El Salvador retirees protest against Bitcoin as legal tender - page 3.

MCobian

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Quote from: jamkesmas on September 09, 2021, 04:06:28 AM

Quote from: int03h on September 09, 2021, 02:16:41 AM

Choosing Bitcoin as a reserve for the elderly is a bold move. Most of the elderly are not knowledgeable about Bitcoin so it is obvious that they oppose the policies of the president of El Salvador and I consider it a normal reaction. I believe Bitcoin will go up in the long term and people have more confidence in the bold move of their president.

El Salvador retirees don't have to vote for bitcoin, president Bukele said in a tweet that for citizens concerned about their retirement funds, they can continue to choose to make transactions in US dollars as usual, using bitcoin not mandatory in the country if they have any doubts about bitcoin.

Actually, the reason El Salvador retirees reject Bitcoin is because they lack education about Bitcoin. We do have to understand that old people have
a harder time accepting something new, so they protest something they don't understand. The government of El Salvador should carry out a more
intensive education program about Bitcoin to the residents of El Salvador, especially the elderly population. Maybe the solution is that El Salvador
retirees can choose to use fiat if they don't trust Bitcoin. I agree with you, there is no compulsion from the government of El Salvador to use Bitcoin.

watergold

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Quote from: Sithara007 on September 08, 2021, 11:25:49 PM

Quote from: watergold on September 08, 2021, 02:13:45 PM

they only see the whole time because even if what you say is true, they are not aware of the real data and facts.
they only see from the point of view of the unpredictable rise and fall of btc and sometimes it rises and falls suddenly (eg yesterday).
This is different from the case of the US dollar exchange rate, which even though it experienced more declines in the data, it decreased little by little every year and because of the gradual decline, they did not feel any impact, but they did not realize that they did it periodically and repeatedly. will get bigger and more dangerous.

The advantage for US Dollar is that it is the reserve and trade currency of the world. Even if the purchasing power of the US Dollar goes down, no one is going to notice it. If that happens, people will just say that the price of gold, crude oil.etc went up, rather than saying that the value of USD has gone down. Even with respect to other fiat currencies this will happen. In reality, the exchange rates for certain currencies such as CHF has gone up in recent times. But ordinary people are unaware of the reason. They fail to see that the exchange rate went up, because the purchasing power of USD declined. On the other hand they assume that the rates went up because the CHF purchasing power increased and this is not true.

it's a bit of an unkind connotation but it's very true, it's like the US dollar is untouched by anything and no one dares to touch it.
and I just realized when you said that and the fact is that, instead of seeing the US dollar increase or decrease, they are more interested in looking at other aspects such as gold, oil etc.
but the reason for the global currency I think is very suitable because it is for this reason that almost all countries seem to be oriented there and without realizing the reasons that you have stated are actually rooted from here

oHnK

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Quote from: Sithara007 on September 08, 2021, 11:25:49 PM

On the other hand they assume that the rates went up because the CHF purchasing power increased and this is not true.

Actually Bitcoin cannot be accepted by them because they do not understand financial literacy well. They don't realize that the fiat they've always believed in is actually betraying them. There are three functions of money, as a means of payment, as a means of speculation and as a store of value. Are they aware that the current fiat cannot fulfill the third function properly. If at the time of the gold standard, fiat was stable, then at this time they are less informed that the money they currently hold does not have a clear underlying asset. Just a guarantee from the central bank. Has the central bank really worked well so far? we already know how this inflation was created by them, so they dare to remove the gold standard from the financial system. Initially god money became government money. Bitcoin and crypto are the latest innovations that make government money experience a transition period. They should realize that change is not always bad, sometimes there are improvements that are outdated.

jamkesmas

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Quote from: int03h on September 09, 2021, 02:16:41 AM

Choosing Bitcoin as a reserve for the elderly is a bold move. Most of the elderly are not knowledgeable about Bitcoin so it is obvious that they oppose the policies of the president of El Salvador and I consider it a normal reaction. I believe Bitcoin will go up in the long term and people have more confidence in the bold move of their president.

