Garr255/Werner - Auction shilling - page 15.

Rampion

legendary

Activity: 1148

Merit: 1018

Quote from: theymos on June 21, 2013, 06:38:54 AM

Quote from: Kluge on June 21, 2013, 06:05:51 AM

Would you find it acceptable for yourself to bid up forum ad slots with socks?

Notice that I called it a bit shady. I wouldn't do it, and my trust in people will be reduced if I see them doing it. But it's not the end of the world.

It's not ethical to do this sort of thing because the participants in the auction expect you not to do it. By secretly acting contrary to their expectations, you're betraying their trust. But while it should happen very rarely, sometimes you get into situations like this accidentally or due to insufficient ethical consideration. It's something I can forgive fairly easily if it doesn't become a habit.

The preceding ethical analysis is irrelevant for forum administration, though. Scammer tags are given, in general, to people who break explicit agreements.

Sorry to insist Theymos, but I would like to really understand the logic.

Are you saying that you may create a sockpuppet to support your business ventures and artificially raise price in your auctions "accidentally"? Like it was an accident in the road, something you did not plan and "just happened"? Huh

THEN:

First time you shill bid, it's ok. Second time, not so well. Garr255 did it at least 3 times in 3 separate auctions.

So maybe you are implying that the first time you get caught shill bidding is OK, as it might be "accidental". Second time you get caught, is not forgivable any more.

I don't want to be a pain in the ass, I just want to know clearly what's the position of the forum so I can act accordingly.

theymos

administrator

Activity: 5222

Merit: 13032

Quote from: Kluge on June 21, 2013, 06:05:51 AM

Would you find it acceptable for yourself to bid up forum ad slots with socks?

Notice that I called it a bit shady. I wouldn't do it, and my trust in people will be reduced if I see them doing it. But it's not the end of the world.

It's not ethical to do this sort of thing because the participants in the auction expect you not to do it. By secretly acting contrary to their expectations, you're betraying their trust. But while it should happen very rarely, sometimes you get into situations like this accidentally or due to insufficient ethical consideration. It's something I can forgive fairly easily if it doesn't become a habit.

The preceding ethical analysis is irrelevant to forum administration, though. Scammer tags are given, in general, to people who break explicit agreements.

Rampion

legendary

Activity: 1148

Merit: 1018

Quote from: kibblesnbits on June 21, 2013, 06:33:47 AM

Quote

Having an alt that artificially raises the bid price is similar to a secret reserve price in an auction. There's nothing inherently wrong with it

Quote

Garr255 never promised not to bid on his own auctions. He never even promised to honor the results of the auctions. Without contracts that say otherwise, auctions are only devices to assist in price negotiations.

Then these quotes should be stickied at the top of the auction page. Better yet:

Bid here only to a maximum of what you are willing to spend. Auctioneers may opt to artificially inflate the price using alternate accounts if necessary. No one is putting a gun to your head to outbid said alternate accounts. Shilling/sock-puppeting is condoned and expected behavior. Bid accordingly.

I would request the above, if true, be stickied at the top of the auction page.

Well, it's true, we had confirmation from the forum admin.

So, +1 to the sticky.

kibblesnbits

hero member

Activity: 557

Merit: 500

Quote

Having an alt that artificially raises the bid price is similar to a secret reserve price in an auction. There's nothing inherently wrong with it

Quote

Garr255 never promised not to bid on his own auctions. He never even promised to honor the results of the auctions. Without contracts that say otherwise, auctions are only devices to assist in price negotiations.

Then these quotes should be stickied at the top of the auction page. Better yet:

Bid here only to a maximum of what you are willing to spend. Auctioneers may opt to artificially inflate the price using alternate accounts if necessary. No one is putting a gun to your head to outbid said alternate accounts. Shilling/sock-puppeting is condoned and expected behavior. Bid accordingly.

I would request the above, if true, be stickied at the top of the auction page.

Rampion

legendary

Activity: 1148

Merit: 1018

Quote from: ?? on ??

If Theymos used an alt to bid up the auction for ads, and then won and paid for them, I do not see how this is a scam.

Having more than one account is fine under the current rules of the forum.

