Topic: Do we want to continue to allow various vendor hate in here? - page 5. (Read 17389 times)

The obvious counter-example to your claims is the PSA:

If you have ordered from ButterFly Labs and have not yet received your product, you are entitled to a refund whenever you request one (per FTC rules).
First ask ButterFly Labs for a refund, they will probably say no but you might get lucky.
If you ordered via PayPal you can file a complaint with them even if you are outside the 45 day window. Multiple customers have already gotten a refund from PayPal that was outside the 45 days.
If you ordered via Bitcoin or Bank wire, you can fill out a complaint with the FTC at  http://www.ftc.gov/complaint and they will advocate for you with ButterFly Labs to get your refund. You can also contact the office of the Kansas Attorney General and inform them that you have had your money taken with no product delivered for months, just more promises.
You can also do a paper filing with the DA here: http://da.jocogov.org/complaint-forms

There are also several threads on how to get a refund from ButterFly Labs, here are two:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/yes-you-can-get-a-refund-from-bfl-266945
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/butterfly-labs-did-everything-they-could-to-make-getting-a-refund-impossible-272585

This message has grown over time and helped a few people get refunds from BFL (who at first refused to provide them). Customers are entitled to a refund until they are shipped a product (thus creating a 'sale'), many were unaware of this. This is real.

Maybe you were not around earlier (it would explain a lot) but the "vendor haters" were in the minority before April. There was a lot of euphoria going around and back then "the 90%" had a different take on things.

There is irony here as well. It is your post that is actually an example of the bad behavior. It contains only disdain and insults for those that disagree with you. Other people can speculate as to why you are so bitter in other threads.

One sad component of haters and baiters is the self-righteousness. They see themselves as some sort of holy warriors protecting the great unwashed from evil-doers. As if they are doing any service for anyone but themselves. The real joke is that filling page after page and thread after thread with regurgitated, gibbering bile makes them look like raving lunatics. They are not saving anyone. They are not helping anyone. The only opinion anyone has about their posts is that it is useless, innane clutter and that these forums would be better without it. The imagined power that comes with claiming that "90% of people agree with what I am posting" must surely be intoxicating, but in reality, no one cares. It isn't real.

There is no one who needs their brand of "saving", there are no crusades to win other than imagined ones, and their hate makes them a loser by default.

There are certainly plenty of issues with both asics related to manufacturing and delivery. But nothing they say or do is going to affect it one way or the other, nor will it likely affect anyone else's choices. They are powerless, and at some level they know this, and that only fuels their hate. Being irrelevant really pisses some people off, and makes them even louder.

I wish I could reach out to each and every one of them and cure them. Unfortunately, I think only the passage of time can do that. Eventually every vendor will either deliver or go belly up. Then what will they have left?

well yes, hence the reason i made reference to you saying the quoted poster was 'missing the nail', then stated that it is you who is.  but that still is not comparing anything.

the performance of few of the vendors are responsible for the genesis and their subsequent input (or lack thereof) is a large part of continued fanning of the flames of the current level of "hate" in this sub-forum.  the rest, like 'hater' vs 'fanboy' stuff, is universal to virtually all online forums where there are both strong opinions and people's money at stake.  realistically there is nothing moderators can do to eliminate that until it crosses into actual threats.  

if one can't take salty language, sarcasm, their views challenged, and even insults from time to time then most online forums are not for them - this one included.

My 2x Satoshi's

1)  Lets not beat around the bush, the OP is basically stating "there are endless BFL-bashing threads and we can't legit talk hardware"  [agreed]
2)  IMO this is a symptom of allowing BFL to continue to advertise when much of the community has been swindled by them.  Having Josh Zerlan hurling insults towards victims in one thread then buying advertising to dupe unstudied users in another is causing widely distributed rage.

