Topic: Foundation Passport Official Thread - page 6. (Read 6626 times)

Miniscript adoption is definitely something we're keeping a close eye on, and something we want to implement down the line but is quite complex to do it properly, especially from a UX perspective. Definitely on our radar but no firm implementation date to share at this point!

I was actually thinking in interacting between making the code on a laptop and then use a microSD card and to also register the descriptors on the device. The implementations of miniscript that I have seen seem to involve a 3rd party entity as such is the case between BitBox and Liana[1], but I suppose that there could also be a way to make that operation without that 3rd party?

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[1]https://bitbox.swiss/blog/exploring-bitcoin-miniscript-with-liana-and-the-bitbox02/

I'm curious to know how would a user create miniscripts inside the Passport though. Would they just import them by QR code, since typing them by a keyboard of sorts is out of the question?

Also the miniscript could get quite long if many constants are being used, which would make the QR code really big - and maybe require an extremely large QR code in some cases - so what to do about that?

@foundationdvcs : While in another discussion with other users[1] something struck me that wasn't asked before - is Foundation planning to release support for miniscript? It would be great if we could use Passport with miniscript[2] to create custom spending conditions on some address[3].

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[1]https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/--5492618
[2]https://bitcoinerlab.com/guides/miniscript-vault
[3]https://bitcoin.design/guide/how-it-works/custom-spending-conditions/

From a business perspective, assuming you've got a established business unit, it makes sense in the long term (especially considering that clients will probably prefer buying directly from the source with the least amount of extra fees). By shipping from USA to Europe what usually happens is that, like you said, on top of the shipping you also end up paying the customs and tax on your country, which usually just blows the price out of proportion.
But there are. For example, if you check Trezor FAQ[1] you'll see that they have a local hub in the USA (and SatoshiLabs Group, where Trezor belongs to, has their HQ in Czech Republic[2]):
The same can be said from Ledger[3]:
I reckon that it is not fair comparing the size of these companies with Foundation, but if Foundation eventually devices to have a hub of their own in Europe I will assume that it is good news - it means that their company has matured enough to the point that they are now able to withstand costs in another continent while still being financially viable.

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[1]https://trezor.io/faqs
[2]https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/satoshilabs
[3]https://support.ledger.com/hc/en-us/articles/4403006133393-Where-are-orders-shipped-from?support=true

I know about several good resellers for Passport devices that are located in Europe.
Passport device is more expensive when ordered from one of this resellers compared to price on website, but at least you don't have to wait for delivery and import customs charges from US.
And so far I didn't see any other hardware wallet manufacturers having ''hubs'' in different countries.

We have definitely explored this in the past, but as @Pmalek mentioned it wouldn't reduce costs very much. We do have a European distributor who imports in bulk and supplies smaller resellers to bring down costs as much as we can, but international customs are still just insane. We have, however, been able to greatly reduce our shipping rates internationally recently so we can at least take some cost off for the end-user there.

Having a distribution centre in Europe would be cool for a company that produces devices like this one. But I don't think it's going to do much in terms of the price. Unless they also create a production and assembly line in the EU. If not, they still have to import their products from the States and pay the required taxes and fees, with the end-users feeling it at the price they will be paying in the end.

@foundationdvcs : It has been a while so I wonder - Any plans on creating a European hub of Foundation to sell your current hardware offering (and perhaps setup shop for the future devices?). Probably this isn't on the list as a big priority considering the amount of resellers that you have but perhaps long term could be something that it could be interesting to explore?

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It's not about quantity.  Clearly, you're not familiar with BIP85, so you're not really understanding the conversation we're having or the use case.  That's fine, since BIP85 isn't something you have experience with or use for.  No worries.

Nice.

Generate on the device  let's say 1000 (or whatever number you want)  SEEDs and have 1000 x 20 = 20 000 child-seeds. Or reset device and generate child-seeds each time with the same Master SEED but starting with different BIP 85 index.  But I don't think that  personally you need such quantity.

Whether you  like it or not Passport device is limited in number of child-seeds it may generate.


Nice, then look for other device. Passport is not for you.


Probably yes, but the niche is extremely narrow (currently one can count on fingers those  companies that use BTC in their accountance, probably they are  non-existent) . Foundation is relatively young to encompass all market and pay attention to its miserable part .

Yeah, I just made up that scenario as an example, but it's not what I'm using BIP85 for.

I think BIP85 is a very powerful tool that more advanced Bitcoiners who do self custody will find great use for in years to come because it provides an extra layer of backups for everything.  Lost a key?  Regenerate it.  Want to confirm a word in a seed?  "Is that an l?"  Regenerate it.  It's so easy.

For the average Bitcoiner doing self custody, the way the Foundation Passport does BIP85 is probably very useful, and I'd definitely recommend Passport users check it out.  But for my needs, I think it's not what I'm looking for.  I want quick access to plaintext child seed QRs.  I don't want to save the child seeds since I won't actually be using this hardware wallet as my hardware wallet (and also because I use my hardware wallet 100% stateless).  For me, this is about recovery from a parent seed, not general use of the child seed itself.

I'm starting to think about forking SeedSigner (or doing a DIY Raspberry Pi app) to make a Quick BIP85 device that does nothing but scan a parent seed, ask for a BIP85 index number and seed length to generate, & then display the child seed words followed by a plaintext QR.  That'd be a huge project for me, and it's beyond my current abilities, but it might be something to work on for the fun of it.

