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Topic: Garr255/Werner - Auction shilling - page 14. (Read 23119 times)

legendary
Activity: 1630
Merit: 1000
June 21, 2013, 09:45:27 AM
You still haven't answered the question. We all know why you haven't (because your answer would have to contradict the FUD you're spreading), but it is good to know that after promoting Pirateat40's massive fraud, you're still able to come back and continue promoting lies.

Hey, stop playing so fast & loose.  Pirate has never scammed anyone.  Did he specifically say that he wasn't going to run off with the money?  In an interwebz-binding e-greement?  No.  So stop slandering & spreading FUD!  U got pwnt by mah logics! Cool
Agreed, I think pirate should get the scammer tag removed as well. He never said he wasnt just gonna disappear so its okay
legendary
Activity: 1630
Merit: 1000
June 21, 2013, 09:44:38 AM
Look I don't even know Garr all I know is that he buys silver from me and seems like a good kid. Here are some things I want everyone to think of when posting here asking for all of the things like scam tags, untrustworthy etc.

1. Do not ask for forgiveness for yourself and justice for others. This kid (17 years old) has publicly apologized and offered up 10BTC to the winners of those auctions as a way of reimbursing them when if you look at the bidding thread there was active bidders all the way through not just Werner.

2. Would you want every mistake you've made since the time you were 17 years old labeled to your account and to follow you forever? From his history and cognitive it looks like he also has done some pretty solid things for people.

3. How many of you have ever sold an item on eBay? Now of those people how many of you have ever had a friend bid on your item to help give it a boost? I can assure you most have. It sucks and that's why I hate online auctions most of the time because I feel like this happens more often than not.

He got caught. We are a small community. It was wrong we all can see that. He has publicly apologized and has offered to reimburse this who involved. I think that speaks volumes for a kid his age.

well I guess point number 3 makes it clear I wont be bidding on any of your auctions
full member
Activity: 210
Merit: 100
June 21, 2013, 09:44:04 AM
You still haven't answered the question. We all know why you haven't (because your answer would have to contradict the FUD you're spreading), but it is good to know that after promoting Pirateat40's massive fraud, you're still able to come back and continue promoting lies.

Hey, stop playing so fast & loose.  Pirate has never scammed anyone.  Did he specifically say that he wasn't going to run off with the money?  In an interwebz-binding e-greement?  No.  So stop slandering & spreading FUD!  U got pwnt by mah logics! Cool
hero member
Activity: 980
Merit: 1001
June 21, 2013, 09:43:06 AM
Look I don't even know Garr all I know is that he buys silver from me and seems like a good kid. Here are some things I want everyone to think of when posting here asking for all of the things like scam tags, untrustworthy etc.

1. Do not ask for forgiveness for yourself and justice for others. This kid (17 years old) has publicly apologized and offered up 10BTC to the winners of those auctions as a way of reimbursing them when if you look at the bidding thread there was active bidders all the way through not just Werner.

2. Would you want every mistake you've made since the time you were 17 years old labeled to your account and to follow you forever? From his history and cognitive it looks like he also has done some pretty solid things for people.

3. How many of you have ever sold an item on eBay? Now of those people how many of you have ever had a friend bid on your item to help give it a boost? I can assure you most have. It sucks and that's why I hate online auctions most of the time because I feel like this happens more often than not.

He got caught. We are a small community. It was wrong we all can see that. He has publicly apologized and has offered to reimburse this who involved. I think that speaks volumes for a kid his age.
hero member
Activity: 588
Merit: 500
Hero VIP ultra official trusted super staff puppet
June 21, 2013, 09:41:52 AM
Cheesy Who could hope for mere? Cheesy  

Accounts being bought & sold in the open?  Meh. Not a scam, 'coz victim?
Sock accounts?  No way to prove!
A confirmed sock account?   STFU Legit!
A confirmed sock shilling?  STFU & GTFO  Legitimate sales tactic of friends respected users.
A confirmed sock with documented forum connections shilling & lying?  !11!!STFU!1!1  HE SAID HE'S SORRY, WTF dood!!!

 Huh Guess i've sopped up enough knowledge to start trading on this forum Cool <<< Gullible noob!  You ain't seen sheet!

