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Topic: DEA Agents in Silk Road Case Face Fraud Charges - page 11. (Read 14464 times)

sr. member
Activity: 532
Merit: 250
Ad homimem attacks don't do your arguments any help.

Why do you think that ad homimem attacks don't help?  I think they help immensely - you moron.  

as to 'reasonableness'  -  was it reasonable that the government was in there searching - in part - to gain a position from which it could lob extortion attacks?  That seems somewhat unreasonable to me.  Also, to say that New York didn't get any derived information from Force4 is nonsense.  Force4 and his illegal searches developed the identity of Ulbrict.  EVERYTHING which came later - was fruit of the poisonous tree.  New York - or Baltimore both teams derived and developed evidence from a bad and illegal search which should be held unconstitutional.  You can't have a fucking pig deep in the act of abuse of color - and argue reasonable.   I call raging bullshit.  (what kind of attack is that?)
legendary
Activity: 1442
Merit: 1000
Antifragile
Huh? What are you talking about? I'm only saying these two guys (and NO ONE else) had the ability to taint the evidence and we already know they knowingly did. They did this regarding the murder for hire. Yeah, it doesn't get much worse than cops working on a case using "inside information" to extort money from a person.

Don't distort my argument or try to red herring this.

Ulbricht wasn't convicted of murder-for-hire. I imagine because of the problems with the Baltimore investigation.

You are using the word "taint the evidence," which is a legal term of art, which you are not using correctly. I stated above why it is being used incorrectly.

It's certainly bad that these officers extorted Ulbricht and others. That's why they are being prosecuted for crimes. But the fact that they committed crimes does not impugn the convictions against Ulbricht. The government's argument, and one that I find persuasive is that the Baltimore investigation was separate from the New York investigation, and no evidence used in the trial came from that Baltimore team.

Quote
Do you get paid by the post from the Fed or ?

[snip]

These kinds of ad hominem attacks don't do you any credit.

2 separate investigations but with the same people? Is the information wrong that has stated that Force was the lead investigator? He had the SR Admin password? I don't see how you can separate the two investigations.

And regarding the ad hominem, it was a real question. I found your argument quite deceptive and hence the question, Are you a paid poster? I'm not attacking your person, just questioning it.
If you want to talk about logic that is more important to our arguments, let's start with your summarizing my points into something I didn't say nor even imply. I wonder if you even read the post to come up with your conclusion in the prior post (not quoted)  I'm not sure which logical fallacy that is??? I'll bet on "Non Sequitur" - Comments or information that do not logically follow from a premise or the conclusion..

An regarding the word "taint the evidence" being used incorrectly. Fine, I might be guilty. But the point stands, those two detectives already have been accused (thoroughly so) with some heavy crimes. They "tainted" in the sense of could have "planted/distorted" the evidence (they had direct access and in some cases created it.) I mean they have already knowingly done this, the question is just how much and where and of course, did it affect the outcome of the case. My bet is probably but we'll see during the re-trial, if there is one.
full member
Activity: 207
Merit: 100
"Fruit of the poisonous tree" doesn't mean what you think it means. It's derived from the exclusionary rule of the Fourth Amendment. It generally means that one cannot use the fruit of an unconstitutional search. It does not mean that if someone does something that we think is bad, everything that flows from those things is inadmissible. So ... since this isn't a fourth amendment issue, the doctrine does not apply.


I am sorry my friend, but I think you are gonna need a few more years of law school; fancy as you may already be.

Ad homimem attacks don't do your arguments any help.

Quote
Force as part of his efforts as lead investigator DID a search.  Because he acted criminally during that search - it became an illegal and unconstitutional search.  Evidence developed from that unconstitutional search - and its derivatives must be excluded. 

Firstly: the government's position is that no evidence from the Baltimore investigation was introduced in trials. So even accepting your faulty premise, there is no evidence introduced in trial that is the "fruit" of these agents' actions.

