Topic: Economic Devastation - page 104. (Read 504776 times)

iamback you make a case for why the system presented by l3552 will have difficulties scaling. However, we need to ask ourselves does it need to scale to accomplish its intended goals. My thinking is that it may not. The intended target of such a labor credit system is not the Knowledge age workers such as yourself but those who have been left behind. Knowledge workers as you rightly point out will minimize their use of such a local system as it is more efficient for them to participate in larger and lucrative worldwide networks.

However a labor credit system (essentially a technologically enhanced barter) is potentially beneficial for the poor, the lower middle class, and those who have been induced to malinvest in their training due to our current labor market distortions. Many of these individuals simply do not have the skills needed to participate in a budding knowledge age as they have become entraped by false market signals produced by debt.

Often low income individuals currently receive fixed government subsidies. To supplement these they often they work under the table for cash because formal employment means losing benefits. As we transition to centralized electronic fiat and cash is phased out these individuals will increasingly be forced out of the labor market entirely becoming ever more enmeshed in a web of government dependence. The poor will increasingly be unable to work formally or informally.

The resulting free time creates an economic nitch for the discussed barter system. Furthermore, such a system is educational and would help people become aware of their situation and the root cause of their suffering. Individuals who have malinvested their lives due to debt bubbles are likely to never recover economically, however, they may be able to insure their children do not suffer the same fate.

A rapid and smooth transition to a knowledge age requires us to try and find solutions for these people. If you simply say that they are "obsolete" and must go the way of the bacteria in the Petri dish you are essentially throwing the game because such a scenario guarantees a dark age, massive violence, and social unrest that will set us all back a very long time. The decades long hatred of the English and violence in Ireland following the potato famine is a good example of where this line of hard logic takes us.

Social capital is hard to quantify but there is little doubt that it important and that it is declining. In pretty much every modern country all the forms of in-person social intercourse are in decline. These are real declines in interactions that educate, and enrich our lives and are not adequately substituted by online exchange or knowledge age activities. I suspect even knowledge age workers, would be willing to participate a little in a vibrant labor credit/barter economy despite its relative inefficiency if it helped to enmesh them in a vibrant and fulfilling local web of personal interactions.  

Overall as I said upthread I view the proposal of l3552 as synergistic rather then competitive with your efforts.

PS. It is clear from your most recent messages that time is a commodity you do not have in abundance right now. I will take no offence if you lack the time to reply to my points above.

The opening post of this thread quotes me as follows, wherein I explained that the delusion that you promulgate is actually the cause of what you seek to prevent!  


http://www.coolpage.com/commentary/economic/shelby/Understand%20Everything%20Fundamentally.html


I am sorry but greed is not the problem.

The problem is mathematical, natural, and it can't be terminated. The cyclical swing between public and private money will persist forever.

My job today is to make sure we have private money in a digital age.

Now please STFU! This discussion is becoming redundant. If you persist, I will bow out of the noise.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcvjoWOwnn4

Your fantasy is not how political science actually functions.

http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=984


Damn man, haven't you learned by now that the power-law distribution of wealth and the fact that the majority are always sheep are inexorable facts of nature. You can't change them.

The masses will always be eager to be lead.

The only way to remove the power of the stupid sheep to destroy themselves, is as  it has always been—anonymous cash and black markets.

Up until recently gold and other cash forms were anonymous and a release valve against cyclical collectivized political failure.

Now the technology has changed to digitally tracked money, and so we have to create anonymous cash again.

Duh!

You do missed some points, iamback, but I thank you for your renewed try. I gonna explain using the same mental schemes of yours so that less noise is present and you met the point.

The proposition is decentralized, non-anonymous ledger for credit trading, e.g. a haircut for a book; or an hour of baby sitting for mowing 20m² of grass this weekend; or teaching mandarin every friday for 50 weeks to the holder for a new kitchen; or play at a party this saturday to the dealer(special endorsement) for 1000 liters of drinking water, insured by Dharavi Music Reputation Club. Also, users are free to exchange by group.

The assertion is that there are plenty incentives for using this system.

