El Salvador retirees protest against Bitcoin as legal tender - page 6.

Wind_FURY

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The protests are growing in support.

That is a DEPRESSING picture. But OP, you’re wrong. They are NOT “protesting against Bitcoin”, they’re protesting against the laws that FORCE them to accept Bitcoin. I already said it in another thread that accepting Bitcoin legal tender is OK, but forcing the people to accept it without giving them the right to say “NO” will be a problem. El Salvador should let Bitcoin be used in its own merit.

Shenzou

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the people that are protesting against bitcoin and they still believe that it is used for money laundering that they should have an audit on their income and belonging, because the only people who would go against it have some kind of profit of some transactions going unnoticed, because will transaction being on the blockchain people can see what money goes to whom and that makes any big transaction to be seen and inspected,

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Quote from: el kaka22 on September 01, 2021, 12:30:06 PM

I am not entirely sure if I am understanding this correctly or not, maybe it is just me and I would like it if someone explains to me what the problem is all about. I personally thought that this was given as an option to people who live there, if it is an option then why are they going against it? If you are a retired person who doesn't want anything to do with bitcoin then all you have to do is ignore it? I mean if it is just an option then do not pick that option. Don't they have their own currency as well?

Also do not get me started on volatility, it usually goes up and it made everyone a lot of money if they stand here and not sell their coins whereas the fiat currency in every nation dropped in value by a large margin, so it is a good thing even for a retired person, they would have been richer. If it is just an option then why are they not ignoring it, could someone explain that to me please?

I would say it's a result of propaganda! Old people believe that Bitcoin is used for illegal activities, and now probably these old people think that allowing Bitcoin to be a legal tender will draw people from criminal circles! So now these old people are just protesting against new regulations because they don't see any benefits for them directly! They don't understand crypto, they want something in their wallets! And can we blame them?! It's something new that they don't understand, maybe they feel like left behind again, and they are protesting... as the last chance to change something for them!

BITCOIN4X

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Quote from: AicecreaME on September 01, 2021, 07:07:39 AM

~Snip

Why are you quoting the OP everything, just quote the part you need to comment on and it's better than quoting the whole thing.

Quote from: The Sceptical Chymist on September 01, 2021, 05:25:48 AM

~Snip

Two reasons I can take from your post are:
1. Lack of information or knowledge about bitcoin among the public.
2. Bitcoin price volatility

The two plausible reasons above are the things that determine why some people refuse and protest. I can't find any source as a reason to claim that the government of El Salvador has forced its people to use bitcoin as a legal tender. Everyone can still choose their preferred means of payment including USD or whatever they use all the time. Stompix has explained well how they should get financial freedom including whether or not people agree to use bitcoin even though it is currently legalized by the government.

Quote from: The Sceptical Chymist on September 01, 2021, 05:25:48 AM

Not sure about the money laundering argument. I'm sure it happens, but that's not a valid argument against it IMO.

Abuse can occur with any currency including bitcoin. The government can control abuse by implementing a KYC system. But in the end the people of El Salvador can choose what currency they like. Bitcoin have never forced them to be used as currency. The government can only offer the best solution for a new payment system with bitcoin and the rest of society can decide. Everything takes time and the process of adaptation.

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Quote from: el kaka22 on September 01, 2021, 12:30:06 PM

I am not entirely sure if I am understanding this correctly or not, maybe it is just me and I would like it if someone explains to me what the problem is all about. I personally thought that this was given as an option to people who live there, if it is an option then why are they going against it? If you are a retired person who doesn't want anything to do with bitcoin then all you have to do is ignore it? I mean if it is just an option then do not pick that option. Don't they have their own currency as well?

Also do not get me started on volatility, it usually goes up and it made everyone a lot of money if they stand here and not sell their coins whereas the fiat currency in every nation dropped in value by a large margin, so it is a good thing even for a retired person, they would have been richer. If it is just an option then why are they not ignoring it, could someone explain that to me please?

I've seen these protesters are afraid of receving their pensions and welfare in bitcoin futurely, so they want to make sure the government keeps the payments in dollar (the country doesn't have local currency), while demonstrating their insatisfaction with the digital currency and the low value of pensions paid to retired citizens by the government.
But of course, I think this protest is following a political agenda from the establishment which isn't confortable with the change in the financial system. The statement from supreme court of justice's member presented in OP gives a good clue about it. It really doesn't make much sense to say no to Bitcoin since no one is being forced to adopt it.