Secondly, acting "criminally" during a search does not make it unconstitutional. The touchstone of the Fourth Amendment is "reasonableness," and the question is whether or not the search was valid under the Fourth Amendment. There were suppression hearings on the Fourth Amendment issue, and Ulbricht lost. He lost for totally different reasons--because he didn't assert a property interest in the things searched and seized. So even if somehow all these things were connected to the searches Ulbricht tried to suppress (see point one, they were not), and even if this was a Fourth Amendment violation (it was not), the search could not have been suppressed because Ulbricht did not assert a property interest in the thing searched.
sr. member
Activity: 532
Merit: 250
Oh yeah?  Haven't you ever heard about 'fruit from the poisoned tree'?  Force4 was the lead investigator.  Every bit of evidence is derived from his original efforts.  There is no evidence which does not come from the work product of a criminal whose efforts were per se adverse to Ross' position.  

How do you like them apples Legal Beagle?

The Judge won't change her mind - I agree with you on this point.  But request for retrial is an action taken against her.  No doubt she won't agree with it.  But on appeal, a different judge will decide the tree question.  

"Fruit of the poisonous tree" doesn't mean what you think it means. It's derived from the exclusionary rule of the Fourth Amendment. It generally means that one cannot use the fruit of an unconstitutional search. It does not mean that if someone does something that we think is bad, everything that flows from those things is inadmissible. So ... since this isn't a fourth amendment issue, the doctrine does not apply.


I am sorry my friend, but I think you are gonna need a few more years of law school; fancy as you may already be.

Force4 as part of his efforts as lead investigator DID a search.  Because he acted criminally during that search - it became an illegal and unconstitutional search.  Evidence developed from that unconstitutional search - and its derivatives must be excluded from the prosecution.  
full member
Activity: 207
Merit: 100
Huh? What are you talking about? I'm only saying these two guys (and NO ONE else) had the ability to taint the evidence and we already know they knowingly did. They did this regarding the murder for hire. Yeah, it doesn't get much worse than cops working on a case using "inside information" to extort money from a person.

Don't distort my argument or try to red herring this.

Ulbricht wasn't convicted of murder-for-hire. I imagine because of the problems with the Baltimore investigation.

You are using the word "taint the evidence," which is a legal term of art, which you are not using correctly. I stated above why it is being used incorrectly.

It's certainly bad that these officers extorted Ulbricht and others. That's why they are being prosecuted for crimes. But the fact that they committed crimes does not impugn the convictions against Ulbricht. The government's argument, and one that I find persuasive is that the Baltimore investigation was separate from the New York investigation, and no evidence used in the trial came from that Baltimore team.

Quote
Do you get paid by the post from the Fed or ?

[snip]

These kinds of ad hominem attacks don't do you any credit.
legendary
Activity: 1442
Merit: 1000
Antifragile
Are you basically saying that these two corrupt cops, one of which was a lead detective in the case (not just the murder for hire charge), that stole money from Ross, entrapped him for murder, blackmailed him, had access to the sys Admin account, etc. - that that has no bearing on the validity of the evidence which puts him behind bars? Are you saying that having key corrupt officials on the prosecution is a separate issue from what Ross did when their evidence/work arguably had a decent factor in his conviction? This makes no sense and I'm trying to really see your point here.

All the defense now has to work on is how these two corrupt cops had help in giving but 1 little tiny bit of false evidence. It appears they got them for damn near everything and they are deeply tied to not only the evidence, but to the actual SR site, Admin account! Had they been legit you would just have hoped they were not corrupt, but now they are. We see: what they did, the depth of what they did, the ways in what they did what they did, how the judge disallowed obvious connections/questions, etc from being admissible in court. The list goes on. This is an absolute travesty. I will not look at this situation, as disgusting as it now has become, through simplified legal jargon when every sense in most peoples bodies right now is screaming to them: "Alert, Alert, Alert something is really really wrong here."