Theymos was selling the ads for the forum, Garr was selling for Cognitive. Both socks of theymos and Garr could keep and use the products.

I don't even see how you guys think this is scamming.

What gets me pissed off is the fact Garr lied about it the account not being his. If you guys were trying to say he needs a tag like Matthew, than maybe, but scam? No way.

I have to disagree and I'd consider shill bidding a scam, but I acknowledge this can be discussed and I may be proven wrong. But, an untrustworthy tag has no discussion IMO, Garr255 proved clearly to be untrustworthy, unless of course Theymos decide that *HE* trusts Garr255 no matter he lied in fron to the whole community, so he decides not to apply any untrustworthy tag for him. At the end of the day is his forum, who is "officialy" trustworthy or untrustworthy depends on him, not on us, we can just make our own conclusion and act accordingly.

coinsquirrel

newbie

Activity: 27

Merit: 0

Quote from: theymos on June 21, 2013, 05:51:31 AM

Quote from: coinsquirrel on June 21, 2013, 05:27:19 AM

forcing StarSoccer to bid BTC63

Did Gar255 put a gun to his head? No one forced the bidders to do anything.

Having an alt that artificially raises the bid price is similar to a secret reserve price in an auction. There's nothing inherently wrong with it except that Garr255 should have warned bidders that he might do it. I rank his actions there as "a bit shady," though he handled the fallout badly (due to inexperience, I suppose).

In any case, alts aren't against forum rules, and scammer tags are typically only given when an explicit agreement is broken. Garr255 never promised not to bid on his own auctions. He never even promised to honor the results of the auctions. Without contracts that say otherwise, auctions are only devices to assist in price negotiations.

Obviously no one physically forced anyone's hand, but Garr certainly invalidated StarSoccer's previous bid, by bidding with his alternate ID. Thus, StarSoccer had no other choice but to increment his own bid, if he wanted to win the auction. Clearly Garr had no intention of winning his own auction, and he knew that if by placing his bid, he was forcing all bidders to bid at a new price point. I wasn't involved here, so I'll chalk this up to semantics, but we should really be asking the bidders themselves if they felt like they were forced into submitting higher bids.

I will full-heatedly dispute that this is in any way similar to a reserve price. Reserves are always set before bidding begins, before interest in the item can be gauged. Additionally, in any respectable auction system, the reserve price can not move, like Garr had the ability to do with his Werner account. He was giving everyone the impression that there was broader market interest in the item. This is what we call creating a bidding frenzy.

Rampion

legendary

Activity: 1148

Merit: 1018

Quote from: Kluge on June 21, 2013, 06:05:51 AM

Quote from: theymos on June 21, 2013, 05:51:31 AM

Quote from: coinsquirrel on June 21, 2013, 05:27:19 AM

forcing StarSoccer to bid BTC63

Did Gar255 put a gun to his head? No one forced the bidders to do anything.

Having an alt that artificially raises the bid price is similar to a secret reserve price in an auction. There's nothing inherently wrong with it except that Garr255 should have warned bidders that he might do it. I rank his actions there as "a bit shady," though he handled the fallout badly (due to inexperience, I suppose).

In any case, alts aren't against forum rules, and scammer tags are typically only given when an explicit agreement is broken. Garr255 never promised not to bid on his own auctions. He never even promised to honor the results of the auctions. Without contracts that say otherwise, auctions are only devices to assist in price negotiations.

Would you find it acceptable for yourself to bid up forum ad slots with socks?

I don't know why you are even asking, he was very clear, I will quote it for you:

Quote

Having an alt that artificially raises the bid price is similar to a secret reserve price in an auction. There's nothing inherently wrong with it

Quote

Garr255 never promised not to bid on his own auctions. He never even promised to honor the results of the auctions. Without contracts that say otherwise, auctions are only devices to assist in price negotiations.

Kluge

donator

Activity: 1218

Merit: 1015

Quote from: theymos on June 21, 2013, 05:51:31 AM

Quote from: coinsquirrel on June 21, 2013, 05:27:19 AM

forcing StarSoccer to bid BTC63

Did Gar255 put a gun to his head? No one forced the bidders to do anything.