1) in terms of behavior selection and group survival: thieves, liars, lazy and inefficient people gonna be rapidly determined as dead weight and dropped from reputation groups and by users that can trade most sophisticated goods, also peer pressure will act locally and non-locally in a way that they mend themselves, lessening the cost of free-riding/laziness/dishonesty. This of course, is one of your main misunderstandings. This behavior selection would escalate by the club good nature of life.

2) in terms of community resilience: preserving reputation(of people and groups) by decentralized ledger leads to a minimal economic order, protecting communities and the common man on their economical choices; If almost every smartphone is part ledger, there is no way to persecute the system and as CoinCube noted "they will survive not by being hidden but by being small, hard to quantify, and unpopular to quash. Variant systems can exist in different local communities and one system could even be shut down entirely if enough external pressure was applied only to pop right back up (without much loss) as soon as the pressure abated."

3) in terms of strengthen: it was already tested hundreds of times across the globe, being a success or a total failure, that local currency always drives up local awareness and local self esteem, removing or lessening the stones repressing poor people demand and creating credit from the only place it should come from.

4) in terms of avoiding the "psychological nature" of money and its developments on human psyche and organization: money is the abstraction of human value. It is the projection of awareness into something in a way that awareness can be converted trough its projection into the awareness of greater goods. When money is a commoditie it works only alienation because it neglects the qualitative differentiation of human awareness. By doing so, it forces common good people to give real value to money, creating an idol out of paper at their cost. The value of money is the value alienated from these people forced to use it not as a mere projection but the value in itself. By depriving trading from the qualitative differentiation of human awareness you trow it on desires and though objects, that develops on and on until there is no dirty money and no essence is left. A central bank that inflates fiat money is sucking awareness out of the people until complete alienation. That consumer and sovereign debt rapid expands on this and political capability sinks is just a development.

5) in terms of public defense: today all legal taxation pass by commoditie reasoning in a way that even commercial bartering is taxed based on public or private income evaluation. To go against this is to violate privacy and non-confiscatory principle. So, the low income communities have little or no money and their majority don't even have bank accounts, in this sense, there is no way to tax their tradings. In the most perverted scenario the violence monopolist would have to confiscate huge amounts of goods without having any use for them and face political suicide. If it is not clear enough to you give it time to sink: The blood of the violence monopolist is alienated awareness, in a system without alienation of qualitative differentiation of human awareness there is no space to such a group. THE MAIN DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ECONOMICAL AND POLITICAL CHOICE IS COMMODITIZATION OF HUMAN AWARENESS.

6) in terms of escalation: nothing prohibits that social community bonds become economical ones and entire cities and states start to form even more sophisticated groups trading awareness of even greater goods, squeezing out commoditization bottom-up.

7) in terms of lasting goods: the pressure for lasting tradable goods would purge planned obsolescence and low quality products.

As I said before and the understanding of it is not a matter of intellectual capacity, "the solution the world depends on is exactly the one you most need". Qualitative differentiation of human awareness is the only value that ever existed.

Look this system by the prism of reputation as a non-rival currency in a way that every peer and group value is linked and measured by the qualitative differentiation get from it reviewing and being reviewed weighed by its trades. You gonna have more chance on understanding, besides this is allegory.

---------------------------- Original Message ----------------------------
Subject: Mar 20: Asia is rapidly adopting automation (the West is falling back to "undeveloped")
From:    iamback
Date:    Thu, March 19, 2015 1:48 pm
To:      "Armstrong Economics" <[email protected]>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


Armstrong is still thinking I am a simpleton and he thinks I lack experience...whereas I will demonstrate below that Armstrong is the myopic dinosaur baby boomer....

http://armstrongeconomics.com/2015/03/19/evolutionary-process-of-labor/



Perhaps because I use a webmail SMTP mail server so that my email originates from the USA, Armstrong doesn't realize that I (a USA citizen) have resided in the Philippines (where I currently am) on and off since 1991 (first arrived just after Mt. Pinatubo had erupted). I wrote my most famous and popular software (thus far) CoolPage in 1998 from a Nipa Hut in a squatter community where with 1 human per square meter population density and a complete lack of hygiene such as no toilets nor piped in water. I wrote CoolPage while sustaining weekly bouts of Giardia and dysentry, along with a 100-115 dB Karaoke blasting from my neighbors 18 x 7. I have traveled in Mexico, Guatemala (1993), Colombia (2001), many of the states of the USA (born and raised in New Orleans & Baton Rouge in poverty wherein my sister and I were the only white kids in the school), Philippines, and Australia (1999). I've carried logs on my head over the mountains and valleys with the natives deep in the jungles of Mindanao. I have a small percentage of Cherokee native American indian blood (my grandmother was brownish skin and her great grandmother was dark skinned).