Sometimes those within the system (any system really) can't see outside that system. They are so "in"trained in that system the craziest of things make sense to them, because it fits that "systems" way of think, and ironically enough can be disproven in a court of law (just need reasonable doubt). And right now it seems like there is much much more than reasonable doubt going on about that trial. I feel a lot of your argument is trying to use (legal) semantics to make your point valid but all it does is try to exclude people from really seeing what is right in front of them by controlling perspective.

[snip large image]

Really, it sounds like your argument boils down to: these cops did some bad things, therefore the other cops did bad things. Moreover, those bad things go towards whether or not Ulbricht was guilty and/or the credibility of witnesses who testified.

Generally, we tend to eschew this kind of guilt by association. Just because two officers on the Baltimore team were corrupt and committed crimes does snot impugn the credibility of officers on another team. Just because two officers on the Baltimore team were corrupt and committed crimes does not mean that Ulbricht did not commit the crimes he was convicted of committing.

I'm not condoning what these officers did. Nor am I suggesting that these are the best practices for law enforcement or prosecutors. But it is difficult to say, from what has been publicly disclosed, that these officers' committing crimes is exculpatory as to Ulbricht.

Huh? What are you talking about? I'm only saying these two guys (and NO ONE else) had the ability to taint the evidence and we already know they knowingly did. They did this regarding the murder for hire. Yeah, it doesn't get much worse than cops working on a case using "inside information" to extort money from a person.

Don't distort my argument or try to red herring this.

Do you get paid by the post from the Fed or ?

legendary
Activity: 3766
Merit: 1217
you cannot say there's a 0 chance. as Cryptowatch.com said USA has been capable of doing operations also on foreign soil. they could have obtained by one way or another access to mtgox server and steal/froze/seize all the BTC. that can also explain why Karpeles once said that BTC were not stolen but temporarily frozen/unavaiable.

The other Mt Gox employees have talked about the robbery and they have given the details. According to them, stealing the coins from Mt Gox offline wallets is possible only with the help of Karpeles. How can the FBI steal coins from an offline wallet, which was accessible only to Karpeles?
full member
Activity: 207
Merit: 100
I think that there must be evidence that these agents planted some or all the government's evidence that was used against Ulbricht." Given that it appears that defense made that argument under seal to the judge, and the judge rejected it, I'm guessing that there was no evidence of the sort.
That sounds like a question of fact, not of law. The judge may have erred in rejecting it.

In any case, I don't disagree with you; I was just presenting an alternative view (As you can see, I've defended your position in other posts.)-- I don't think the position I outlined is likely to go anywhere.

Well, it may be a question of fact, but that doesn't mean it goes to the jury. Federal Rules of Evidence require judges to determine whether or not evidence is rightly put before the jury. I would imagine that the government argued the FRE 403, or the rule against irrelevant evidence, should prohibit this type of evidence. I imagine they argued that the prejudicial effect would substantially outweigh the probative value of the evidence.

And sorry, I hope I haven't sound defensive and I appreciate your posts. Generally on these forums, posting any sort of reasoned legal analysis gets you shot down. I understand the impulse to defend Ulbricht: people don't like the bad press against bitcoin. But bitcoin, like fiat currency, and like any tool, can be used for things we think are good, and things we think are bad. This country has chosen to criminalize the drug trade and money laundering, and Ulbricht clearly violated those laws. That he used BTC rather than USD really is of little matter. Now some people might think that the drug trade should be criminalized at all, but that's really quite apart from all this. When people wake up and realize that everyone who uses bitcoin is good and not everyone who wants to use USD is evil, our community will great great strides.
staff
Activity: 4284
Merit: 8808
I think that there must be evidence that these agents planted some or all the government's evidence that was used against Ulbricht." Given that it appears that defense made that argument under seal to the judge, and the judge rejected it, I'm guessing that there was no evidence of the sort.
That sounds like a question of fact, not of law. The judge may have erred in rejecting it.