I think you should move this section to bitcoin/mining because its massively popular now. Thats a start

Then just create a VENDOR BASHING section lol

Done

While you do have users that are known to be associated with the companies, you also have the ones that are told "you MUST be working for them because you don't hate them".  In the OP, it is clear that the moderator is not concerned with JUST the asic company reps that get out of hand, but the people who make thread after thread just to spew hate as well as jump into any related thread to do the same.  Maybe the topic title needs rewriting, but it is clear that trolling is the problem.

The best way to look at this is to look at how trolling works.  In order for the troll personality to be successful, they need an audience.  The solution then is a simple one, remove them from their audience.  I mentioned before that a sub forum titled "Vendor Hate" or "Complaints" or something similar should be created and all threads of this type be shunted there.  Since the trolls would only have themselves as their audience for the most part, the threads would likely die from a lack of participation.  Hate posts in existing threads could be either deleted as being inappropraite ot shunted to a catch-all thread in the new sub-forum.  Since posts are merely moved and not deleted, those interested in reading them can go there and the main forum remains clutter-free.

To complete the concerns listed in the OP, 2 new sub-forums should also be created titled something like "New Ventures" and "Resolved issues".  The former would be for use by anyone with a new group buy or a new startup, etc.  The latter could be used for companies that have taken themselves out of the game.  We don't need to see 50 threads about the same people demanding refunds of the same companies, either 1 thread should be enough or they should have their own place to reside, though this could be solved by simply locking threads with a link to the appropriate thread.

I did an in depth analysis of this.  https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/my-analysis-of-the-claim-bfl-is-violating-law-by-not-registering-with-fcc-rules-254750

my analysis determined that this is not as clear cut as what you are claiming here.

I know this would help in the long run. The problem is 90% preorder related and maybe 10% actual issues. Most people where mad before anything untoward happened. Well that isn't entirely true but.

It's about the cash. If people would stop paying in full for preorders the issues would stop or at least drop to a trickle. I get the idea be first in line and make a (metaphorical) killing. The down side is that the companies making hardware will not likely create anything without enough interest. They view interest as people paying upfront.

Lets say bitcoin took a lesson from any other preorder. I want to buy a new super mining unit. The company I "Preorder" from needs something realistically to hold my spot in line. When preordering you would put up a deposit.  Next lets say the amount of the deposit is 5% (easy to figure in your head). So I want to order the new monarch 4K I would need a 200$ deposit. That holds my spot in line. Now when the unit is done I would owe the balance or 3800$. Would I have 3800$ in 3, 6, 9 or 12 months yes.

The manufacturers have said they need fully paid units to be able to ship as soon as the units are produced. This has not seemed to have been an issue. Right now there are lines for current production units. If an earlier order was short would the manufacturers be out money in a meaningful way? I really don't think so. They would ship to the next paid in full order. This would create a modicum of additional paperwork for the manufacturer but likely would limit their backlash when something goes wrong.

The issue isn't that the problem itself couldn't be fixed or greatly reduced. The issue is that people don't like feeling cheated, lied to or just taken for a ride. Full payment preorders are only in the manufacturers interest. Very little of it would ever be in the buyers interest.

I agree (by default since this system will likely never be used in bitcoin) that the multiple custom hardware child boards is better then the current single board where everything gets lost in the fallout from current business practices and people posting the same issues frequently.

EDIT: I am not saying that people wouldn't get cheated ever using this system. I am saying that it leaves both parties with skin in the game. A failure would still cost the purchaser money. I just doubt that people would whine so much if their 1200$ upgrade (so paying half cash) had a hold of 30$ on it for a year. Wow now that you are close to shipping my order I pay the 570$ remainder. Of course a scam could just make their cost higher making the deposit larger monetarily.

EDIT 2: Whine might be a little harsh. People are out real money. Still there has been hate since the first full price preorder. It will continue until the deadline is actually met or people stop paying 100% upfront.  Vote with your wallets people.

Correct.

