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Topic: delete - page 9. (Read 27672 times)

hero member
Activity: 798
Merit: 500
September 19, 2014, 05:06:31 AM
This Monero Economic Workgroup aka "foundation" (?) is somewhat different in scope and direction than say the Bitcoin foundation or some of the other coin foundations.

Speaking as one of the Monero core team members, I can assure you that there will NEVER be a Monero Foundation. If anyone starts something like that we will reject it, and will encourage the community to reject it.


?
legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
September 19, 2014, 04:52:14 AM

There is/soon-will-be a separate group MEW, Monero Economy Workgroup, similar to foundation that some coins have.

Isn't that a bit arrogant. Bitcoin = "some coin"  Grin

I will not be joining any coin that has a foundation, the exception being a foundation that has the very limited role of holding the domain names (and any other assets that can't be held anonymously) for compliance with law.

This Monero Economic Workgroup aka "foundation" (?) is somewhat different in scope and direction than say the Bitcoin foundation or some of the other coin foundations.

It doesn't exist to hold on to a premine or employ the developers (but does intend to donate to development) and doesn't hold any position of authority over the project itself. Its is something more like an industry association and will serve as a mechanism for those in the user/merchant community to work together to build the economy. Of course there is no real "industry" or economy to associate or build at this point but there are certainly people who want to change that.
sr. member
Activity: 462
Merit: 250
September 19, 2014, 04:26:46 AM
if bcx won't share it..my say is attack it and see if it survives, we don't want XMR to be exploited when it is more or less than 100$ a piece, do we? besides what if somebody discovers it or learned how to do it besides bcx.


It is better to be attacked now than when the market capitalization of $10b. But if the bug is in the ring, then it is quite fundamental.
legendary
Activity: 3444
Merit: 1061
September 19, 2014, 04:06:44 AM
if bcx won't share it..my say is attack it and see if it survives, we don't want XMR to be exploited when it is more or less than 100$ a piece, do we? besides what if somebody discovers it or learned how to do it besides bcx.

but allow some time for bug hunters to find it..with bounty  Wink
legendary
Activity: 996
Merit: 1013
September 19, 2014, 04:06:36 AM
How it is implemented could possibly mean how rings intersect (my hunch) which would thus implicate all CN coins. He may be saying that the encryption of one ring is not breakable, but the correlation of multiple rings leads to a discovery of the 'x' private key in the NIZKP. I shouldn't be so lazy and should actually try to do the math to see if my hunch is correct. There are other probably other possibilities as well. I can't be sure my hunch is the correct one, as I haven't done the math (yet).

As a simple mechanic, my first instinct is to check the generation
of random bytes. Can these be tampered with?
hero member
Activity: 795
Merit: 514
September 19, 2014, 03:42:12 AM
There exist right now a very deployable, possibly lethal TW exploit that I have sandbox tested with success. But rest easy because , in all of crypto only two people have successfully deployed a true TW exploit, myself and Artforz and I said I am not going to bother XMR.

Then why not disclose it?

If you're not selling it, and only you and one other person are capable of executing it, then why not simply tell us what it is? The only reason I can possibly think of is that there is no exploit in the first place.
full member
Activity: 173
Merit: 100
September 19, 2014, 03:20:42 AM
Sorry for the deviation from the topic and my bad English.
Does this topic not just the opposite effect.
I see that there are many people willing to buy Monero and Boolbarry than people want to sell.

BCX is buying? He said he wouldn't but he didn't say his friends wouldn't. Rpietilla is doubling-down?

Messy thread. I am signing out. Can't make confirmed sense of it, unless I confirm an exploit.



I do not understand a lot of speculation, but I see two walls of purchase for Monero and Boolberry
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
September 19, 2014, 03:13:20 AM
Sorry for the deviation from the topic and my bad English.
Does this topic not just the opposite effect.
I see that there are many people willing to buy Monero and Boolbarry than people want to sell.

BCX is buying? He said he wouldn't but he didn't say his friends wouldn't. Rpietilla is doubling-down?

Messy thread. I am signing out. Can't make confirmed sense of it, unless I confirm an exploit.
full member
Activity: 173
Merit: 100
September 19, 2014, 03:12:21 AM
Sorry for the deviation from the topic and my bad English.
Does this topic not just the opposite effect.
I see that there are many people willing to buy Monero and Boolbarry than people want to sell.
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
September 19, 2014, 03:10:11 AM
If that is true, it will affect all CN coins. Since Boolberry just places some restrictions to
the set of possible anon transactions it would not be resistant.