Your comments reflect the way most of us here feel. The current state of things demand something where people have total control and can actually decide on their own. A system with paid moderators works against that by diluting the power of your votes for change.
newbie
Activity: 21
Merit: 0
June 21, 2013, 09:38:24 AM
Cheesy Who could hope for mere? Cheesy  

Accounts being bought & sold in the open?  Meh. Not a scam, 'coz victim?
Sock accounts?  No way to prove!
A confirmed sock account?   STFU Legit!
A confirmed sock shilling?  STFU & GTFO  Legitimate sales tactic of friends respected users.
A confirmed sock with documented forum connections shilling & lying?  !11!!STFU!1!1  HE SAID HE'S SORRY, WTF dood!!!

 Huh Guess i've sopped up enough knowledge to start trading on this forum Cool <<< Gullible noob!  You ain't seen sheet!

We need to start up Operation Ban Scammers.
full member
Activity: 210
Merit: 100
June 21, 2013, 09:37:28 AM
 Cheesy Who could hope for mere? Cheesy  

Accounts being bought & sold in the open?  Meh. Not a scam, 'coz victim?
Sock accounts?  No way to prove!
A confirmed sock account?   STFU Legit!
A confirmed sock shilling?  STFU & GTFO  Legitimate sales tactic of friends respected users.
A confirmed sock with documented forum connections shilling & lying?  !11!!STFU!1!1  HE SAID HE'S SORRY, WTF dood!!!

 Huh Guess i've sopped up enough knowledge to start trading on this forum Cool <<< Gullible noob!  You ain't seen sheet!


newbie
Activity: 21
Merit: 0
June 21, 2013, 09:32:40 AM
UN BELIEVE ABLE.

BAN MATTHEW NEVER RIGHT FOR TROLLING.

SCAMMER TAG GARR225
hero member
Activity: 980
Merit: 1001
June 21, 2013, 09:30:32 AM
Hi all,

First, I apologize for taking too long to attempt to resolve this situation. I've been extremely frustrated with myself all day. I have been regretting what I have done since the moment I did it.

I hereby confess to bidding up my own auctions using the "Werner" forum handle. This is despicable, I know. I did this out of pure greed. Scamming anyone was not the priority, getting a few extra measly bitcoins for Cognitive's auction was my goal. I have always acted in the best interest of Cognitive, because I know, believe, and practice my fiduciary duty which comes as a result of handling others' assets. I want everyone to know that I will continue doing my best to run the company, the same as I always have. My track record on the forum has been flawless before this incident, and that's what hurts me most. I'm disgusted with myself when people are questioning whether they can trust me now.

Although some may view this as a petty offence (as I did previously), I do not any longer. As an attempt to at least partially make up for my wrongdoing, I am offering each of the participants in the auction, starsoccer9 and Vezunchik, BTC5 of my own personal funds, which more than makes up for the financial loss due false bids in the auction. I realize that what I have done is unacceptable, and I do deeply regret it.

Being an optimist, I can't help but try to take something positive away from a given situation. I believe that because of this incident I will make an effort to be that much better of a person. Everyone who I have interacted with aside from these auction participants, and Josh Zerlan (Inaba), would agree with me when I tell you: I strive to be a person of high moral conduct.

I apologize to everyone for letting greed get in my way. I know trust takes ages to build, and a few posts to destroy. I hope that everyone will acknowledge my past, and see that I have never acted in an externally malicious way, and have always been transparent, friendly, and courteous in all of my dealings with fellow forum members. Know that I am a man of my word: when I say I will do something, I do it. I regret bidding up the auction greatly. Please know that I have never scammed anyone nor have I stolen anything. I have done tons (probably well over 100) transactions of physical items with users of this forum and not one has gone sour. In most of them the other party was the one who had to trust me.

Again, I sincerely regret what I have done and I apologize for doing it. The small sum of bitcoins I gained from this (until I pay the auction bidders back) was certainly not worth the tarnished reputation. Never again will I allow myself to do something so crooked.

Sincerely,
Garrett

Like I said in another post, I have had very positive dealings with you. People make mistakes. We are all human, and given your age and the way you are handling this situation I believe you are sincere and this will be a lesson learned.
Hopefully other will also see this as a sincere attempt to resolve this situation. We have all done stupid things growing up.

sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 250
June 21, 2013, 09:22:48 AM
Well one thing is clear from this thread. Greed trumps all.

What I find slightly amusing is that all of us keep supporting the tertiary actors by posing on their forum... in effect rewarding them regardless of their bad behavior... and then continue to expect better behavior than they've evidenced in the past.

I guess we're all fools.
legendary
Activity: 1630
Merit: 1000
June 21, 2013, 09:13:15 AM
When have I ever scammed anyone of anything?

You still haven't answered the question. We all know why you haven't (because your answer would have to contradict the FUD you're spreading), but it is good to know that after promoting Pirateat40's massive fraud, you're still able to come back and continue promoting lies.