In any case, I don't disagree with you; I was just presenting an alternative view (As you can see, I've defended your position in other posts.)-- I don't think the position I outlined is likely to go anywhere.
staff
Activity: 4284
Merit: 8808
Correction to my post.  It turns out that it wasn't the case that MTGox did nothing to piss off Force and Bridges; it seems MTGox earned their ire by failing to respond to a shakedown request: http://imgur.com/a/ecQ5T (ah, Magicaltux's email screenshots are inlined in the post above).

(Force asks for 250 BTC as part of a 'partnership', Magicaltux doesn't respond, he sends more emails... later the send an "I told you so" email; the same day they filed for the warrant to seize MTGox's funds)
sr. member
Activity: 322
Merit: 250
lol this guys is slippery!







hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 1000
https://youtu.be/PZm8TTLR2NU
The truth is coming for all of us boys and girls, the information age is here. Soon there will be nowhere left to hide. No more shadows.
full member
Activity: 207
Merit: 100
Are you basically saying that these two corrupt cops, one of which was a lead detective in the case (not just the murder for hire charge), that stole money from Ross, entrapped him for murder, blackmailed him, had access to the sys Admin account, etc. - that that has no bearing on the validity of the evidence which puts him behind bars? Are you saying that having key corrupt officials on the prosecution is a separate issue from what Ross did when their evidence/work arguably had a decent factor in his conviction? This makes no sense and I'm trying to really see your point here.

All the defense now has to work on is how these two corrupt cops had help in giving but 1 little tiny bit of false evidence. It appears they got them for damn near everything and they are deeply tied to not only the evidence, but to the actual SR site, Admin account! Had they been legit you would just have hoped they were not corrupt, but now they are. We see: what they did, the depth of what they did, the ways in what they did what they did, how the judge disallowed obvious connections/questions, etc from being admissible in court. The list goes on. This is an absolute travesty. I will not look at this situation, as disgusting as it now has become, through simplified legal jargon when every sense in most peoples bodies right now is screaming to them: "Alert, Alert, Alert something is really really wrong here."

Sometimes those within the system (any system really) can't see outside that system. They are so "in"trained in that system the craziest of things make sense to them, because it fits that "systems" way of think, and ironically enough can be disproven in a court of law (just need reasonable doubt). And right now it seems like there is much much more than reasonable doubt going on about that trial. I feel a lot of your argument is trying to use (legal) semantics to make your point valid but all it does is try to exclude people from really seeing what is right in front of them by controlling perspective.

[snip large image]

Really, it sounds like your argument boils down to: these cops did some bad things, therefore the other cops did bad things. Moreover, those bad things go towards whether or not Ulbricht was guilty and/or the credibility of witnesses who testified.

Generally, we tend to eschew this kind of guilt by association. Just because two officers on the Baltimore team were corrupt and committed crimes does snot impugn the credibility of officers on another team. Just because two officers on the Baltimore team were corrupt and committed crimes does not mean that Ulbricht did not commit the crimes he was convicted of committing.

I'm not condoning what these officers did. Nor am I suggesting that these are the best practices for law enforcement or prosecutors. But it is difficult to say, from what has been publicly disclosed, that these officers' committing crimes is exculpatory as to Ulbricht.
sr. member
Activity: 254
Merit: 1258
If this actually goes to court or there is an official decision made on it there is no doubt that the lawyer will request a retrial and be granted, Ross just got a shot to be honest.
legendary
Activity: 1442
Merit: 1000
Antifragile
They did much more than steal some bitcoins according to the indictment. The investigators, in an effort to conceal their criminality and in bad faith did systematically conceal and destroy material evidence collected during their investigation. The investigators had administrator access to the Silk Road systems which they used to rob the silk road service and then framed the original owner of their admin account for the theft (and then, with another account, offered to conduct a "hit" against that admin to extract more money from DPR) in one of many (successful) extortion attempts they carried out over months-- spanning back long before the government had any idea who DPR might be (e.g. in April 2013 they believed it was "A.A."). Their unlawful actions were not limited to SR, e.g. Force ripped off a random user of the CoinMKT exchange to the tune of a quarter million dollars where he was moonlighting (against policy and in a conflict of interest) as their compliance officer. When Force's improper use of an administrative subpoena (to attempt to unblock his rightfully suspicious-flagged account) was reported to his  superior by Venmo (a payment processor subsidiary of Paypal) he responded by attempting to seize Venmo's accounts.