And I clearly COMMUNICATED with my customers when we shut things down and gave refunds and acted in a professional manner that it was OUR fault not Avalons. People appreciated the way we handled our refunds and there was not nearly the same level of problems that is the focus of BFL and Avalon right now. So not sure where I fit on your scale of this problem but people were disappointed with us but not angry and shouting at us in the forums. Which is the problem we are trying solve. Also to our credit we held the BTC in cold storage and didn't use any of it for production so that refunds were always possible given ANY failures.

This issue is the VITRIOL not the errors and lack of education correct? So you are not really helping solve the problem pointing out we lack the business acumen required.  There has to be consequences for those overtly being deceptive that to me is an issue more than the my personal stupidity or that of the other DIYers out there but as I said "I agree with you we are part of the problem", however, no where near the root cause of it.

I would also note that Zefir has handled his issues with Avalon very professionally which should be the model we need moving forward too bad that two companies Bitsyncom (Avalon) and BFL can't do the same and I think that is primarily WHY we have problems but what are the solutions? So even though we may have caused issues the results have been minimal. Where things get out of hand are BFL, AVALON attempting to lay blame on the community for their calls for answers. The majority of these blowouts are caused primarily with the lack of ethical behavior or ethical business standards of a very few people and companies. I have called for a subforum that is based on standards not on false pretense and vaporware or on broken promises.

So given that education alone is not going to solve this we need alternatives so what is your suggestion? Pointing a finger at the buyers and shouting caveat emptor is a cop out if you ask me given the lack of any standards for posting these forums in terms of product claims and there has been some clear FRAUD by individuals. More has to be done.

Learn the basics of finance and the import/export business, e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_of_credit

The above personally pertains to people like you, zefir and the other "group buy leaders". It was your (plural your) ineptnes that practically created this problem.

That's actually not a bad idea...

We really should be getting rid of those that constantly argue/troll/complain about it. But there is way too many now. There is, however, a small handful of users on this forum that work for the said companies. If they were banned, this would prevent them from fighting with the disgruntled. Eventually, it would go something like this:

Disgruntled User #1: "I haven't gotten my order yet / I want a refund / This company is scamming / etc..."
*no employees to argue*
Disgruntled User #2: "Yeah, we know. Welcome to the club. Now tell us something we haven't already heard."
*end of thread*

With the users working for the company still around, it goes a little something like this:
Disgruntled User #1: "I haven't gotten my order yet / I want a refund / This company is scamming / etc..."
ASIC Company Employee #1: "You have to wait a little longer, we are having issues / Please email company with your refund request / No, we aren't scamming. We have proof! / etc..."
Disgruntled User #1: "I think you are lying"
Disgruntled User #2: "You're a dick"
Disgruntled User #3: "F**k this! Blah blah company is better"
ASIC Company Employee #1: "No it's not! We are the better company!"
*inevitable shit posting for 99+ pages*
*new threads about same subject are made*
Disgruntled User #2: "OMG! Did you hear what ASIC Company Employee said over at blank thread? Well I thought I'd start this thread so we can bitch about it even moar!"


This is just an idea. I personally don't like it. But the trolling/aruging won't stop until these ASIC employees stop throwing fuel on the flame. Maybe this, combined with warning and temp banning those that don't contribute would work. Delete their post and warn them a few times. Then ban them for a week or so. If they come back and do the same thing, ban them for a month, three months, etc. Would require a lot of moderating though.

Ok we all get that...

What are the solutions?

Any "vendor hate" here is well deserved. bASIC fucked up. BFL fucked up. Avalon fucked up. Intentional or not, they fucked up big time. They deserve all the hate they're getting. You want to eliminate the hate? Eliminate the vendors that have fucked up. Give them 3 strikes if you feel generous. Miss 3 promises/dates/specs/etc. and you're banned from participating in this forum.

+1

I don't understand the OP.

Why is there not the a thread asking the reverse?

" Do we want to continue to allow various *customer* hate in here? "

" Do we want to continue to allow various *SCAMS* in here? "

I have no problem with flaming war but there should be a dedicated forum. Leave the technical hardware geek forum alone.  