Unless Matthew clearly said I plan to scam according to theymos then it wouldn't be okay. Since I am quite sure he didnt say that he doesnt deserve anytag.
hero member
Activity: 588
Merit: 500
Hero VIP ultra official trusted super staff puppet
June 21, 2013, 09:04:57 AM
When have I ever scammed anyone of anything?

You still haven't answered the question. We all know why you haven't (because your answer would have to contradict the FUD you're spreading), but it is good to know that after promoting Pirateat40's massive fraud, you're still able to come back and continue promoting lies.
legendary
Activity: 1554
Merit: 1000
June 21, 2013, 08:36:01 AM
Anybody else seeing the seeds of doubt causing a ripple effect here? Is this going to expand further into 'Shillgate', with some connected casualties falling from great heights?
Interesting times, when trust overall is being called into question.
hero member
Activity: 588
Merit: 500
Hero VIP ultra official trusted super staff puppet
June 21, 2013, 08:28:22 AM
forcing StarSoccer to bid BTC63

Did Gar255 put a gun to his head? No one forced the bidders to do anything.

Having an alt that artificially raises the bid price is similar to a secret reserve price in an auction. There's nothing inherently wrong with it except that Garr255 should have warned bidders that he might do it. I rank his actions there as "a bit shady," though he handled the fallout badly (due to inexperience, I suppose).

In any case, alts aren't against forum rules, and scammer tags are typically only given when an explicit agreement is broken. Garr255 never promised not to bid on his own auctions. He never even promised to honor the results of the auctions. Without contracts that say otherwise, auctions are only devices to assist in price negotiations.

I've officially lost all remaining respect for you. You have absolutely no integrity and do not deserve to be our admin. Despite having made serious misjudgments in the past, I have more integrity in my pinky than you'll apparently ever have. Give me my 10 BTC donation back immediately you hypocritical sleezeball. I don't support scams and thus I can't support you.

Matthew has scammed more than once and has been prevented many times.

When have I ever scammed anyone of anything? Having a scammer tag doesn't mean you're a scammer. Else, why would Theymos make a "scammer" a moderator? Why would he remove said tag later instead of trumpet to the community to "stay away danger!". Garr255 did even worse than I did, because I wasn't even attempting at personal gain, just pissing a select group of people off (which obviously succeeded because you're *still* butthurt).

I'm also very pissed off as a significant investor but that does not mean what he did was or was not a scam.

Well, I can't say that comes as a surprise. People on this forum defending corruption and hypocrisy because they invested too heavily into it.
hero member
Activity: 557
Merit: 500
June 21, 2013, 07:21:44 AM
forcing StarSoccer to bid BTC63

Did Gar255 put a gun to his head? No one forced the bidders to do anything.

Having an alt that artificially raises the bid price is similar to a secret reserve price in an auction. There's nothing inherently wrong with it except that Garr255 should have warned bidders that he might do it. I rank his actions there as "a bit shady," though he handled the fallout badly (due to inexperience, I suppose).

In any case, alts aren't against forum rules, and scammer tags are typically only given when an explicit agreement is broken. Garr255 never promised not to bid on his own auctions. He never even promised to honor the results of the auctions. Without contracts, auctions are only devices to assist in price negotiations.

Garr was selling the units for Cog, who is to say Warner would not have kept the units for himself? How do we know they were a fake bid?

However yes, Garr should have been open about this, but clearly not a scam.


Goat's avatar quote:
Quote
BTC, LTC, AsicMiner and Cognitive!
I understand that you'd be a little biased towards the Garr255 situation. 
legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1018
June 21, 2013, 06:45:15 AM

I don't know if Garr lied in public (on the forum) about the account being his or not. If he did I does not look good.


Yes he did, more than once:

I can't believe what's happening here...

I did not bid up those auctions. I am not arguing the accusation that the werner account is under my control because I want to keep my BFL orders! Otherwise, believe me: I would be!

I'm having the ugly feeling Garr may be close to Theymos or other mods. Maybe they are friends in meatspace? I see a lot of indulgence.

I really don't want to beat on Garr, the mistake is not so huge and he is so young, but really puzzles me seeing his trust status so high, no tag of any kind for him, when he was just caught using shills to support his business ventures and artificially raise the price in his auctions, and then he lied to everybody until the evidence was too serious to deny the facts.

I have to say all this makes me a little sad, I've been investing a lot of time in these forums for the last months and I always had the impression that this was a fair and well balanced community, where mods were totally impartial and judged everyone by the same standards.
legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1018
June 21, 2013, 06:06:01 AM
Position is -if you shill will have your public image damaged, and that's all.