However

2) There is no break down in the encryption but in how it is implemented.


How it is implemented could possibly mean how rings intersect (my hunch) which would thus implicate all CN coins. He may be saying that the encryption of one ring is not breakable, but the correlation of multiple rings leads to a discovery of the 'x' private key in the NIZKP. I shouldn't be so lazy and should actually try to do the math to see if my hunch is correct. There are other probably other possibilities as well. I can't be sure my hunch is the correct one, as I haven't done the math (yet).
hero member
Activity: 966
Merit: 1003
September 19, 2014, 03:05:26 AM
I would call upon you and your similarly capable friends to take it upon yourself to ALWAYS destroy a coin that is vulnerable, this includes low-hash coins, because 51% is a vulnerability that cannot be ignored. Someone has to be the police, we have police for a reason, to protect the innocent.

Every new coin will have low hash. If a "low-hash coin" takes off i.e. becomes popular, the low-hash issue goes away. Whereas a fundamental technological flaw will not.
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
September 19, 2014, 02:52:45 AM

There is/soon-will-be a separate group MEW, Monero Economy Workgroup, similar to foundation that some coins have.

Isn't that a bit arrogant. Bitcoin = "some coin"  Grin

I will not be joining any coin that has a foundation, the exception being a foundation that has the very limited role of holding the domain names (and any other assets that can't be held anonymously) for compliance with law.

I observe throughout all examples in human history all collective trust is corruption directed. The best intentions of mice and men won't change this, e.g. I was banned at least once from their Cryptocrypt forum. They could have learned a lot of information from me a lot sooner, but their top-down perspective won (unwittingly a manifestation of gestapo).

PoW solved the bottom-up consensus without trust problem (although we discussed upthread that the trend towards centralization hasn't been solved yet and if I am correct BCX will need to find a new vocation and abandon his pools). Google Paul Brody at IBM to see how fundamental this paradigm shift is.

The most useful activity those with large capital can do is to angel invest in startups which proliferate the use of crypto-currencies to hopefully drive adoption as a unit-of-account. For as long as crypto-currencies are just a pass-through mechanism (e.g. Bitpay) then we've accomplished nothing against the coming global consolidation of fiat power.

I'm refuting the notion that there exists some causal relationship between expenditure and value. That relationship is correlation in some cases, but not causation. Plenty of coins have been mined with great expenditure of resources yet are worthless now. The inverse is also true. Some coins have been mined quickly and without much expenditure, but are highly valued.

That is a very astute point. The value of a coin other than as an investor pump has been the value of a currency, which is related to the number of goods and services it can be spent on and moreover the number of people who use it as their unit-of-account. Bitcoin has done only moderate inroads on the former and failed miserably on the latter (Peter Thiel's Bitpay actively works to not make it a unit-of-account).

The only prayer of attaining unit-of-account status is to put the coin in a 100 - 1000 million spenders' hands such that both the former and latter are synergistic. Apple Pay is going to lock up 200 million within a year or so. Time is running out, but there is still the developing world, yet I see Bangladesh has threatened to jail users of crypto-currency and Ecuador is also hostile.

I've had my mind on bigger issues than just anonymity. Anonymity is personally important to me, but not to vast majority of consumers. A coins design has to factor these realities in.
legendary
Activity: 996
Merit: 1013
September 19, 2014, 02:45:31 AM
@BCX (and or AnonyMint)

Regarding #1 and #3, is the BBR code base with its different PoW and other core changes already resistant to the same exploit?

Edit: https://github.com/cryptozoidberg/boolberry




* I have found very specific exploits in CN that have not been fixed

If that is true, it will affect all CN coins. Since Boolberry just places some restrictions to
the set of possible anon transactions it would not be resistant.

However

2) There is no break down in the encryption but in how it is implemented.

legendary
Activity: 1449
Merit: 1001
September 19, 2014, 02:32:02 AM

Apparently you have- your words were attack enough- no need to actually do anything.

Sitting on XMR is a mistake because there are way too many open vectors .......



You conveniently left out the part where the lead developer "smooth" agreed with me that it is indeed full of holes and leaving any amount of value in it is risky.

If stating the truth is an attack, so be it.
~BCX~  

I didn't leave it out because I'm putting my head in the sand..just wanted to keep it short and to the point.
Of course it's risky to invest in any coin. Also Gavin states all the time that its risky to invest in bitcoin that is years ahead of xmr and most coins.
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
September 19, 2014, 02:29:47 AM
Okay sorry.
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
September 19, 2014, 02:24:56 AM
Ideally he should promise to publish the exploit after a certain time, so there is more at stake on his reputation. The entire thing is bizarre. Has created a lot of confusion and doubt for investors. Maybe that is what he is trying to accomplish. Perhaps he wants investors to be more afraid of new altcoins. In that regard, he might up to ante on the layman education new coins need to do.