The man below was selling badanas during the protest. Since the main complaint of the protest was poor pensions, lack of decent income for veterans and pensioners, I suppose he didn't profit a lot... Or is there anyone sponsoring protests like this to uneducate the population regards bitcoin?

Bitcoin law protests break out in El Salvador as Central American neighbours wait to see its success

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Quote from: NeuroticFish on September 01, 2021, 10:32:48 AM

While I don't deny that this kind of things may not be explained well enough for the elder people, I'm not sure what the government can do.
The posters they held show that they clearly prefer to listen to certain old narratives than government.

More attention? Bitcoin will not be compulsory, so if they don't want it they can avoid it without making so much noise. They've even got some free money, but nobody forces them use that.
I think that it's all politics in this "protest" and Bitcoin is just caught in the middle. By far not a "fair complaint" imho.

By concern I mean in the sense that the government must also continue to provide broad insight, not only the sector of entrepreneurs, investors, traders, but every element that has not fully supported Bitcoin as a legal payment. Bitcoin is not mandatory, well I know they are even given money for free as a form of regulatory proof that Bitcoin is only an alternative with a valid license to be used there without compromising the use of money that has been used before.

Back to El Salvador, that at this stage they will surely be successful in implementing this, and the things that are the issues or some of the protests are the obstacles. first used as an evaluation that Bitcoin has an advantage.

el kaka22

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I am not entirely sure if I am understanding this correctly or not, maybe it is just me and I would like it if someone explains to me what the problem is all about. I personally thought that this was given as an option to people who live there, if it is an option then why are they going against it? If you are a retired person who doesn't want anything to do with bitcoin then all you have to do is ignore it? I mean if it is just an option then do not pick that option. Don't they have their own currency as well?

Also do not get me started on volatility, it usually goes up and it made everyone a lot of money if they stand here and not sell their coins whereas the fiat currency in every nation dropped in value by a large margin, so it is a good thing even for a retired person, they would have been richer. If it is just an option then why are they not ignoring it, could someone explain that to me please?

molsewid

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Quote from: pealr12 on September 01, 2021, 10:43:19 AM

To some extent you can't blame them for their actions base on their level of understanding, I think what the government should have propse is make btc an alternative to transact as well as fiat, those who prefer to transact on btc can have the freedom to access it without restrictions and others who prefer fiat will carry on, this kind of transformation should not be carried out immediately, it should be a gradual process thing so the people get to understand it as time passes.

And for sure even in Japan which bitcoin or cryptocurrency is now legally adopted maybe some of the citizens of Japan have also a sentiments over cryptocurrency. I mean not all people could easily adopt this newest trend of finance and we can't truly blame them so it is better to have another option to transact I mean let those people who wanted to transact using bitcoin could use and let those who didn't want make their choices. And I am very certain that bitcoin will be just become a part of the economy but the thought that it might going to replace fiat's existence I guess is impossible.

pealr12

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To some extent you can't blame them for their actions base on their level of understanding, I think what the government should have propse is make btc an alternative to transact as well as fiat, those who prefer to transact on btc can have the freedom to access it without restrictions and others who prefer fiat will carry on, this kind of transformation should not be carried out immediately, it should be a gradual process thing so the people get to understand it as time passes.

NeuroticFish

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Quote from: Sterbens on August 31, 2021, 11:44:17 AM

Because this is indeed an early stage, it is possible that the Government should work even harder to prove that the constraints faced by the community, especially the complaints of retirees, will be given more attention.
It must be continued according to the initial plan, how this goal must be achieved together with mutual synergy between the government and the community in order to reap success.

Despite all the accepted reasons, this is still worthy as input for the government to give more attention.
People really want things that are in accordance with their needs on that day, just as living the economy in the midst of Covid 19 has left many behind. So a fair complaint where it happened in El Salvador which authorized the adoption of legal payments via Bitcoin.

While I don't deny that this kind of things may not be explained well enough for the elder people, I'm not sure what the government can do.
The posters they held show that they clearly prefer to listen to certain old narratives than government.

More attention? Bitcoin will not be compulsory, so if they don't want it they can avoid it without making so much noise. They've even got some free money, but nobody forces them use that.
I think that it's all politics in this "protest" and Bitcoin is just caught in the middle. By far not a "fair complaint" imho.