In my prior post, I provided a footnote on 3D printed construction of houses which China is leading. I am here in Asia and despite my age approaching 50 this June, I interact with the youth (have a baby face, can attract younger females, still interested in fun activities, and still athletic enough to run full speed in sports with the 20-somethings).

Armstrong is missing a very important point—Asia is predominantly youth. The Philippines was the SMS capital of the world long before Twitter was created! I was here and Friendster (the precursor to Facebook, and arguably Friendster was an offshoot in 2001 of my CoolPage success and via the Homepage.com idea and license of the CoolPage software) was dominated by filipinos, not Westerners!

The filipinos have recently designed their own supercar.

In addition to the very low rate of government spending (and cost of regulation) as a percent of GDP in Asia as compared to the West, the other reason Asia will accelerate past the West is because Asia is young and the youth here don't even remember a world without mobile phones and internet! Thus Asia is ready to adopt the Knowledge Age quickly, because they are young and don't have a bankrupt government (too many constituent liabilities in the West) that will stand in the way like the NSA and Homeland Security are destroying high tech in the USA. In fact, I am predicting New Zealand to be the next Silicon valley, because of KimDotCom's initiative and political success and because in the new era of virtual collaboration then the best programmers (like myself) will choose to live and work in paradise (have you seen photos of New Zealand?)!

Just look at the cities in Asia and Dubai as compared to the cities in the West. The former have radical new high-tech architecture, and latter look like they are stuck in the 1960s.

Japan & Brazil:


USA:


Indeed it is true that many people will not be able to adapt to the requirements for full and most gainful work in the fledgling Knowledge Age, and this will be most egregious amongst the baby boomers in the West! A confluence of factors is hitting the demise of the West and it will simply fall into the abyss, there is no possible solution (other than immigrating Asia to the West and restructuring all the constituent liabilities).


It is true that the entire economy won't be automated by 2033. Oxford University's research projects 47% of existing jobs as of 2013 would be replaced with automation within 20 years.

But the salient point is that the sectors of the economy that are not automated will be 3 to 4 orders-of-magnitude less profitable and productive. Thus, those undeveloped areas (e.g. the currently "developed" western nations) will fall into the abyss with the one-world reserve currency of debt financing and socialism (I demonstrated in recent post these evils are symbiotic and sleep together).

So fuck your one-world, restructuring bullshit. It ain't the solution nor the real future. That top-down crap is for managing the slaves. The future will grass-roots break free from that.

Sure I will support your "Solutions" as a way to mitigate a Dark Age, but I doubt you will get traction. It will be the same as every other attempt you tried such as reforming taxation in the USA (when you debated Steve Forbes) and when you tried to advise them not to create the Euro without merging the national debts. You will pull your hair out in frustration with the MOR-ASS in the West. Instead I will move forward to the bottom-up future of the Knowledge Age!

I know which of these will be more effective and move faster.


http://armstrongeconomics.com/2015/03/19/jumping-to-conclusions/

---------------------------- Original Message ----------------------------
Subject: Mar 20: industrialism required Fascism (reputation & bartering still doesn't scale in the Knowledge Age)
From:    iamback
Date:    Thu, March 19, 2015 12:07 pm
To:      "Armstrong Economics" <[email protected]>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


First let me summarize my understanding of l3552's proposal, to make sure I haven't missed his point.

l3552 proposes to have a decentralized, non-anonymous ledger for barter trading labor-in-kind, e.g. an hour of baby sitting for an hour of baby sitting. I suppose he also proposes that users are free to exchange ledger credits across kinds, e.g. if a pair of users are willing to trade 2 hours of baby sitting for one vehicle oil change. He asserts that the incentive for using this system versus fungible money, is the reputation in the community for helping the economy grow and avoiding the fungible money which the banksters can manipulate through the aggregation of collective power that widespread fungibility enables and requires. In other words, widespread fungible money is a power vacuum and who ever can get their hands on the levers of its debasement and fractional reserve lending, can aggregate power over community and good.

