Topic: Foundation Devices 'Passport Batch 2' hardware wallet review - page 4. (Read 1948 times)

I like the look and the feel of the Passport, but I agree it is a bit flashy.  I wasn't sure what to expect but I got an idea the other day; my daughter walked into my home office the other day and she noticed the passport right away.  I think she was kind of shocked that I had a candy-bar phone in 2023, and right away asked "What is that".

The idea that it looks like an old-school phone might make some ignore it, but then again it's rather odd in this day and age for someone to have a phone of that shape and size.  That alone might make some people more curious.  The device itself doesn't have any indication that it's a bitcoin wallet, and it would take some one who knew that "Foundation" is a wallet manufacturer to recognize it for what it is.

As for other devices, the Nano S and the ColdCard are probably the best designs from an "incognito" perspective.  I will say that the Passport is by far the best hardware wallet I've ever used.  The quality is second to none, and it's very easy to use for an air-gapped wallet.  My ColdCard Mk4 can also be used air-gapped, but it's more cumbersome to use, especially if you have long, complex passphrase wallets you like to access regularly.

I don't know any thieves who are hunting to steal old style devices looking like phones, and you certainly wont bring Passport device glued to your forehead, or put in on the coffee shop table for everyone to see.

There are so many wrong things with this tiny design, starting from entering words/numbers, to small screens that can display and verify the whole address, they are cheap and break easily, etc.
And why the heck would they have to copy what others are doing? Passport is unique, they are the first who made this design and now ColdCard is doing similar BlackBerry design.
You have the choice, so use what you like most.

I would certainly like to see skins and cases for Passport wallet, for protection from scratches, drops and maybe more.

I agree, but I think there's always an option to improve or rather modify its overall look to our liking... @n0nce mentioned "3D-printable custom back cover" in the past and I think sooner or later, they're ^{[or someone else]} going to release STL files for the other parts ^{[e.g. "they released this for the FE"]}.

A service "like this one" might come in handy for getting a different skin for those parts.

To be honest, I don't like that the hardware wallet is shaped like a mobile phone. That makes it more susceptible to theft, since there are a lot of cellphone thieves lurking about in many parts of the world. It doesn't help that it also looks flashy - the bronze look just serves to attract more eyeballs to it.

What's wrong with making it a paper shape or a bracket or even like the Trezor & Ledger - plain designs that do not bring any attention.

It's not a bad idea. But the problem with that is that an already pretty expensive device will become even more expensive if it becomes waterproof.

The question is how profitable will it be for the company to produce and brand their own waterproof cases if we can already get cheaper ones elsewhere? I personally wouldn't care about the make of the waterproof case as long as it protects whatever is inside, so I see no reason to go for a more expensive Foundation branded waterproof case.

Yeah, I think replaceable parts is the priority. Especially, if they can be replaced with commonly found components, which I don't think any hardware wallet has managed to do. Obviously, the main software, and chip isn't likely going to be replaceable, but I'm thinking about buttons or screens, batteries, and things like that, which could potentially be made via common components found in other devices. I like that idea, hard to pull off though.

Repair, I'd like to leave to the end user, there's a element of trust needed to send your device in for repair, I have the attitude that physical attacks, are quite unpredictable.

I generally like and support the idea of Passport accessories. Consumers can 'freshen up' the look and feel of their device, can improve, better protect or even fix it (Spare parts? Replacement screen? Replacement Keypad? Is something like this an option? Would it be compatible with your security model? What about right to repair?), while the company can keep selling stuff, without pushing out a new hardware wallet every year, making last-gen owners feel left behind.

I've tried to see if it is hard to open the device (e.g. for repairs) and while there seems to be no glue, it fits together very tightly and I was worried about damaging it. But accessories could definitely be purely external; like back shells, screen protectors, silicone cases, carry cases, waterproof cases, ... Although that may demand much more effort than what we (I) expect.

So while the client is making the purchase he was to directly pay it to UPS instead to Foundation as a company? I may be thinking this wrong and I would love your input but, from a user perspective, this operation seems like it's a bit confuse - If I'm willing to pay for such a premium for such a device (considering the offers in the market), the least that I would expect is that I would pay whatever had to pay to Foundation and then the order would eventually come to my house - no need to make two separate transactions, one for you and one for UPS. I may be wrong on the following assumption, but doesn't it mean that by paying directly to UPS it makes me the one responsible for the package, thus it would be me who would have to argue with them if something went bad as opposed to being Foundation the ones responsible to care and making sure that the package arrives with no problems?

Regarding liquidity - I totally understand and support the concept that no company in the world (besides Google and Apple) has the same liquidity as Amazon has to have that kind of "compensation" system implemented. I think, however, that you could make some kind of partnership with a carrier (even having some of your devices in their warehouses?) and also ask them the % of situations that their simulation actually ended up on the wrong said a.k.a where the customer ended up paying more than what they were told. I know that in order to get good shipping values you'll need to have a higher volume of items, but at least I see space for working on the whole shipping taxes calculation (for countries outside US).