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Quote from: Darker45 on August 31, 2021, 10:15:30 PM

I guess their fears are founded first and foremost on lack of knowledge. This possibility is what I'm also looking at considering that Bitcoin is indeed alien to many people, especially the old ones. A lot of old people could not even manage to send a text message. So it is understandable that they are worried. But I guess the message of the government that nobody is forced to use Bitcoin over USD hasn't reached them. This is what I am also saying in another thread, that the government should strengthen Bitcoin education and information dissemination while gradually implementing the use of Bitcoin as a legal tender.

People have all the right to protest especially if they think changes will not be beneficial for them. So its a natural thing and that the government should know how to handle in times like this. But since the president has decided to make bitcoin a legal tender then he should also be able to respond to what the citizens are asking particularly those who are retiress.

Of course, people have always the right to protest. But the question is, what are they protesting for? What are they against? What are they worried about?

It seems they are up against something which isn't even in existence. They are worried that their pensions will be paid in Bitcoin. They're worried that USD is going to be replaced with Bitcoin. They are worried that the law will make it mandatory for Bitcoin to be accepted. Which are all but wrong information. So they are protesting based on imagined fears, pointless anxieties, misinformation, and misunderstanding.

Of course, the government should step up its information drive to counter all these misinformation, doubts, and fears.

DrBeer

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Quote from: davis196 on September 01, 2021, 02:17:21 AM

Those protesters seem to be manipulated by someone.
I'm sure that the people of El Salvador will have freedom of choice and the government will not force them to use Bitcoin and to receive their salaries and pensions in BTC only.
It is pretty clear that Bitcoin will be the second legal tender in El Salvador,next to the US dollar.
The protest makes sense only if Bitcoin becomes the one and only legal tender in that country.
Receiving your pension or a salary in the form of a highly volatile currency/asset seems pretty scary for people,who aren't tech savvy.

Seniors are the perfect environment for manipulation! They already have a weakened thought process, they usually live in the past, they do not have up-to-date information, they are ready to vote for anyone who promises them to do as they want and demand. But, as practice shows, the one who manipulates them, then simply throws them away, saying "excuse me, it didn't work out, everyone around is guilty, they are against you, and did not let me do what I promised you." And old people are such that it is easier for them to believe that there are enemies around, than to realize that they themselves are fools and create problems for themselves. Therefore, the next time they will vote for the one who deceived them the previous time! And this will be repeated many times ... But they will never find the courage to admit the truth.

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Quote from: Despairo on August 31, 2021, 08:18:40 AM

I thought there will no bad news from El Salvador to Bitcoin, but I'm wrong I'm really shocked when I see a news talking some veteran, pensioners, and workers from El Salvador protest against Bitcoin as legal tender. The most shocked thing is their opinions about Bitcoin, all is bullshit!

Quote

“We know this coin fluctuates drastically. Its value changes from one second to another, and we will have no control over it,” Stanley Quinteros, a member of the Supreme Court of Justice’s workers’ union, reportedly said. Salvadorans also expressed concerns over the lack of knowledge and understanding of the technology needed to use cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin. Protesters held up signs saying, “We don’t want Bitcoin” and “No to corrupt money laundering.”

Am I the only one thinking that everything has 2 sides??
I think that it is expected that not all of the people in El Salvador will agree with Bitcoin as a legal tender because after all, the country is a democratic country therefore people can protest if they see that it isn't beneficial for them.

Quote from: Despairo on August 31, 2021, 08:18:40 AM

Quote

According to local reports, El Salvador’s latest anti-Bitcoin protests were apparently a part of a wider opposition campaign by local veterans protesting over low pensions on Friday. As such, some protesters reportedly demanded a pension increase from $100 to $300.

Another reason why these retirees are against Bitcoin as a legal tender. They are under the opposition team.
Another reason into why these people are against it is because of the technical aspects of Bitcoin. They are old people and understanding a concept that seems to be technical for them will be hard.
Another reason is these retirees doesn't have any access to the internet or even smartphone itself where we are accessing Bitcoin. How can they benefit into it if they can't access into it?? These maybe are the reasons why they are against it.

Overall, people that are against Bitcoin is expected already because not all of them will have access into it. These retirees have different perspective too when it comes to Bitcoin and fiat money. After all, I think that they have a choice though into how they will accept their pension. On the other hand, putting Bitcoin as a legal tender in El Salvador doesn't mean that fiat currency will not be used anymore.