The company example sounds like a potentially good example if the accounts of the employees were to be for company expenses rather than for the individual as an end payment.  The employee might be able to spend from such company owned accounts within parameters outlined by the company, and perhaps from time to time the account receives payments from the company or even might receive payments from customers, and maybe the account has to be replenished from time to time by the company or maybe even have some payments back to the company from time to time, but also the company has the ability to remove the authorization from the employee or to recover the account if the employee were to have had lost access to the account or if the company chooses to remove the employee's access to the account.  One account could also be accessible by several authorized employees, such as a departmental account that is ultimately owned by the company but largely managed by authorized employees within the department.

You're still not seeing it.

BIP85 turns a parent seed into the ultimate backup of anything you'd want to secure using words, not just Bitcoin.  I use a 12 word child seed as a decryption key.  12 words means it's unhackable, and being a child seed means it can easily be regenerated from the parent seed.  So, there's no danger of losing the decryption key since it can be regenerated by the parent.

That's why I'm trying to find a hardware wallet that makes generating BIP85 child seeds quick and convenient.


I have no interest in saving them on the device.  In fact, I specifically do not want to save them on a device.  I just want to be able to quickly regenerate a child seed if I need it.

Sorry if I was rude before, but being asked "Why would you need that?" is like asking "Who needs deterministic wallets?  Isn't that overkill?" or "Why have a seed use words instead of numbers?  Who needs that?"

I've become a huge advocate of using BIP85.  There's no such thing as a lost multisig key if they were generated by a parent seed since the parent can easily regenerate every child seed.  All you need to know is the index number to get a key back.  It's a brilliant system.  I'm actually surprised BIP85 hasn't caught on among more experienced Bitcoiners.


Can you explain the 20 key limitation?  I assume that's a limitation of your device, since BIP85 can generate millions of child seeds - not that I need millions.  I'm just trying to understand the device since it requires extra steps such as saving and naming the child, for example.  I don't need to create the child seeds.  I did that last year.  I'm looking for the easiest way to regenerate one of them if it's lost, or if I'm traveling and need one for whatever reason.  In a perfect world, a device would just ask for the BIP85 index # and the child seed length, then show me the words so I can confirm it's correct, then give me the QR code to scan with my main hardware wallet (which doesn't do BIP85).

I don't have a high number of child seeds yet, but I do already have more then ten, and I assume I'll have more in the future since a child seed is backed up by the parent seed, which means so long as the parent seed is securely backed up (paper, metal, safe deposit box, etc), child seeds become a foolproof way to avoid loss.  Lose a key?  Regenerate it using the parent seed.

BIP85 makes managing seeds so easy, in terms of keeping track of which is for what.

We absolutely do implement BIP 85 correctly, and allow you to create a child key at any index. We intentionally start at index #0 to ensure that users who don't have complex requirements could easily find their child keys in the future if they didn't note them down somewhere by just starting at index #0 and iterating through them until they find the right one. Hopefully users would note down their index #s or use encrypted MicroSD backups to prevent needing to do that, though!


It does show the exact steps in both text and a GIF, but I'll detail them here for you as well  

Creating a new child key is as easy as New Key > 12/24/Nostr > Choose index (defaults to starting at #0, can be set to anything you'd like) > Set name > Done. If you want to then view the QR you simply select the key from the list in Key Manager > Export > Select Format (Words/Compact SeedQR/SeedQR/MicroSD) > Done. Just to be sure I explicitly setup a key at #105 to test this with no issues 

Click me for GIF!

All of this is 100% to BIP 85 spec, and if you have a specific need for abnormally high index #s you can do that, or if you have a need for an abnormally high number of keys you can do that (you can create 20 keys per master private key, so applying a passphrase allows for 20 more child keys).

If you have any more questions I'm happy to help Meuserna, but let's please keep the tone civil and be kind to all of those in here trying to help answer your questions!

Example with a parent is  the good one.

But could 20 different keys (SEEDs) be not enough to cover this ?

Definitely, If he has 21+ kids then Passport will not suite him, but, rhetoric question follows.  Who has such a gang?

Example with  a small company is bad in my view. Employee would not agree  to receive payment on wallets controlled by their boss.

For me Foundation's approach is the  wise one. There is no need to litter device's memory with the stuff that will be never used.

I'm not asking how to retrieve the named child seeds, or even how to name child seeds.  I'm asking how to generate a child seed in the first place.

It should be as simple as Choose Index Number.  Choose Seed Length.  Here are your words.  Display QR?  Done.

I own a Blockstream Jade, and the process of generating a child seed takes a bajillion clicks.  It works, but a process that should take less than 10 seconds instead takes a few minutes.


You can't be serious.  I can think of tons of examples.  Here's an easy one.  Let's say a parent sets up wallets for their kids, as college funds.  The dad uses his seed as a parent seed and uses the year each child was born as the child seed index number.

Here's another example.  Let's say you have a small company and some employees get an expense account.  Give each employee a child seed wallet using their employee number as the index number.

This is very standard stuff.  Advanced, sure, but standardized.  Just follow the BIP85 spec.  Limiting the millions of BIP85 index numbers to just 0 through 19 seems...  bizarre, arbitrary, and pointless.

Ah well.  I already have a hardware wallet that does BIP85.  I was just hoping to find one that does it well.  My search continues.

There is no need to do many clicks  to get QR for  relevant child seed.

When you engaged into  the child seed generation on Passport you name every  following child SEED (key) . The list of these names is available in  Key Manager Extension. Thus going through this list you need a couple of clicks to get the relevant QR.

Regarding  index number 105,  Passport is limited to generate 20 keys (child-seeds) and I'm not sure if it can start let's say from BIP85 index number 100 (to cover 105) rather than from number zero.

And I repeat my question again. Is there any sense  to be concerned of   #105 but not any other number in 0-19 interval?