Having an alt that artificially raises the bid price is similar to a secret reserve price in an auction. There's nothing inherently wrong with it except that Garr255 should have warned bidders that he might do it. I rank his actions there as "a bit shady," though he handled the fallout badly (due to inexperience, I suppose).

In any case, alts aren't against forum rules, and scammer tags are typically only given when an explicit agreement is broken. Garr255 never promised not to bid on his own auctions. He never even promised to honor the results of the auctions. Without contracts that say otherwise, auctions are only devices to assist in price negotiations.

Would you find it acceptable for yourself to bid up forum ad slots with socks? I now can't help but notice you've never explicitly stated you won't. Should it raise a red flag for me that you have not explicitly stated you won't bid up ad slots with socks, or would it be reasonable to assume you would not, considering your reputation? You've never explicitly stated (AFAIK) you will not sell our PMs to Google. Should I now assume it would be acceptable for you and Hearn to negotiate a deal where our "private information" is for sale to them?

Are you turning into a robot, theymos, where a binary answer is required for substantial moral judgment? How could you possibly reconcile your creativity with belief in binary morality? Have you become an adherent to iron-fisted order, seeking to ascend to the level of a robot slave? Or what - does calling an action "a bit shady" qualify as really pushing the limits of moral judgment on your part?

Are you really that cynical?

Rampion

legendary

Activity: 1148

Merit: 1018

Quote from: theymos on June 21, 2013, 05:51:31 AM

Quote from: coinsquirrel on June 21, 2013, 05:27:19 AM

forcing StarSoccer to bid BTC63

Did Gar255 put a gun to his head? No one forced the bidders to do anything.

Having an alt that artificially raises the bid price is similar to a secret reserve price in an auction. There's nothing inherently wrong with it except that Garr255 should have warned bidders that he might do it. I rank his actions there as "a bit shady," though he handled the fallout badly (due to inexperience, I suppose).

In any case, alts aren't against forum rules, and scammer tags are typically only given when an explicit agreement is broken. Garr255 never promised not to bid on his own auctions. He never even promised to honor the results of the auctions. Without contracts that say otherwise, auctions are only devices to assist in price negotiations.

OK, cool. So it's totally OK to have bidding sockpuppets on these forums. You still deserve the trust of the mods and admins if you have sockpuppets that pose as independent third parties that artificially inflate trust on your business ventures or raise the price of you auctions.

Just FYI, sockpuppeting is considered a serious issue when money of third parties is involved, just check wikipedia and you will see there were convictions and serious consecuences for many individuals engaged in sockpuppeting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sockpuppet_(Internet)

The fact that the forum allows sockpuppeting to artificially build trust when business transactions are involved or to inflate auction prices seems totally wrong to me, as it's a clear demonstration of untrustworthy behaviour in my book, I have to admit I'm utterly disappointed but it's your forum, so you make the rules and we either accept them or we leave. Duly noted.

kibblesnbits

hero member

Activity: 557

Merit: 500

Quote from: theymos on June 21, 2013, 05:51:31 AM

Quote from: coinsquirrel on June 21, 2013, 05:27:19 AM

forcing StarSoccer to bid BTC63

Did Gar255 put a gun to his head? No one forced the bidders to do anything.

Having an alt that artificially raises the bid price is similar to a secret reserve price in an auction. There's nothing inherently wrong with it except that Garr255 should have warned bidders that he might do it. I rank his actions there as "a bit shady," though he handled the fallout badly (due to inexperience, I suppose).

In any case, alts aren't against forum rules, and scammer tags are typically only given when an explicit agreement is broken. Garr255 never promised not to bid on his own auctions. He never even promised to honor the results of the auctions. Without contracts that say otherwise, auctions are only devices to assist in price negotiations.

Are you kidding me? It's not even close. I agree that "alts" are a part of forum life. This is fraud plain and simple. Anyways, the trust ratings are in place for a reason.

PrintMule

hero member

Activity: 980

Merit: 500

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Quote from: theymos on June 21, 2013, 05:51:31 AM

Quote from: coinsquirrel on June 21, 2013, 05:27:19 AM

forcing StarSoccer to bid BTC63

Did Gar255 put a gun to his head? No one forced the bidders to do anything.