Vishnu.Reang

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Quote from: kryptqnick on September 01, 2021, 05:20:58 AM

I have older relatives, and they are still very skeptical about me using Bitcoin. In spite of everything, they believe it's a financial pyramid and think it's very unwise of me to deal with it. So, honestly, I'm not surprised it's the case in El Salvador as well. People who've lived dozens of years without cryptos feel like it's an unnecessary risk to take. Then again, I'm mad they're protesting against El Salvador adopting Bitcoin because it's not like El Salvador is saying goodbye to the USD and forcing everyone to use Bitcoin instead. So they're not fighting for their right to use fiat; they're fighting to deprive others of the right to use cryptos.

After all these internet related scams, it is very difficult to convince the older generation that Bitcoin is not a scam. I have faced this issue in my country (India). Here the media is also spreading FUD against Bitcoin, by claiming that it is a multi-trillion internet scam. Lack of support from the government makes matters worse. However, it is easy to convince the youngsters, as they are more open to new technology. But the problem is that these younger people hardly have any surplus funds, while the pensioners have significant amounts that can be diverted to crypto.

AicecreaME

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Quote from: Despairo on August 31, 2021, 08:18:40 AM

Introduction : We already know El Salvador become the first country that 100% support Bitcoin because they plan to accept Bitcoin as a legal tender on September 7, 2021 which will bring mass adoption for Bitcoin. As we can see many users spreading good news about El Salvador in this forum, some of them:

I thought there will no bad news from El Salvador to Bitcoin, but I'm wrong I'm really shocked when I see a news talking some veteran, pensioners, and workers from El Salvador protest against Bitcoin as legal tender. The most shocked thing is their opinions about Bitcoin, all is bullshit!

Quote

“We know this coin fluctuates drastically. Its value changes from one second to another, and we will have no control over it,” Stanley Quinteros, a member of the Supreme Court of Justice’s workers’ union, reportedly said. Salvadorans also expressed concerns over the lack of knowledge and understanding of the technology needed to use cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin. Protesters held up signs saying, “We don’t want Bitcoin” and “No to corrupt money laundering.”

What on earth did they say??? NO CONTROL OVER IT, CORRUPT MONEY LAUNDERING!
Bitcoin = Be Your Own Bank, you have full control over it just like how Bank can have full control of your Fiat. Bitcoin could be used for Money Laundering but do you have an evidence about it? No! You just ignored the fact your favorite Fiat is always be used for money laundering $800 billion - $2 trillion in current US dollars every year!

Not understand about technology and lack of knowledge? You can still to learn, there's no restrictions to study Bitcoin where you from, where you live, how old are you, what you gender, anyone can learn it! A lot youtuber, article, animations, and whatever already make simple definition for Average Joe to learn Bitcoin, you don't need to learn the technical thing at least you know what is Bitcoin, how it works, how to use, etc etc.

Quote

According to local reports, El Salvador’s latest anti-Bitcoin protests were apparently a part of a wider opposition campaign by local veterans protesting over low pensions on Friday. As such, some protesters reportedly demanded a pension increase from $100 to $300.

They want to be rich, but they protest against Bitcoin used as legal tender LOL does this both picture are hard to understand? please, open your eyes. Bitcoin from 0 went to $47K while USD from $25 went to $1

Quote

Salvadoran President Nayib Bukele announced legislation to accept Bitcoin as legal tender alongside the U.S. dollar in early June. The bill later passed the nation’s Legislative Assembly and is scheduled to be enforced on Sept. 7. Last week, the president clarified that Salvadorans would be free not to use Bitcoin, stating:

“What if someone doesn’t want to use Bitcoin? Don’t download the Chivo app and continue living your normal life. Nobody is going to take your dollars. Someone can always queue up at Western Union and pay a commission.”

This is the most thing I fully respect El Salvador's President statement, he doesn't forcing anyone to download their own Bitcoin app named Chivo which I think it's web wallet or the worst case ask KYC of their citizens. So if you have a privacy concern and worried about the credibility/trustworthy about the wallet, you can use non-custodial wallet or hardware wallet.