Lets put aside for a moment Force and Bridge's roles as law enforcement and read their indictment as though they were just private individuals. Considering their access, strongly established involvement (e.g. the money trail connecting _them_ to SR appears to be much stronger than the money trail connecting Ross to SR), established pattern of fraudulent and vindictive activities including framing C.G. for the theft of bitcoin; they'd make a nice direction to throw doubt at the prosecutions claims and support of Ross'  "it was someone else" argument.

Consider the counterfactual with the character portrait painted in their indictment in mind: If Force and/or Bridges had had the opportunity to take over the operation of SR (from which they could rip people off on a greater scale), would they have done so? I think the picture painted by the indictment says yes. If they had and Ross pissed them off, would they have framed him? I think the indictment says yes (or even without pissing them off: They seized MTGox's US accounts immediately after successfully getting their own funds out (to the detriment of everyone now suffering from MTGox's insolvency)). I think this is a much more powerful line of argument than "maybe magicaltux did it", at least. They destroyed evidence related to their own interactions with magicaltux (and appeared to have made a successful unlawful forfeiture against MTGox as part of their criminal activities). In the story told in the indictment, these parties had the motive, the means, and opportunity that would have permitted them to frame Ross in order to conceal their own criminality (or to protect someone else who was paying them more); and the defense was apparently prohibited from presenting this in the trial.

No doubt the prosecution did their hardest to separate out  any potentially poisoned evidence, but these parties were the states only inside eyes inside silkroad. It seems unlikely to me that any of the later evidence was derived in isolation of their input, but regardless: it appears that they'd heavily spoiled the crime scene before any of the other investigators arrived.

What this actually means in terms of the actual law and procedures in the court, but I can't imagine that it would have had no effect on the jury unless they were prohibited from hearing it, nor can I really imagine them being prohibited from hearing it if it had been anything other than law enforcement agents (e.g. if it had just been other random criminals).  But they were. I can't imagine why the defense didn't delay the trial so that more of this information could be presented.

This information has certainly made a number of strange things I observed make more sense.

Edit: Ah, I see Ross' attorney has made a statement: http://freeross.org/ulbrichts-attorneys-statement-regarding-silk-road-corruption/   Seems that I called at least part of their approach, plus apparently the state used the existence of this other prosecution to suppress other evidence from being presented.  Hopefully Dratel will now move to have whatever relevant filings or orders were made regarding this unsealed, so we can get a more objective view of how much this prejudiced the case.

See my above response regarding "poisoned" evidence.

Ultimately, your argument comes down to, "From reading this indictment, I think that there must be evidence that these agents planted some or all the government's evidence that was used against Ulbricht." Given that it appears that defense made that argument under seal to the judge, and the judge rejected it, I'm guessing that there was no evidence of the sort. Thus, this entire series of events with the agents is simply irrelevant and speculative: simply because these law enforcement officers essentially stole and embezzled money does not mean that Ross Ulbricht did not commit the crimes which a jury convicted him of doing.

Had the officers testified, then of course it comes in, because it's relevant to their personal credibility. But they did not (wisely) testify. Indeed, they may have been able to assert a privilege had they done so.

Are you basically saying that these two corrupt cops, one of which was a lead detective in the case (not just the murder for hire charge), that stole money from Ross, entrapped him for murder, blackmailed him, had access to the sys Admin account, etc. - that that has no bearing on the validity of the evidence which puts him behind bars? Are you saying that having key corrupt officials on the prosecution is a separate issue from what Ross did when their evidence/work arguably had a decent factor in his conviction? This makes no sense and I'm trying to really see your point here.