Exactly as I was saying.

You people are so quick to join the witchhunt, no matter type of witch in question. To channel your own frustrations at something, or keeping heat away from yourselves, or following some paladin moral code, it does not matter. There's a dutch auction going on somewhere nearby on 1-3 avalons, and the poster did not lower the price for some time - and scam accusation immediately followed. Maybe he's spending some time away from pc or something?

gambitv

full member

Activity: 196

Merit: 100

theymos, you might want to go work for this company then. I think they welcome 'a bit shady' tactics.

Now I am even more suspicious of auctions on this forum. Off to bctc.co for me I think.

Quote from: theymos on June 21, 2013, 05:51:31 AM

Quote from: coinsquirrel on June 21, 2013, 05:27:19 AM

forcing StarSoccer to bid BTC63

Did Gar255 put a gun to his head? No one forced the bidders to do anything.

Having an alt that artificially raises the bid price is similar to a secret reserve price in an auction. There's nothing inherently wrong with it except that Garr255 should have warned bidders that he might do it. I rank his actions there as "a bit shady," though he handled the fallout badly (due to inexperience, I suppose).

In any case, alts aren't against forum rules, and scammer tags are typically only given when an explicit agreement is broken. Garr255 never promised not to bid on his own auctions. He never even promised to honor the results of the auctions. Without contracts that say otherwise, auctions are only devices to assist in price negotiations.

theymos

administrator

Activity: 5222

Merit: 13032

Quote from: coinsquirrel on June 21, 2013, 05:27:19 AM

forcing StarSoccer to bid BTC63

Did Gar255 put a gun to his head? No one forced the bidders to do anything.

Having an alt that artificially raises the bid price is similar to a secret reserve price in an auction. There's nothing inherently wrong with it except that Garr255 should have warned bidders that he might do it. I rank his actions there as "a bit shady," though he handled the fallout badly (due to inexperience, I suppose).

In any case, alts aren't against forum rules, and scammer tags are typically only given when an explicit agreement is broken. Garr255 never promised not to bid on his own auctions. He never even promised to honor the results of the auctions. Without contracts that say otherwise, auctions are only devices to assist in price negotiations.

kibblesnbits

hero member

Activity: 557

Merit: 500

Quote from: Garr255 on June 21, 2013, 04:38:56 AM

Rampion: I'm saddened that you don't think I'm worthy of participating in the community because of one blatantly stupid mistake. I've never done anything else wrong and do not plan to ever again.

Not one. Several. And while the apology is well worded, it only comes as a last resort. You were planning on challenging the accusation, remember? In my opinion, he's still not being honest. He wanted the extra coins for himself, not for any benefit to Cognitive (as he claimed). He's shown an ongoing pattern of conduct of lying and cheating other members of the forum, and only confessing when the amount of evidence was irrefutable.

Anyone really looking to forgive so quickly,read through all of Werners posts. All of them. It's an account of someone supposedly living in Germany. Its an entire second persona designed only to scam. The Werner account was specifically designed for this purpose, and it wasn't created only a few days ago.

I request Theymos take back the 250BTC ASAP. No telling what this kid's going to do once he gets a little college in him.

Kluge

donator

Activity: 1218

Merit: 1015

Quote from: coinsquirrel on June 21, 2013, 05:27:19 AM

Quote from: PrintMule on June 21, 2013, 05:20:32 AM

Wow, I never thought this forum of all other would have such attitude towards auction shilling.

Please explain to me - why the hell not? If I want to buy something, I know the price I'm willing to pay and that's it. If it goes up beyond that for a tiniest bit, in fair or fixed way - I will never buy it.

I admit, I'm new too this marketplace/economics atmosphere, but this seems logical enough for me.

The whole premise is that it didn't go above anyone's maximum. Let's pretend that StarSoccer was willing to bid BTC65. He was winning at BTC61. Garr comes along when there were no other bidders and bids BTC62, forcing StarSoccer to bid BTC63 (a difference of BTC2, had Garr not interfered).