In the end, I hope El Salvador's President wouldn't postpone or even rejecting the plan to accept BTCitcoin as legal tender

Source :

I guess those people who have protested against the adoption of El Salvador on bitcoin to make it as a legal tender were not really informed and knowledgeable enough about the power and benefits bitcoin upholds. Given the range of age of the people you have mentioned: veterans and pensioners definitely belong to the older generations. Maybe these people aren't aware of the new technology such as blockchain that can secure their funds and help them manage them on their own. Perhaps, these people are old-school and weren't just educated properly about bitcoin's nature and how to utilize it. Or maybe they were given the chance to learn, but they pushed the opportunity away because of being close-minded. We can't just really please anyone and let them pick our side despite giving all the information needed.

There will always be opposition, but don't get me wrong, I know opposition also balances and makes the aspect of the economy of a country, rules, and laws to be thoroughly thought upon. Let's just hope that El Salvador's government will take a look at the concern of their citizens and address them properly. May the protest be an eye-opener for their government to review their plans and to be transparent to the citizens of whatever they are planning to do. Hopefully, they will still push through the bitcoin adoption as legal tender the moment every issue is settled down.

The Sceptical Chymist

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Quote from: Despairo on August 31, 2021, 08:18:40 AM

What on earth did they say??? NO CONTROL OVER IT, CORRUPT MONEY LAUNDERING!
Bitcoin = Be Your Own Bank, you have full control over it just like how Bank can have full control of your Fiat. Bitcoin could be used for Money Laundering but do you have an evidence about it? No!

Bro....first of all, if we're talking about pensioners, which I assume are older retirees, of course they're not going to be in favor of bitcoin, which is a form of money that's only been around since 2009. I also assume many older folks in El Salvador probably aren't up-to-date on a lot of new technology. That's part of why they're resisting it.

And I also wouldn't dismiss their point about volatility, because no matter how much you and I love bitcoin, an El Salvadorian with very little money is going to want a stable form of money, not one that they have to worry about fluctuating in value--sometimes drastically--from day to day, if not by the hour. Put yourself in their shoes and stop thinking like a young (I'm going to assume that about you) bitcoin investor.

I wouldn't want to receive my paycheck in bitcoin, and I've said that many times--and it's precisely because of the volatility, although there are other factors as well, such as the fact that I can't pay my bills with it or buy food, gas, and most other things either. So if a bitcoin believer like me doesn't want to completely adopt bitcoin as a currency, why in the hell would you expect the average El Salvador citizen to?

Not sure about the money laundering argument. I'm sure it happens, but that's not a valid argument against it IMO.

kryptqnick

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I have older relatives, and they are still very skeptical about me using Bitcoin. In spite of everything, they believe it's a financial pyramid and think it's very unwise of me to deal with it. So, honestly, I'm not surprised it's the case in El Salvador as well. People who've lived dozens of years without cryptos feel like it's an unnecessary risk to take. Then again, I'm mad they're protesting against El Salvador adopting Bitcoin because it's not like El Salvador is saying goodbye to the USD and forcing everyone to use Bitcoin instead. So they're not fighting for their right to use fiat; they're fighting to deprive others of the right to use cryptos.

Karartma1

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Now that the government made it clear that Bitcoin's not gonna be mandatory but people can choose whether to receive payments in USD or BTC freely, there are no more excuses.
If you want bitcoin, then take it.
If you don't want bitcoin then don't accept it.
This was a great move to avoid further problems, I've always been against making bitcoin acceptance mandatory. Now let the people recognize bitcoin's potential.
As for the retirees, well no comment.

Kiley33

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They do not recognize Bitcoin because they do not believe in Bitcoin.
Bitcoin is still volatile, and they cannot control Bitcoin. They worry that today's $10 bitcoin will be worth $1 tomorrow.
They want to live. But now it appears that El Salvador’s national currency has no value. They are still biased towards the US dollar.

davis196

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Those protesters seem to be manipulated by someone.
I'm sure that the people of El Salvador will have freedom of choice and the government will not force them to use Bitcoin and to receive their salaries and pensions in BTC only.
It is pretty clear that Bitcoin will be the second legal tender in El Salvador,next to the US dollar.
The protest makes sense only if Bitcoin becomes the one and only legal tender in that country.
Receiving your pension or a salary in the form of a highly volatile currency/asset seems pretty scary for people,who aren't tech savvy.

Topic: El Salvador retirees protest against Bitcoin as legal tender - page 6. (Read 1085 times)