El Salvador retirees don't have to vote for bitcoin, president Bukele said in a tweet that for citizens concerned about their retirement funds, they can continue to choose to make transactions in US dollars as usual, using bitcoin not mandatory in the country if they have any doubts about bitcoin.

int03h

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Choosing Bitcoin as a reserve for the elderly is a bold move. Most of the elderly are not knowledgeable about Bitcoin so it is obvious that they oppose the policies of the president of El Salvador and I consider it a normal reaction. I believe Bitcoin will go up in the long term and people have more confidence in the bold move of their president.

faithupgrade

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Thats the only catch, people can simply use cryptocurrency to by pass the process of getting tax by investing money in the blockchain. El Salvador government can simply coordinate with their local crypto exchange to ask KYC so it can monitor the people who buys huge amount of crypto.

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Quote from: watergold on September 08, 2021, 02:13:45 PM

they only see the whole time because even if what you say is true, they are not aware of the real data and facts.
they only see from the point of view of the unpredictable rise and fall of btc and sometimes it rises and falls suddenly (eg yesterday).
This is different from the case of the US dollar exchange rate, which even though it experienced more declines in the data, it decreased little by little every year and because of the gradual decline, they did not feel any impact, but they did not realize that they did it periodically and repeatedly. will get bigger and more dangerous.

The advantage for US Dollar is that it is the reserve and trade currency of the world. Even if the purchasing power of the US Dollar goes down, no one is going to notice it. If that happens, people will just say that the price of gold, crude oil.etc went up, rather than saying that the value of USD has gone down. Even with respect to other fiat currencies this will happen. In reality, the exchange rates for certain currencies such as CHF has gone up in recent times. But ordinary people are unaware of the reason. They fail to see that the exchange rate went up, because the purchasing power of USD declined. On the other hand they assume that the rates went up because the CHF purchasing power increased and this is not true.

watergold

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Quote from: Sithara007 on September 08, 2021, 12:11:17 AM

It is funny that the people in El Salvador are protesting against the move, claiming that Bitcoin is volatile. But at the same time, they are perfectly fine with using the US Dollar (the legal tender there since 2001), despite the fact that it's purchasing power goes down with every passing year. Are these people unaware of the fact that Bitcoin's exchange rate (w.r.t US Dollar) has gone up by 50 million times ever since 2009? Or we can say that the value of USD has gone down by 50 million times during the last 12 years.

they only see the whole time because even if what you say is true, they are not aware of the real data and facts.
they only see from the point of view of the unpredictable rise and fall of btc and sometimes it rises and falls suddenly (eg yesterday).
This is different from the case of the US dollar exchange rate, which even though it experienced more declines in the data, it decreased little by little every year and because of the gradual decline, they did not feel any impact, but they did not realize that they did it periodically and repeatedly. will get bigger and more dangerous.

Charles-Tim

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Quote from: icopress on September 07, 2021, 10:46:45 AM

It seems to me that something quite different was meant ... the government of El Salvador does not infringe upon the rights of citizens regarding the methods of payment for goods and services, but only added one more to the existing methods of payment. Correct me if I am wrong or if I misunderstood you.

You are right, but the El Salvadorian government clarified this recently, I created a thread not quite long about this. The payment can be in Bitcoin while the receiver receive fiat. So, I have changed my thinking about this, I do not see El Salvadorian government mandating their citizens to accept Bitcoin, El Salvadorian can decide either to accept Bitcoin or dollar while the payment can be in Bitcoin.

Sithara007

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It is funny that the people in El Salvador are protesting against the move, claiming that Bitcoin is volatile. But at the same time, they are perfectly fine with using the US Dollar (the legal tender there since 2001), despite the fact that it's purchasing power goes down with every passing year. Are these people unaware of the fact that Bitcoin's exchange rate (w.r.t US Dollar) has gone up by 50 million times ever since 2009? Or we can say that the value of USD has gone down by 50 million times during the last 12 years.

Smartvirus

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Quote from: Despairo on August 31, 2021, 08:18:40 AM

Quote

“We know this coin fluctuates drastically. Its value changes from one second to another, and we will have no control over it,” Stanley Quinteros, a member of the Supreme Court of Justice’s workers’ union, reportedly said. Salvadorans also expressed concerns over the lack of knowledge and understanding of the technology needed to use cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin. Protesters held up signs saying, “We don’t want Bitcoin” and “No to corrupt money laundering.”