All the defense now has to work on is how these two corrupt cops had help in giving but 1 little tiny bit of false evidence. It appears they got them for damn near everything and they are deeply tied to not only the evidence, but to the actual SR site, Admin account! Had they been legit you would just have hoped they were not corrupt, but now they are. We see: what they did, the depth of what they did, the ways in what they did what they did, how the judge disallowed obvious connections/questions, etc from being admissible in court. The list goes on. This is an absolute travesty. I will not look at this situation, as disgusting as it now has become, through simplified legal jargon when every sense in most peoples bodies right now is screaming to them: "Alert, Alert, Alert something is really really wrong here."

Sometimes those within the system (any system really) can't see outside that system. They are so "in"trained in that system the craziest of things make sense to them, because it fits that "systems" way of think, and ironically enough can be disproven in a court of law (just need reasonable doubt). And right now it seems like there is much much more than reasonable doubt going on about that trial. I feel a lot of your argument is trying to use (legal) semantics to make your point valid but all it does is try to exclude people from really seeing what is right in front of them by controlling perspective.

Sorry but my subconscious just let this through.


full member
Activity: 207
Merit: 100
They did much more than steal some bitcoins according to the indictment. The investigators, in an effort to conceal their criminality and in bad faith did systematically conceal and destroy material evidence collected during their investigation. The investigators had administrator access to the Silk Road systems which they used to rob the silk road service and then framed the original owner of their admin account for the theft (and then, with another account, offered to conduct a "hit" against that admin to extract more money from DPR) in one of many (successful) extortion attempts they carried out over months-- spanning back long before the government had any idea who DPR might be (e.g. in April 2013 they believed it was "A.A."). Their unlawful actions were not limited to SR, e.g. Force ripped off a random user of the CoinMKT exchange to the tune of a quarter million dollars where he was moonlighting (against policy and in a conflict of interest) as their compliance officer. When Force's improper use of an administrative subpoena (to attempt to unblock his rightfully suspicious-flagged account) was reported to his  superior by Venmo (a payment processor subsidiary of Paypal) he responded by attempting to seize Venmo's accounts.

Lets put aside for a moment Force and Bridge's roles as law enforcement and read their indictment as though they were just private individuals. Considering their access, strongly established involvement (e.g. the money trail connecting _them_ to SR appears to be much stronger than the money trail connecting Ross to SR), established pattern of fraudulent and vindictive activities including framing C.G. for the theft of bitcoin; they'd make a nice direction to throw doubt at the prosecutions claims and support of Ross'  "it was someone else" argument.

Consider the counterfactual with the character portrait painted in their indictment in mind: If Force and/or Bridges had had the opportunity to take over the operation of SR (from which they could rip people off on a greater scale), would they have done so? I think the picture painted by the indictment says yes. If they had and Ross pissed them off, would they have framed him? I think the indictment says yes (or even without pissing them off: They seized MTGox's US accounts immediately after successfully getting their own funds out (to the detriment of everyone now suffering from MTGox's insolvency)). I think this is a much more powerful line of argument than "maybe magicaltux did it", at least. They destroyed evidence related to their own interactions with magicaltux (and appeared to have made a successful unlawful forfeiture against MTGox as part of their criminal activities). In the story told in the indictment, these parties had the motive, the means, and opportunity that would have permitted them to frame Ross in order to conceal their own criminality (or to protect someone else who was paying them more); and the defense was apparently prohibited from presenting this in the trial.

No doubt the prosecution did their hardest to separate out  any potentially poisoned evidence, but these parties were the states only inside eyes inside silkroad. It seems unlikely to me that any of the later evidence was derived in isolation of their input, but regardless: it appears that they'd heavily spoiled the crime scene before any of the other investigators arrived.