Interesting insight, thank you for it! n0nce also pointed out that the keypad felt a bit "weird" when compared with the previous version, so it's nice to also have a confirmation from your side - it's even better knowing that you already detected that it can be improved and improvements are already being put into place in the next generation!

Another question (if I may) : Regarding the funding that your company has managed to get so far, how do you manage the relationship with your investors? In one side you've got investors that want to have returns on their investment, but on the other hand you have the main purpose of your device that naturally makes the production costs high and directly impacts the amount of units that you are able to produce in order to make even, or make a tiny bit margin of profit. How do you deal and manage this situation with the investors?

I know you told us there are no plans for making new devices in near future, but one of my suggestions would be to consider making Passport waterproof or water resistant device.
This probably needs a lot of work in redesign of inside, but even cheaper solutions like waterproof cases for protection would be interesting, and you could sell them separately.
I already know several hardware wallets that started making waterproof devices, so better think about that on time.

Currently we just display the estimated import tax, but we don't charge the customer. The customer then needs to pay it directly from UPS (or whatever carrier they select) upon package delivery.

I think there is a way where we could pay the import tax on behalf of the customer, and therefore charge them for the estimated tax during checkout. I'll explore if this is possible, because I like your idea. The only downside would be if the estimate is consistently lower than the actual tax; that would eat into our margins and we aren't quite as big as Amazon


The biggest challenges by far were (1) getting the copper plating to look good consistently and (2) keypad feel and performance.

We will never again do a copper plating process on zinc alloy. We are exploring PVD coatings for future generations of Passport. The supplier had a really had time getting the color within our specification, and it was one of the main reasons we were delayed last year. We also had to throw away lots of parts due to surface finish issues.

For the keypad, we had challenges with both the number keys and the metal navigation keys. We do a pretty rigorous inspection process now, including grinding down posts of the metal keys if they don't feel good enough. In a few months we will be introducing a new keypad with more consistent performance, where the metal keys and plastic keys are backed by the same rubber membrane.

Regarding suppliers in general, we stick with the ones that do good work for us, and we look for new ones in areas where we are not satisfied. I think the only real way to evaluate a supplier is to run a batch of parts through them and see the output – and of course see how they respond to feedback and iterate.

Indeed, the bitcointalk audience is one of, if not the most reliable audience that you could expose your product to - you've got many experienced users that are happy to tell you their thoughts and you've also the remaining users - from newbies to medium average users that for sure are looking for the next reliable hardware wallet to buy. From the back of my mind I can give you an example such as Satochip[1]. From my perspective I think that this is one of those moves that you'll never go wrong with - worst case scenario you'll get some raw feedback regarding your product which, from my perspective, will only improve it in either way.

Do check it out as it is a really handy feature. You've got two great guides here[2][3].

The tool itself is already quite handy, but I wonder if UPS has also a policy similar to Amazon regarding foreign shipping. In Amazon they'll estimate how much you'll pay in customs and bill you right at the checkout - if it ends up being less they return the money to you but if it ends being more than they initially estimated they'll cover the difference. Is this how UPS model works as well?

Also, regarding production costs, could you shed a light on what was a big challenge while building Batch 2 as a product? Did you encountered some problems in a specific part/supplier? How are the suppliers picked? Do you have some kind of evaluation methodologies that you apply in your selection process?

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[1]https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/satochip-hardware-wallet-on-smart-card-usbnfc-5181719
[2]https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/meritislife-how-to-be-notified-on-a-smartband-of-merits-and-mentions-5229697
[3]https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/telegram-yet-another-bitcointalk-notification-bot-merits-mentions-topics-5248878

Sounds great to me!

Passport Batch 2 at $199 and Passport 2 Lite with plastic parts at $150 and we have a deal!

I believe Email notifications only really work well for private messages (they should be very reliable for that, though), for anything else use Watchlist / Unread Replies / bots.

I think that would be more than fair price for Passport, especially when compared with hardware wallets from competition, Coldcard is from $149 to $199, Trezor is from $69 to $219, Ledger is from $85 to $300, Keystone from $119 to $169, etc.
However, I would really like to see Foundation offering several devices with different prices, so people could choose for themselves what they want.

No problem, we finally managed to get in contact
Email notifications works fine for me for PM, but when someone mentiones your name in post Telegram bot @BTTSuperNotifier_bot is working great.

Thanks, I'll check with my team, I really like the idea of setting up our own thread for announcements and discussion. We'll look into potential sponsorships as well.

I'll also check out the notifications bot, because I've been relying on email notifications and it seems like I've been missing a lot.


Thanks for the feedback! I think we just need to ramp up and have higher volumes before considering a separate distribution center. But it's definitely something we'd want in the future.