In his latest post, l3552 alludes to my concept that the Industrial Age required fungible money because production required aggregation of large fixed capital investment for factories, wherein the engineering component of the investment was an insignificant economic factor. These banksters and industrialists became Fascists out of necessity (<--- click the links to understand more deeply --->), because fungible money inherently drives the risky, bankrupt paradigm of fractional reserve banking and socialism. When a capitalist makes an investment in a factory with a NAV lifespan of decades, he needs to be sure that risky paradigm won't destroy his investment. (btw, this is also a reason that sometimes capitalism gets associated with Fascism, but people need to remember that capital is not just stored money, it is any productive capacity, e.g. knowledge is capital, social skills is capital, etc.)

Whereas, the Knowledge Age is rising to bring production economics back to the individual and l3552 is proposing to eliminate the power vacuum by making the aggregation of representations of capital non-fungible (l3552 refers to fungible money as "commodization").

For example, in theory Knowledge Age workers are not most incentivized to store money, rather instead to store knowledge; thus they want to promote knowledge trading. For example, a programmer is most juiced about finding some new awesome code to integrate with his own, e.g. I started programming for Android and Scala because these are cutting edge moving technology and society forward faster. This is why I had proposed back in 2012 on my Copute.com computer language development website site (btw I need to renew this domain) that programmers could trade LOC (lines of code) as barter mechanism, but fungible within their desired target market.

There are some similarities between l3552's proposal and Catherine Austin Fitts' (solari.com) proposal for doing finance on a local community level.

The reason l3552's (and Fitts') proposal won't work is the analogous visualized criticism I made upthread wherein I explained that efficiency trumps inefficiency. Why would someone dig canals with spoons when they can work for an hour at minimum wage, purchase 4 gallons of gas, then do the equivalent of 2000 man-hours of hard labor with a combustion engine. Moreover how could someone who egregiously wastes his time be more productive and significant in the economy than someone who doesn't.

So the problem with barter systems is they are inefficient, and the one thing Knowledge Age workers detest, it is inefficiency. The entire reason the Knowledge Age trumps the Industrial Age is because efficiency wins in nature. When ideas can be produced closer to their source of inspiration (e.g. 3D printing), then granularly matched production to the granular (not one-size-fits-all mass production) market demand accelerates faster. You want a custom designed pre-fab house[1] or car[2] completed tomorrow? Okay 3D printing and we don't need to build a factory first.

http://armstrongeconomics.com/2015/03/19/evolutionary-process-of-labor/


P.S. lately I don't have an hour to put into writing each of my posts carefully as I did the above one. Sorry I am working 18 hours daily.


[1] http://www.3ders.org/articles/20150118-winsun-builds-world-first-3d-printed-villa-and-tallest-3d-printed-building-in-china.html

[2] https://localmotors.com/3d-printed-car/

While thinking take the following in consideration.

http://datatopics.worldbank.org/financialinclusion/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of_mobile_phones_in_use

Imagine such a tool working on the BRICS, defending the chinese man from communism, getting a way to lowers and untouchable indians to trade services and education...

l3552 I like your idea. It is an alternative and ultimately synergistic approach. We live in an era where the rule of the violence monopolist aka government is growing increasingly tyrannical. The fundamental challenge is how to trade  without using the approved paper while also avoiding the increasingly dangerous whip.

iamback has proposed anonymous distributed cryptocurrency as a method for allowing individuals to connect and trade
across communities. The whip is avoided via cryptography and anonymity. It is certain that such a solution will eventually be declared illegal. It will be demonized and attacked technically while approved paper equivalents (centralized electronic currency) will be held up as alternatives. Its long term survival will depend on how well it weathers these attacks.

You are proposing small non-anonymous local systems that use reputation to allow individuals to connect and trade within a community. This will also likely be declared illegal. They will survive not by being hidden but by being small, hard to quantify, and unpopular to quash. Variant systems can exist in different local communities and one system could even be shut down entirely if enough external pressure was applied only to pop right back up (without much loss) as soon as the pressure abated.