It's such a poor way to behave! Not knowing, you know that you don't know and instead of studying to know, you kick against as if that would solve the problem. Perhaps, when the President did say must, I never focused my attention on what that singular word could mean but if there is something I've known about humans, is that, we could be very defiant to unjust rules and policies. We don't enjoy being put under a must this or must that when we feel its got everything to do with our freewill.

El-Salvador's president making it a must was the only mistake in stating that policy. It should have rather been a more transition path to acceptance as, not all forks would be smart to catch up in one glance. Everyone gets to acknowledge bitcoin and cryptos in due time with there interaction with the system and people in the system. This should be the case to a more crypto acceptance.

Fortify

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Quote from: Despairo on August 31, 2021, 08:18:40 AM

Introduction : We already know El Salvador become the first country that 100% support Bitcoin because they plan to accept Bitcoin as a legal tender on September 7, 2021 which will bring mass adoption for Bitcoin. As we can see many users spreading good news about El Salvador in this forum, some of them:

I thought there will no bad news from El Salvador to Bitcoin, but I'm wrong I'm really shocked when I see a news talking some veteran, pensioners, and workers from El Salvador protest against Bitcoin as legal tender. The most shocked thing is their opinions about Bitcoin, all is bullshit!

Quote

“We know this coin fluctuates drastically. Its value changes from one second to another, and we will have no control over it,” Stanley Quinteros, a member of the Supreme Court of Justice’s workers’ union, reportedly said. Salvadorans also expressed concerns over the lack of knowledge and understanding of the technology needed to use cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin. Protesters held up signs saying, “We don’t want Bitcoin” and “No to corrupt money laundering.”

What on earth did they say??? NO CONTROL OVER IT, CORRUPT MONEY LAUNDERING!
Bitcoin = Be Your Own Bank, you have full control over it just like how Bank can have full control of your Fiat. Bitcoin could be used for Money Laundering but do you have an evidence about it? No! You just ignored the fact your favorite Fiat is always be used for money laundering $800 billion - $2 trillion in current US dollars every year!

Not understand about technology and lack of knowledge? You can still to learn, there's no restrictions to study Bitcoin where you from, where you live, how old are you, what you gender, anyone can learn it! A lot youtuber, article, animations, and whatever already make simple definition for Average Joe to learn Bitcoin, you don't need to learn the technical thing at least you know what is Bitcoin, how it works, how to use, etc etc.

Quote

According to local reports, El Salvador’s latest anti-Bitcoin protests were apparently a part of a wider opposition campaign by local veterans protesting over low pensions on Friday. As such, some protesters reportedly demanded a pension increase from $100 to $300.

They want to be rich, but they protest against Bitcoin used as legal tender LOL does this both picture are hard to understand? please, open your eyes. Bitcoin from 0 went to $47K while USD from $25 went to $1

Quote

Salvadoran President Nayib Bukele announced legislation to accept Bitcoin as legal tender alongside the U.S. dollar in early June. The bill later passed the nation’s Legislative Assembly and is scheduled to be enforced on Sept. 7. Last week, the president clarified that Salvadorans would be free not to use Bitcoin, stating:

“What if someone doesn’t want to use Bitcoin? Don’t download the Chivo app and continue living your normal life. Nobody is going to take your dollars. Someone can always queue up at Western Union and pay a commission.”

This is the most thing I fully respect El Salvador's President statement, he doesn't forcing anyone to download their own Bitcoin app named Chivo which I think it's web wallet or the worst case ask KYC of their citizens. So if you have a privacy concern and worried about the credibility/trustworthy about the wallet, you can use non-custodial wallet or hardware wallet.

In the end, I hope El Salvador's President wouldn't postpone or even rejecting the plan to accept BTCitcoin as legal tender

A very well put together piece of research. It seems like Bitcoin as an official country currency is a bit gimmicky and the young populist leader of El Salvador is trying to gain favor, however it seems to have backfired. I don't think it is a very rich country and a study from 2017 said only 33.8% of the country accessed the internet - it will have grown since then for sure, but that's still low for such a recent year. Beyond the younger generation who are likely to apply for the free money and use it, the rest of the country do not benefit from it at all. The leader might find himself thrown out of office when the next election comes around, if he hasn't already turned it into an authoritarian dictatorship by then.

watergold

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Quote from: Anonylz on September 05, 2021, 11:29:47 PM

Quote from: sikke on September 05, 2021, 10:47:07 PM

I'm not sure why they are protesting this?

