

Update on that calculation since we are exactly nine months from the target date on the bet:
 - http://betsofbitco.in/item?id=312

With block height of 170,390 reached, doing the math that gives us 275 days left, so still on target for December 9th as the day block 210,000 will be reached.

What is certain is that the number of bitcoins issued each day will be cut in half.  Meaning if miners are generating $36K worth of bitcoins on December 8th, then the drop occurs, then starting on December 9th they will generate $18K worth of bitcoins -- though there would be some fluctuations in price that might cause those numbers to vary but essentially it will be a sudden 50%-ish drop in revenue.

Assuming all mined coins are immediately sold on the market, there would also be a sudden drop of "supply" on the exchange markets. A sudden 50% drop of supply given constant demand would surely drive the price up quite a bit. Of course the market will react even before the fact in anticipation, driving price up, in turn making mining more profitable again even before the drop.

So my argument is that the 50% drop in mining income (measured in BTC) will not result in a 50% drop in USD-denominated revenue for this reason (higher price)

Also miners are likely to reduce the percentage of BTC they throw directly onto the markets, but hold on to them (or a part of them) in anticipation of being able to sell at a better price after the supply drop. So this is another factor that puts upward pressure on the price before the fact.

I actually think there might not be that much happening on the date. Most of the action and adjustments will be happening beforehand in anticipation, starting in late summer, maybe even earlier. I, for one, am already holding on to my bitcoins a lot harder Wink

I still have no leaning as to which outcome is more likely.  Tell me what the exchange rate will be and the number of FPGA units that will be sold over the next half year and the difficulty level at a future date becomes easier to predict.

Well, the exchange rate is part of the game, so you must include that in your set of values to predict Wink

I'm leaning towards an earlier date because I'm assuming an increasingly bullish market toward block 210000 which will result in mining power increase.

As for miners selling their hardware: I kind of doubt they will do that in the 1-2 months before the drop. They might sell now or in early summer, but after that, it's just too tempting to keep things running at least until the drop. Most rigs are probably payed off anyways and gaming is always an option Wink

legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1000
Drunk Posts
March 09, 2012, 04:32:50 PM
#19
I too want date for 25 btc

Heh.  When I first read this, I thought that you were very lonely, if you were willing to pay 25 BTC for a date.  I didn't grok your question until I read the next reply.

You mean your average date costs less than 25BTC? Cheapskate Tongue
full member
Activity: 184
Merit: 100
March 09, 2012, 04:15:41 PM
#18
I am surprised BofB allowed such a similar bet.  Spreading the action around is never good.

Sorry about the confusion guys. It was our fault and fixed. #312 is the one to bet. Let me know if you have any issues.
legendary
Activity: 2506
Merit: 1010
March 09, 2012, 02:27:08 PM
#17
My guess is still after Dec 15th but who knows Smiley  Anyway we can more or less be sure it is within a few weeks before Dec 9th and a few weeks after.

Update on that calculation since we are exactly nine months from the target date on the bet:
 - http://betsofbitco.in/item?id=312

With block height of 170,390 reached, doing the math that gives us 275 days left, so still on target for December 9th as the day block 210,000 will be reached.

What is certain is that the number of bitcoins issued each day will be cut in half.  Meaning if miners are generating $36K worth of bitcoins on December 8th, then the drop occurs, then starting on December 9th they will generate $18K worth of bitcoins -- though there would be some fluctuations in price that might cause those numbers to vary but essentially it will be a sudden 50%-ish drop in revenue.

We know today within a window of a couple weeks when that event will happen.  We also know miners who pay for electricity won't mine at a loss for very long.   We also know many miners have no other use for the GPUs.

A rational miner might consider selling off those GPUs before there is a glut on the market (though prices have dropped for used GPUs, prices currently are pretty decent -- compared to the discount other electronics see when being sold as used.)  A rational miner might also look at the emergence of FPGAs in mining combined with this 50 BTC -> 25 BTC block reward drop, see the writing on the wall, and start taking action now.