There's a thread going on with buying of forum accounts for god's sake.

The truth is that it is almost impossible to discover a shill bidder unless a the cheater makes a mistake (like Garr255 did by posting with his sockpuppet account by mistake).

If there's no incentive in being honest and ethical because unethical and dishonest behaviour is tolerated, then the honest folks with principles get ass-raped by the unethical guys doing their thing.

I strongly disagree on "shill bidding" being a "secret reserve", ebay for example forbids this and in my opinion they rightly do so.

Forum policy: No matter how many times you do this, you will never get a scammer tag unless you have an explicit agreement which says otherwise. Auctions are only devices to assist in price negotiations.

Personally: I might forgive someone if they do this kind of thing once, but probably not twice.


Clear enough.

I have to say I've been surprised by things going on the auctions subforums. We constantly have:

a) People pumping up price through PM that cannot be verified
b) Bidders that do not honor their bids
c) Auctioneers that did not set a reserve price and then decide not to honor winners because the price is not good enough for them.

I have to say that for me that's utterly amateurish and disappointing. I'd like to see some serious business going on, and not only jokes and scams. In this sense, I think the new trust system will help a lot. People can RATE other folks, and this is a huge improvement that also makes mod's life easier.

That said, I think a clear set of rules should be stickied to the auction subforums: for example, we should say that shill bidding is allowed. That not honoring the winner is OK unless the auctioneer signs a contract that obliges him to do so (which is kinda contradictory, because the whole point of an auction is to be binding, but I guess we have our very own system here). We should say that auctioneers have the right to constantly change their "reserve price", and that they can say they received any offer through private messages. And so on... I really think this will improve a lot the current auction subforum, so every interested part won't believe they are participating in a "real" auction, where a set of basic rules are implied (first of them is that the winner will be honored, if not, what kind of auction is this?), while on these forums ANY rule and condition has to be stated on beforehand, including: no shill bidding, honoring winners, no artificially pumping price up by "accepting PM offers", etc.

This will make people wary that ALL THE CONDITIONS must be stated in the OP.
legendary
Activity: 1630
Merit: 1000
June 21, 2013, 05:59:55 AM
forcing StarSoccer to bid BTC63

Did Gar255 put a gun to his head? No one forced the bidders to do anything.

Having an alt that artificially raises the bid price is similar to a secret reserve price in an auction. There's nothing inherently wrong with it except that Garr255 should have warned bidders that he might do it. I rank his actions there as "a bit shady," though he handled the fallout badly (due to inexperience, I suppose).

In any case, alts aren't against forum rules, and scammer tags are typically only given when an explicit agreement is broken. Garr255 never promised not to bid on his own auctions. He never even promised to honor the results of the auctions. Without contracts that say otherwise, auctions are only devices to assist in price negotiations.

I am not quite sure how you can justify bidding up your own auctions as an okay auction.  A secret reserve is 100% differnt as its public posted and will not change.

So because I say nothing it means its okay to do it?Personally anyone who runs an auction and doesnt go through with the auction if all the rules are followed for example a reserve price is met and He chooses to just not follow through I would mark down as untrustworthy and deserves the same thing Matt has under his name. It is a verbal agreement when you post rules in the auction that you plan to follow through with them. Otherwise your saying that I can post what ever I would like and not be held liable simply because I never said i wouldn't

In any case since you are going with the "He never said he wouldn't" I think any scammer who scammed should just get the tag removed, as he never said he wouldnt scam. So its okay
administrator
Activity: 5222
Merit: 13032
June 21, 2013, 05:53:33 AM
Forum policy: No matter how many times you do this, you will never get a scammer tag unless you have an explicit agreement which says otherwise. Auctions are only devices to assist in price negotiations.

Personally: I might forgive someone if they do this kind of thing once, but probably not twice.

Quote
Are you saying that you may create a sockpuppet to support your business ventures and artificially raise price in your auctions "accidentally"? Like it was an accident in the road, something you did not plan and "just happened"?

You can accidentally betray someone's trust if you misunderstand what their expectations are. If Garr255 thought that people generally had no problem with bidding via alts, the betrayal of trust would be accidental. This isn't the case here, but it's possible.
hero member
Activity: 980
Merit: 500
FREE $50 BONUS - STAKE - [click signature]
June 21, 2013, 05:47:59 AM
Position is -if you shill will have your public image damaged, and that's all.

There's a thread going on with buying of forum accounts for god's sake.
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