They're essentially getting a free injection of capital because of BTC. If any other country was getting citizenship requests that are backed by millions of dollars in pledged investment to my home country I'd accept them in a heartbeat.

Just some archaic thinking. Let it sit for a while and they'll change their minds for sure.

People don't adapt to change so easily, I guess this protesters are not yet fully understand how the crypto space operates and what benefits they can actually enjoy by using it, perhaps there should more awareness on this fir better understanding to enable easy acceptance.

in the thread it is very clear that they are retirees which means they are parents and it would be difficult to say that they have to start adapting to this, at least it needs some detailed explanations but on the other hand it is easy for them to understand so they understand and at least they are willing to accept new things.
but I don't think this will have a big impact and it just takes time to finish this because if everyone feels the effects of bitcoin even these retirees will voluntarily accept bitcoin as a good adoption.

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It makes sense if a huge protest had other bigger players supporting it to make it look like it is worthy of a cause. Do not get me wrong I am not saying that they would even have to pay for everyone to go out, they do not have to, if they can pay for a certain group and get them to do good enough PR then they could get better results. Look at the anti-vaxx movement way before covid even started, there were people who were against vaccination even before covid started and now there are so many of them dying because of it, but not all of them got paid for it.

There were few big names that got paid for it and eventually they repeated what they said multiple times, plus pay few scientists to say something against the vaccination process and you will get some that will eventually yield and take your money to say "serum version could work too" at worst. So, it is not always about the whole group being backed, just few big names and few goons could lead to thousands following them for free.

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Well, I kind of get their point though. If I were a retiree in El Salvador, I’d probably join the protest. There’s a saying that you can’t teach an old dog new tricks. In my own opinion the best thing son or daughter or any younger person can do for their parents or the elderly in El Salvador is to counsel them to accept half of their pay as Fiat and half as BTC. It’s a win-win.

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Quote from: Charles-Tim on September 07, 2021, 05:03:36 AM

According to what I read on the news, legal tender in countries like El Salvador is exactly that, people do not have the right to reject it, but legal tender in some countries like US is not like that, you still have the option to accept it or not but it is a legal form of payment.

It seems to me that something quite different was meant ... the government of El Salvador does not infringe upon the rights of citizens regarding the methods of payment for goods and services, but only added one more to the existing methods of payment. Correct me if I am wrong or if I misunderstood you.

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Quote from: KaliLinux on September 07, 2021, 02:12:50 AM

Quote from: Charles-Tim on August 31, 2021, 08:57:44 AM

According to the news I have read was that 30% of El Salvadorians make use of bank, this is one of the reasons the bill to make Bitcoin a legal tender was proposed and accepted by the Salvadoran Congress.

Quote from: https://cointelegraph.com/news/el-salvador-president-bitcoin-law-will-be-approved-tonight

The #BitcoinLaw has been approved by a supermajority in the Salvadoran Congress.

62 out of 84 votes!

History! #Btc

— Nayib Bukele (@nayibbukele) June 9, 2021
He said that accepting Bitcoin would be mandatory for all businesses. “They have to take it by law,” he said of merchants in the country. “If you go to Mexico, they have to take your pesos.”

This would have been the cause of protests by some people that went against the bitcoin law. If bitcoin is accepted, it is by force that every business should accept it as a form of payment in El Salvador. I think the government should not go to this extent, they should let citizens to have their own opinion to make. Even if they accept Bitcoin as a legal tender, it should not be a compulsory form of payment, they should just only accept it as a legal form of payment which I think it is enough and not mandating their citizens to accept it as some do not want to. Bitcoin should give freedom, El Salvadorian government should also think about this before making compulsion move, Bitcoin is better to just be a legal form of payment and not more.

I believe what the El Salvador President is saying is that, since Bitcoin is now a legal tender in the country, Businesses do not have the right to reject it IF IT IS PRESENTED AS A PAYMENT. We understand that some businesses might want to reject it when it is used as a means of payment and we know some citizens will still continue to use the local currency if they are in possession of them but Businesses don't have to reject the collection of Bitcoin When it is presented for payment because businesses in other countries will definitely accept whatever is termed the legal Tender in that country.

if the state has legalized bitcoin, then private companies must be able to obey it, or it will be against the law, and of course there will be consequences if you violate the law. and it looks like trying to follow in the footsteps of elsalvador, and if this is done by more countries, then we are lucky people because we have known bitcoin from the beginning before many people know about it, and that means big profits we can get

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Quote from: KaliLinux on September 07, 2021, 02:12:50 AM

I believe what the El Salvador President is saying is that, since Bitcoin is now a legal tender in the country, Businesses do not have the right to reject it IF IT IS PRESENTED AS A PAYMENT.