One thing we've done in the last ~6 months is enable better import tax estimates when purchasing directly from us. For example, plugging in a random address in Portugal, it tells the customer that estimated taxes and duties will be $71.21 if shipping via UPS Worldwide Saver (in addition to shipping cost). It's just an estimate, but at least it's better than blindly ordering direct from us and getting hit with a large unexpected import tax bill.

I think we can, in general, reduce Passport's price over time as we scale production. Increased volume will mean lower costs, and we can pass those savings to our customers.


My preference for now would be to drive down costs via higher volumes and manufacturing optimizations, as opposed to releasing a new low-end device (at least in near term). I'd love to get Passport's price point to $199.


Sorry dkbit98, the email notifications on BitcoinTalk are pretty bad, I will just keep it open in a tab in my browser and check frequently. You guys have a great community here, hoping to participate in more discussions.

Available how exactly?
I sent you personal message in forum more than two days ago and I still didn't receive any reply... maybe you didn't check your inbox

Like RickDeckard said before me, it would be a good idea to have official Passport distribution center in Europe, or have more options for resellers.
I can't wait to see what is your next device going to look like, as response to Cooldcard Q1 and many others upcoming hardware wallets like Keystone Gen2, new Trezor with secure element, 1inch wallet, and lets' not forget Block wallet by Jack Dorsey.

Do keep in mind that exporting stuff costs money, too and European shops generally show prices with VAT included, whereas in the US it is added at checkout. By adding an approximate EU VAT rate of around 20% we get about 290€ and adding import taxes we get suspiciously close to that price of 350€.
Although I do agree that 350€ or $ is a lot of money. I already suggested that maybe they could make a 'light' version of the batch 2, using the exact same hardware and software (no additional R&D costs) and further reduce costs through cheaper materials (no metal parts, just all plastic). That should allow them to drop the price drastically, especially since a device at half the cost opens a much wider market. I don't really see why not to make a cheaper Passport.

Thank you for coming here once again Zack! As someone who likes the whole concept of your product, could you share some details/road ahead regarding selling directly to consumers in Europe? Currently, according to one of your resellers[1], the price for a Batch 2 devices is 350 €[2] which makes a high barrier for entrance for users that may even like the product but the price is outside what they would like to spend on such device when they can, for example, buy a Trezor Model T for ~ 210 € - this difference is particularly important in the times that we currently face with high inflation and extreme energy prices in Europe.

The current price in USA for the device is $249 which translates to ~ 241 €. Considering your business model, I don't see it possible to happen in a foreseeable future to have two parallel assembly factories in both USA and Europe so that you could try to decrease the price between each regional area. However, I would like to ask if there are any plans to have a fulfillment center in Europe that could allow you to ship directly to EU customers. This is a similar approach taken from Trezor[5] - and Europe based company - where they have a fulfillment center in USA that allows them to ship their products directly to consumers (of course they still have resellers[6]) but I think that having a fulfillment center in Europe would contribute to have a smaller difference between USD and EUR price.

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[1]https://foundationdevices.com/resellers/
[2]https://copiaro.de/en/product/passport-hardware-wallet-batch2/
[3]https://trezor.io/support/a/where-do-you-ship-from
[4]https://foundationdevices.com/
[5]https://trezor.io/support/a/where-do-you-ship-from
[6]https://trezor.io/resellers

Thanks for the heads-up! I will try it as soon as possible and see if there are any noticeable changes from the beta version I had tried. However, that was already miles better than 2.0.4, as posted above.

Having some presence on Bitcointalk is definitely something I'd recommend to Foundation Devices. You could also create your own thread in this subforum (like Tibu is doing for his Satochip wallet) for announcements, updates and whatnot. But feel free to just keep posting here, if you prefer that.

I'm sure there are also ways to contribute e.g. as a sponsor for larger forum events like Bitcointalk Community Awards and similar to get more forum member hands on Passports and maybe more discussion and feedback..

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Instead of being available for 24h, I recommend setting up something like LoyceV's notification bot or the Telegram bot linked there. Then you can have a look at your notification page from time to time and see if you got mentioned somewhere.

Hi all! Firmware v2.0.5 has been released with dramatically improved QR code scanning. Learn more on our blog:

https://foundationdevices.com/2023/02/passport-version-2-0-5-is-now-live/

I'll make myself available over the next 24 hours to answer any questions you have about Passport! Thank you n0nce for the amazing detailed review. I'll also do my best to spend more time monitoring this thread and on BitcoinTalk in general.

Update time! I installed the v2.0.5 beta today and I'm pleased to announce that the camera issue is essentially fixed. From their release notes:


I still have the feeling that the original Founders Edition was a tiny bit faster; it actually surprised me when I first tried it. Barely had moved the device towards my screen and it had already registered (or that's what it felt like).

It's pretty hard to compare these side-by-side (I tried), but what they settled on now is absolutely usable, even with my (deliberately bad for these tests) lighting conditions, in which I had massive issues before (meanwhile others / myself when in a better light had none).