Ultimately I see these as compatible and even synergistic approaches. I agree with your critiques of anonymity. However, for trade across distant communities without using "approved paper" it is probably impossible to avoid. Within local communities, however, I agree it can and probably should be avoided. I will need to give it some more thought but on initial inspection I believe your idea when applied on a small local level has significant merit.

We are all family in potency, aren't we? If not we are probably wrong willing to strengthen bonds and deliver Pareto efficiency tools to everybody else, heh.

Jokes aside, my scale isn't ambitious. I defended earlier that the main focus for such a tool is community economics, removing or lessening the stones repressing poor people demands and defending them from future economic devastation. It would valorize and advertize their skills and social bonds. It would free then from low credit, economically and on their head(self-steam).

The point is that today far more people have a smartphone and need for such a tool than a bank account and once communities got in touch and start to strengthen their bonds sharing reputations, main insurance nodes, this would spread like fire.


Although I have to capitulate with you, it is not totally out of equation.

First as you reward transactions on system there is no clear way to differentiate a private relationship like you giving me English lessons freely, from you doing the same out for personal gain.

Second, after the remove of commoditization from the system there is no efficient way to determine the betterment provoked by the relationship.

Third, as these low income communities have little or no use of the violence monopolist papers it would have to go further and violate principles of privacy and non-confiscation, against stronger souls and strengthened groups that start to see who are the people that profit from their destruction.

Forth, once the knowledge age kicks in and mass inflation shows up the above mentioned gonna climb up society squeezing out the devil.

It is a struggle to find loneliness in the Philippines. It took me a decade just to figure out how to have some peace and quiet and a little bit of privacy.

Intellectual peers are rare. Up here in the stratosphere the pickings getting thinner and the synergies even rarer. I count CoinCube as one of my friends. We aren't technological peers (yet, although he already exhibits some technological acumen, but I am not likely to go into the medical field), but we are intellectual peers in some areas of mutual interest.

I don't know what your big beef is with Armstrong quotes. I was driving some points that were synergistic with this thread topic. Also Armstrong is a key player in the moves towards global restructuring and a one-world reserve currency.

Just you and your soapbox my friend. Remember, it gets lonely at "the top," but you don't need me telling you that...

CoinCube, I wonder if most readers will get your point. Of course long ago I realized that reputation is the antithesis of meritocracy, because for example you see what happens when you get an important reputation, then the jealous worms come after you...

---

You have so many delusions and misconceptions thrown as erroneous accusations; including the fact that I was and still am an athlete. And I have excellent social skills and the count of my friends approach the Dunbar limit.

You also have very poor logic skills. If I said that I am important to making a solution, it doesn't follow logically that solution must be centralizing. If one developer wrote BitTorrent, that doesn't mean BitTorrent is not P2P decentralization.

Good grief, you are really too stupid for me to waste my time on.

Btw, Elon Musk relies on the corruption of government subsidies.


Don't worry, nobody will notice you are gone.

l3552 I have been recently been trying to solve a thought challenge. How does one tie together a large extended family spread out over a significant area when all individual actors are busy and geographically isolated. The natural trend of such a group even with blood ties is to maintain loose connection and for that connection to fray with time.

My first thought and the simplest solution is an annual gathering where ties are strengthened and renewed. However, with geographic separation this imposes substantial cost on all and for some the costs will be too high to participate.

My second thought was a system of labor credits exchanged over a website. These could be used for things like babysitting as family is usually preferred and perhaps even the exchange of skills and teaching either in person or  remotely via an online class model.

The goal of course is not to provide a service that cannot be replicated from strangers, but to develop something that adds value while simultaneously strengthening family bonds.
 
What interests me about your proposal is that your are essentially trying to solve the same problem on a much more ambitious scale worldwide rather then a single large family group.