What this actually means in terms of the actual law and procedures in the court, but I can't imagine that it would have had no effect on the jury unless they were prohibited from hearing it, nor can I really imagine them being prohibited from hearing it if it had been anything other than law enforcement agents (e.g. if it had just been other random criminals).  But they were. I can't imagine why the defense didn't delay the trial so that more of this information could be presented.

This information has certainly made a number of strange things I observed make more sense.

Edit: Ah, I see Ross' attorney has made a statement: http://freeross.org/ulbrichts-attorneys-statement-regarding-silk-road-corruption/   Seems that I called at least part of their approach, plus apparently the state used the existence of this other prosecution to suppress other evidence from being presented.  Hopefully Dratel will now move to have whatever relevant filings or orders were made regarding this unsealed, so we can get a more objective view of how much this prejudiced the case.

See my above response regarding "poisoned" evidence.

Ultimately, your argument comes down to, "From reading this indictment, I think that there must be evidence that these agents planted some or all the government's evidence that was used against Ulbricht." Given that it appears that defense made that argument under seal to the judge, and the judge rejected it, I'm guessing that there was no evidence of the sort. Thus, this entire series of events with the agents is simply irrelevant and speculative: simply because these law enforcement officers essentially stole and embezzled money does not mean that Ross Ulbricht did not commit the crimes which a jury convicted him of doing.

Had the officers testified, then of course it comes in, because it's relevant to their personal credibility. But they did not (wisely) testify. Indeed, they may have been able to assert a privilege had they done so.
full member
Activity: 207
Merit: 100
Oh yeah?  Haven't you ever heard about 'fruit from the poisoned tree'?  Force4 was the lead investigator.  Every bit of evidence is derived from his original efforts.  There is no evidence which does not come from the work product of a criminal whose efforts were per se adverse to Ross' position.  

How do you like them apples Legal Beagle?

The Judge won't change her mind - I agree with you on this point.  But request for retrial is an action taken against her.  No doubt she won't agree with it.  But on appeal, a different judge will decide the tree question. 

"Fruit of the poisonous tree" doesn't mean what you think it means. It's derived from the exclusionary rule of the Fourth Amendment. It generally means that one cannot use the fruit of an unconstitutional search. It does not mean that if someone does something that we think is bad, everything that flows from those things is inadmissible. So ... since this isn't a fourth amendment issue, the doctrine does not apply. I need not belabor how badly Ulbricht's defense team screwed the pooch during the suppression hearing by denying a property interest in the server. But even that issue is irrelevant as to the admission of evidence during trial.

I also don't know what you think "per se adverse" to a position means or how you're using it. Law enforcement is always adverse to a defendant and a target.

Given that Ulbricht's defense attorneys evidently brought this up to J. Forrest and attempted to introduce this evidence, it's obvious that this entire issue was briefed under seal, and Ulbricht's defense attorneys were not able to show any connection between these alleged criminal acts by the agents and the defense that Ulbricht was planning to put on. It sounds like the judge probably thought it was irrelevant, that its probative value was substantially outweighed by its prejudicial affect. Such a decision would be reviewed on appeal for an abuse of discretion, which is an extremely deferential standard of review.
full member
Activity: 224
Merit: 100
what do you think about the possibility that we discover in the future that the Mt. Gox implosion had something to do with those agents/US gov.?

It is well known that Mark Karpeles was the one who stole all the money from Gox users. And Gox was based in Japan. There is ZERO chance of any US involvement.

you cannot say there's a 0 chance. as Cryptowatch.com said USA has been capable of doing operations also on foreign soil. they could have obtained by one way or another access to mtgox server and steal/froze/seize all the BTC. that can also explain why Karpeles once said that BTC were not stolen but temporarily frozen/unavaiable.
sr. member
Activity: 378
Merit: 250
Pre-sale - March 18
Yes, many do feel U.S. is mean and scary government and should leave everyone alone

This show how deep corruption, and if Ross is not acquitted this is proof that its all the way to the core of it.   
yui
full member
Activity: 182
Merit: 100
Yes, many do feel U.S. is mean and scary government and should leave everyone alone
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