Which would cause a rational speculator (if there are any) to suspect that difficulty will not continue rising and instead will start dropping again as the result of miners shutting down, and thus the date occurring later than December 9th.

But then we have history.  When difficulty goes up, it tends to do so in bursts -- 8%, 15% or higher even.  When it drops, it does so gradually.  Which would mean even if we reach block 210,000 and the difficulty is no higher or lower than the level it is at today, we'll get there sooner than December 9th because the bursts had a bigger impact on calendar time than the drops did.

I still have no leaning as to which outcome is more likely.  Tell me what the exchange rate will be and the number of FPGA units that will be sold over the next half year and the difficulty level at a future date becomes easier to predict.
full member
Activity: 187
Merit: 100
March 09, 2012, 09:50:27 AM
#16
Let's bet on this over on

http://betsofbitco.in/item?id=313

Back your statement by money and have some excitement Smiley

-coinft

why not bet on the bet published earlier in this thread: http://betsofbitco.in/item?id=312


Yes someone was faster than me. Notice I have the following id. Bet on the first one, mine was canceled as duplicate.

-coinft
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
March 09, 2012, 08:38:00 AM
#15
I am surprised BofB allowed such a similar bet.  Spreading the action around is never good.
donator
Activity: 2772
Merit: 1019
March 09, 2012, 07:35:52 AM
#14
Let's bet on this over on

http://betsofbitco.in/item?id=313

Back your statement by money and have some excitement Smiley

-coinft

why not bet on the bet published earlier in this thread: http://betsofbitco.in/item?id=312
full member
Activity: 187
Merit: 100
March 09, 2012, 04:46:34 AM
#13
Let's bet on this over on

http://betsofbitco.in/item?id=313

Back your statement by money and have some excitement Smiley

-coinft
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
March 05, 2012, 09:13:05 AM
#12
I expect bitcoin price to increase (on average) throughout the year.  Higher price equals more miners.  A steadily increasing number of miners means that each block is found slightly faster than anticipated, and that continues for 2016 blocks before the difficulty compensates.  Except that the next 2016 blocks have the same: an increasing number of miners.

While that is true I think there are two counterpoints.

First is that price to difficulty is relatively low right now.



So while price may rise (say to $6 or even $7) I wouldn't expect to see large increases in hashing power.  We really would only be getting into more sustainable price/difficulty ratios.

The second is timing.  Yeah if BTC went to $10 tomorrow you would see a large increase in hashing power and that trend would continue for 3 or 4 difficulty intervals.  However if BTC hits $10 in say late October any new hashing power has to be thinking of the fact that price/difficulty (the only metric that matters to a smart miner) is going down by 50% in a month or two.  The close we get to the date the more of a factor that will be in NOT deploying new hashing power.  Smart miners will take a "wait and see" attitude.

My guess is we will hit the drop earlier than 9 DEC but I don't think it will be by much (maybe 5-10 days).

donator
Activity: 2772
Merit: 1019
March 05, 2012, 09:07:13 AM
#11
Here's a guess:

9th Dec assumes current rate continues.

I expect bitcoin price to increase (on average) throughout the year.  Higher price equals more miners.  A steadily increasing number of miners means that each block is found slightly faster than anticipated, and that continues for 2016 blocks before the difficulty compensates.  Except that the next 2016 blocks have the same: an increasing number of miners.


I'm thinking along the same lines, but don't think the impact will be that large. I'm guessing around Dec. 5th, placed my bet accordingly.

I agree with above post that high-electricity-cost miners will anticipate the problem and stop mining, but I think that also traders will anticipate the "drop in supply" as they will call it and that will raise the price in anticipation making mining more profitable again.

This is one example of the feedback loops in this whole shebang. It will be highly interesting to observe and it will likely take effect pretty early, like in late summer.

I think in the end, not much will change, at least not much more than usual Wink


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