However, I would note that you are perhaps wrong in at least one area. You claim that such a system cannot be considered illegal. However, should such such a system gain traction it seems certain that the "violence monopolist" would quickly reach out to crush it via tax law.

http://www.irs.gov/uac/Four-Things-to-Know-About-Bartering-1

Read your above five quotes in a row.  This is all central planning, collectivist, control freak mentality, things you would see from maybe Marx, Engels, or Stalin if they were posting on Bitcointalk.  I've even seen you type things before saying things like top down solutions don't work, and collapse, yet here you are, trying to tell everyone how important you are, and how you need to be the central planner.  I'm sure you will claim you "just need to be elected god temporarily to launch a decentralized consensus system", but this is something people have heard before.  Maybe Caesar and dozens of others comes to mind.

People do not perform actions for no reason.  There is always a motive behind human behavior.  You generally show a misanthropic viewpoint of everything and everyone, so motive is obviously not to "help society".  Your motives are entirely egomaniacal and sociopathic in nature, the same motives you find in serial killers and a few CEOs like Lloyd Blankfein.



Because, like most people involved in software, they were unimportant nobodys through most of their lives, who never succeeded in anything like some kind of sport or activity as a teenager, probably develop some kind of messed up psychological problems, then all of a sudden someone tells them they're important and shovels money at them.  You can't take the bottom of the food chain of society in both social status and physical appearance and suddenly give them power.  Someone like Elon Musk, who might have been bullied once or twice in his life, but obviously wasn't the bottom of the barrel growing up in society and came more from the middle, are the people who can actually function as normal human beings.

Man, I used to get excited about participating in a discussion on this board...

All it has become is a useless sounding board for quoting Armstrong all day. People can read his blog, no need to put it here too. I'll just butt out of this one from here on out. Good luck.

Don't let the door hit your "life is like a box of illogical excuses" hurt butt on the way out. Bye.

I relish the day socialism collapses and stops providing the daily necessities to these "free thinkers". When they actually have to work and produce, they will suddenly become realistic about fundamental economic realities.



Actually that is 500 man-hours per gallon, so should be 2000 man-hours of labor for 4 gallons.

The combustion engine rendered mankind 3 to 4 orders-of-magnitude more productive. The computer revolution is another 3 to 4 orders-of-magnitude increase in productivity.


---------------------------- Original Message ----------------------------
Subject: Mar 19: $8/hour = 4 gallons gas = 2000 man-hours hard labor
From:   iamback
Date:    Wed, March 18, 2015 1:31 pm
To:      "Armstrong Economics" <[email protected]>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Technological orders-of-magnitude productivity leverage paradigm shifts
explained in two photos: a teenager and a gallon of gas:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.10813925

(if the images below are too small, don't use Google Chrome, instead switch to Firefox. Google Chrome is supporting CSS3 which this forum is apparently misusing. I have messaged theymos about this bug.)

Another factor on where to migrate to? Armstrong's computer has correlated a 300 year solar cycle.

http://armstrongeconomics.com/2015/03/18/are-we-headed-back-to-an-ice-age/

Quote from: Armstrong Are we Headed Back to an Ice Age? One of the most shocking things I bumped into in the middle of the night was when I input the data on the energy output of the sun and then correlated that into our data base back to 6000BC. Low and behold, the 300 year [solar] cycle matched up with the rise and fall of empires, nations, and city states. Suddenly, the 309.6 year cycle of the ECM made sense. What I had discovered from tracking the footsteps of mankind was not the CAUSE, but the EFFECT. Nature came blasting through as a major contributor to the equation. l3552 newbie Activity: 31 Merit: 0 Re: Economic Devastation March 18, 2015, 11:34:09 AM #955 My ego is but a conquered enemy. I know who I am, what really matters and how the amount of commoditization of myself does not. I am sorry if I caused you any harm my sole interest was to show the value of the people and what could be done to protect them now. In your considerations about the world you removed any qualitative differentiation and toke out everything non-market from human environment. As the mind you are, the law of projection rapidly printed in you your worldview, in a matter that your pathological insults are a demonstration of the little morals you have left, shades of past incarnation without any roots. So, it appears that you have identified the "fundamental economics of everything that applies to organization of society" but little about human society. Words like "goods" and "credit" have lost great part of their meaning as you climbed your tower of solitude and yelled on this forum looking unconsciously for some help. I see now the main answer from first post. The solution the world depends on is exactly the one you most need. How beautiful are the harmonics of life. 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