[POLL] Should Butterfly Labs (BFL) get a Scammer tag?
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/poll-should-butterfly-labs-bfl-get-a-scammer-tag-155730
796 people polled said yes. 225 said no.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/incoming-avalon-news-892013-269950
1800+ replies to Avalon's failure to deliver the chips in a timely fashion.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/swedish-asic-miner-company-kncminercom-170332
7800+ replies to a newly announced start up that has not yet delivered a product.

Is it just 4 or 5 people?

BFL and Avalon are the model right now for Bitcoin hardware vendors. Lack of transparency. Lack of delivery. Lack of recourse.
Should we be worried because a few opaque ASIC vendors are the only source for the security of the blockchain?

Solutions?

Any?

Conclusions?

Any?

No need to overanalyze the roots of the problem they are clear. Failure to meet promises from "custom hardware" fabricators. Can we focus on the solutions to the vitriol that is the result rather than debating the reasons it propagates?

Hate is not a feeling that develops in a short time. Its not a dislike, or a preference or even an opinion. Its a force consumed by rage and in most cases the person feeling hateful has no other recourse.


If someone raped your sister... there is no there recourse .. you go straight to rage then to hate .. in most cases you do not collect 200, you go directly to hate!

If someone breaks in your home, puts a gun to the forehead of one of your loved ones.. there is no other road to take, ( Rage --->>> Hate! )


If someone robs you after you have just cashed your paycheck and you are left with nothing, cant feed your family, pay for a roof over your head..

You go directly to -------> YOU GUESSED IT RAGE/HATE!!



That said it looks like to me there are a lot of people/vendors who are using this forum to prey on people.

Thats said the very first order of things should be to make this forum neutral.

Currently the forum is advertizing ads for persons or vendors that have induced RAGE/HATE in most if not all their customers.

The customer or miners have no other recourse other than rage and hate!


Imagine if you went to the police station and found the guy that put a gun to one of your family members heads..

Imagine if you found him having drinks with the cops and laughing, and giving each other high fives!


Thats what it LOOKS LIKE when people see the ads here.

Hey that's the guy who robbed me and my family and you guys are giving him high fives and having drinks!!

Let me tell you.. that paints a portrait of this forum that's not exactly a Picasso! Considering its one of the largest places of discussion for bitcoin its not exactly doing wonders for the bitcoin community.

 
Sorry to be so critical. Its just the way i feel..   I think the openness of these forums is one of its greatest assets but at the same time i think there is somewhat of an underlying issue when it comes to integrity.

Besides taking a neutral roll,
 
I think a good start would be single threads for Asic vendors. Some of the vendors are starting a bunch of threads, maybe to deflect away some info being brought to light in one thread. Also a sub forum/thread for each vendor thread where people can talk about gripes, issues and what not so as to leave the main thread for development talk. The biggest thing would be to have a flagging system of sorts. We cant have vendors ignoring customers who have sent in thousands. Some people are putting up their tickets and order numbers and getting absolutely zero response from vendors. Legit or not this cant go on..


Now imagine sending in thousands if not tens of thousands and not getting a simple receipt or order confirmation and being ignored only to have these ads blasted in your face every other page by the very same vendors who have ripped you off! Its a direct spit to the face ..

Its a recipe for inducing rage/hate..



Im not sure my single vendor thread idea is worthwhile but what i am sure of is the neutrality of these here forums.

With all due respect!
Ya cant be part of the problem and be the solution at the same time!

 

It was in reference to my missing the nail a few posts back.  Your nail and mine were on different subjects, thus we were talking apples and oranges.  

Exactly, if we can communicate both successes and failures without embellishment, this sub-forum would help a lot of people.

Not saying it will happen, because I really doubt it will come to that. Bitcoin is fueled by drama, after all. lol
It's just that the "complaints" get old, if you know what I mean. How many times do you need to say something to make it true? Oh, wait...

EDIT:
You described the problem oh so well, in that other thread.
Bitcoin psyops at its best LMAO