According to what I read on the news, legal tender in countries like El Salvador is exactly that, people do not have the right to reject it, but legal tender in some countries like US is not like that, you still have the option to accept it or not but it is a legal form of payment.

Quote from: https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm

Is it legal for a business in the United States to refuse cash as a form of payment?
There is no federal statute mandating that a private business, a person, or an organization must accept currency or coins as payment for goods or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether to accept cash unless there is a state law that says otherwise.

Section 31 U.S.C. 5103, entitled "Legal tender," states: "United States coins and currency [including Federal Reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal Reserve Banks and national banks] are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues." This statute means that all U.S. money as identified above is a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor.

But if El Salvador makes it a legal tender, it is enforced by law just as you implied unlike some other countries, the reason to have just make it a legal means of payment in such country instead.

KaliLinux

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Quote from: Charles-Tim on August 31, 2021, 08:57:44 AM

According to the news I have read was that 30% of El Salvadorians make use of bank, this is one of the reasons the bill to make Bitcoin a legal tender was proposed and accepted by the Salvadoran Congress.

Quote from: https://cointelegraph.com/news/el-salvador-president-bitcoin-law-will-be-approved-tonight

The #BitcoinLaw has been approved by a supermajority in the Salvadoran Congress.

62 out of 84 votes!

History! #Btc

— Nayib Bukele (@nayibbukele) June 9, 2021
He said that accepting Bitcoin would be mandatory for all businesses. “They have to take it by law,” he said of merchants in the country. “If you go to Mexico, they have to take your pesos.”

This would have been the cause of protests by some people that went against the bitcoin law. If bitcoin is accepted, it is by force that every business should accept it as a form of payment in El Salvador. I think the government should not go to this extent, they should let citizens to have their own opinion to make. Even if they accept Bitcoin as a legal tender, it should not be a compulsory form of payment, they should just only accept it as a legal form of payment which I think it is enough and not mandating their citizens to accept it as some do not want to. Bitcoin should give freedom, El Salvadorian government should also think about this before making compulsion move, Bitcoin is better to just be a legal form of payment and not more.

I believe what the El Salvador President is saying is that, since Bitcoin is now a legal tender in the country, Businesses do not have the right to reject it IF IT IS PRESENTED AS A PAYMENT. We understand that some businesses might want to reject it when it is used as a means of payment and we know some citizens will still continue to use the local currency if they are in possession of them but Businesses don't have to reject the collection of Bitcoin When it is presented for payment because businesses in other countries will definitely accept whatever is termed the legal Tender in that country.

Sithara007

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Quote from: SirLancelot on September 06, 2021, 02:11:19 PM

Not when in investment world. I understand that volatility for your fiat could be a bad thing (which we have seen volatility still happen in few nations) but when you are investing into something volatility is not a bad thing. These people are protesting something that has gone up 5x in a year, if they knew what volatility means then they would understand that legal tender being so volatile could bring them so much money.

It is basically El Salvador having a money that is pegged to USD and going up each time USD loses value. How could you not see that, almost all third world nations have a big economical problem and their fiat drops while bitcoin goes up, which means bitcoins volatility could actually be the answer to all problems they are facing.

They don't have a national currency in El Salvador. The Salvadoran Colon was withdrawn in 2001 and after that the US Dollar is being used as the national currency. The purchasing power of US Dollar has been only moderately declining for the last two decades, and therefore those who use this currency might not have realized that they are losing their wealth with USD. But that has changed drastically over the last couple of years. As a result of stimulus measures and other government initiatives, the USD is rapidly losing it's purchasing power.

The M1 money supply now stands at $20 trillion, compared to the level of $4 trillion two years ago. That is a massive 400% increase. Only fools would believe that this will not have an impact on the purchasing power of the United States Dollar.

Topic: El Salvador retirees protest against Bitcoin as legal tender - page 3. (Read 1085 times)