There are so many ways of looking at this. Well I need to go back to work. See ya.

Edit: I see BCX and I were composing posts at the same time, I basically read his mind. Wink

Edit#2: he could also be trying to leave the altcoin space open for more competition by blowing some holes in the "arrogance" that some believe the Monero group exhibits. This may also be a way of spanking, "don't piss on the community".
legendary
Activity: 1449
Merit: 1001
September 19, 2014, 02:20:46 AM
Is it that clearly stating that I had no intention to bother XMR disappointing?

Again, I have no intentions on attacking XMR as my focus is my pools and DGC if anything.

Apparently you have- your words were attack enough- no need to actually do anything.

Sitting on XMR is a mistake because there are way too many open vectors .......


Should he instead say nothing and then when the exploit is active (assuming he isn't bluffing), no one had a chance to get out.

If you review the history, he received private messages urging him to look at "the shitcoin Monero" about 2 - 3 months ago. As he investigated he found some flaws and his initial enthusiasm in Monero changed to "I think the price will decline". He was then challenged to justify that and thus the OP of this thread.

If he is bluffing, my comment could feed the selloff. So I am torn what to post, but I do want logic to prevail here.

No- he shouldn't not say anything. But he can't say in the same breath that he isn't attacking it . I know he means actually using the flaw- but if people believe he is right then he doesn't have to actually do it- it's the same result.
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
September 19, 2014, 02:16:23 AM
Is it that clearly stating that I had no intention to bother XMR disappointing?

Again, I have no intentions on attacking XMR as my focus is my pools and DGC if anything.

Apparently you have- your words were attack enough- no need to actually do anything.

Sitting on XMR is a mistake because there are way too many open vectors .......


Should he instead say nothing and then when the exploit is active (assuming he isn't bluffing), no one had a chance to get out. But not promising to publish the exploit after some time is very suspicious.

If you review the history, he received private messages urging him to look at "the shitcoin Monero" about 2 - 3 months ago. As he investigated he found some flaws and his initial enthusiasm in Monero changed to "I think the price will decline". He was then challenged to justify that and thus the OP of this thread.

If he is bluffing, my comment could feed the selloff. So I am torn what to post, but I do want logic to prevail here.
legendary
Activity: 1449
Merit: 1001
September 19, 2014, 02:10:39 AM
Is it that clearly stating that I had no intention to bother XMR disappointing?

Again, I have no intentions on attacking XMR as my focus is my pools and DGC if anything.

Apparently you have- your words were attack enough- no need to actually do anything.

Sitting on XMR is a mistake because there are way too many open vectors .......



newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
September 19, 2014, 02:07:14 AM
BCX, most people that are interested in crypto know absolutely nothing about the underlying technology. We can read white papers and nod our heads in agreement.... feigning a sliver of understanding, then those tiny bits of knowledge are deleted from all thought almost immediately. We are fundamentally helpless to evaluate the true stability and safety of any coin we own.

And thus the battles for public opinion. And even we developers aren't 100% sure which technological innovations are superior and must wait for the market and exploits to tell us.

Once the technological innovation settles down a bit, I and others can pursue education of laymen. I enjoy that actually. I used to tutor my engineering friends in college in physics, math, etc..

Right now we are so busy actually trying to innovate, do not have sufficient time to educate and we don't have sufficient unifying understanding to educate optimally. It is more a piecemeal process at this juncture.

The reason I say this, is because it is a waste of time for the crypto community and for individual investors to bother with coins that are flawed. They should be exploited and destroyed the moment they are proven vulnerable. Coins would be much more careful about launching, there would be a cost to launching a coin that is weak, today there is no such cost and the investor is left to simply gamble.

Killing innovation too early though also has a cost. And it appears to me BCX is too busy and was asked by his confidents to make a decision on XMR (and CN) and took his investigation only as far as finding the answer he wanted.

And doesn't interest him (economically) to expend more effort on it. Of he could be bluffing for some reason such as deciding he wants to be in XMR and thus wants to buy it cheaper.

Or he had a hunch and wanted to entice someone to do his work for him.

You have articulated my belief that a coin which has its act together on making laymen knowledgeable (in a non-confrontational manner) will have an advantage.
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