Really, though, salesmen of every corporate business are encouraged to engage in much worse sales tactics on a daily basis. Yeah, we hold people we respect and trust to a higher level, but this isn't some damning, horrible evil we need to shoot him in the face for.

I get pissed off every time I have to talk to one of those shill "just following orders" shitheads at a corporate call center (speaking as someone who worked at one... for a day). I think we care, as a community, about this incident so much because we're more worried about a trend toward full-blown sociopathy, not over caring about this single incident in itself. I think we'd all prefer the status quo Garr we have faith in, than face a trend of evidence proving humanity as a stinking pile of filth, where everyone we trust has just managed to cover their tracks better.

That said, I've done worse with a Hell of a lot more and never caught even a small fraction of the flak Garr's caught over the last day. Maybe it's because Garr's held to a higher standard. - Or because I rapidly fluctuate between total indifference and full-blown outrage to a point where communicating with me is always futile. Huh

Rampion

legendary

Activity: 1148

Merit: 1018

Quote from: Garr255 on June 21, 2013, 05:04:22 AM

Quote from: malevolent on June 21, 2013, 04:59:56 AM

@Garr

There is nothing wrong with greed but there is a hell of a lot of wrong in being dishonest.

I concur 100%. Honesty is something that I, and most people (I would hope) value over everything else. You have no idea how disappointed I am in myself for proving that I can be dishonest.

Garr, I'm sorry, but didn't you know you were being dishonest while using you sockpuppet to pump up your auctions? So you are disappointed because "you proved" of being dishonest by being caught?

Frankly, I respect your apology, but what you are writing right now is not helping you at all.

Making a sockpuppet account to pump an auction is extremely easy. You register it, you connect through a VPN or Tor, and mods can't do sh*t about it. The only thing stopping people to do that is principles, honor and honesty. When you think about that kind of situation, you can feel in two ways: a) happy for being "so smart" to be able to scam people some money, or b) feel bad for cheating people. I think you really felt great using Werner, as you used it continuosly and without any remorse until you got caught.... You even used it to troll Josh and praise yourself just a few moments before being caught:

Quote from: Werner on June 19, 2013, 03:57:32 AM

I am laughing hysterically... This obscene adult is being shown up by a seventeen year old who runs his business flawlessly!!!

Frankly Garr, I gave up having faith on your honor and principles when you publicly humiliated yourself to get your miners. And now I gave up on your honesty too.

Of course people can change: you are extremely young, and I guess you will learn a lot from this. But the real lesson is that things have real consequences.

PrintMule

hero member

Activity: 980

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Quote from: jhansen858 on June 21, 2013, 05:26:26 AM

Why do an auction if your not going to let the best bid win? if your not happy with the price then next time just set an honest price you would like to get and stick to it.

For example eBay, while delivering greatest exposure, has quite flawed auction mechanics.
But selling at fixed price imposes harsher fees. Although when I think about it - I can just set higher price to cover those fees. That's something to think about.

Quote from: coinsquirrel on June 21, 2013, 05:27:19 AM

The whole premise is that it didn't go above anyone's maximum. Let's pretend that StarSoccer was willing to bid BTC65. He was winning at BTC61. Garr comes along when there were no other bidders and bids BTC62, forcing StarSoccer to bid BTC63 (a difference of BTC2, had Garr not interfered).

And then StarSoccer says - "screw you guys, I'm going home" in a Cartman's voice
And if all had stuck to that principle - Garr would have to PM StarSoccer with some lie like this "that last guy never paid, you interested" or in a direct way "i shilled, will you buy at your price -10 %?"

coinsquirrel

newbie

Activity: 27

Merit: 0

Quote from: PrintMule on June 21, 2013, 05:20:32 AM

Wow, I never thought this forum of all other would have such attitude towards auction shilling.

Please explain to me - why the hell not? If I want to buy something, I know the price I'm willing to pay and that's it. If it goes up beyond that for a tiniest bit, in fair or fixed way - I will never buy it.

I admit, I'm new too this marketplace/economics atmosphere, but this seems logical enough for me.

The whole premise is that it didn't go above anyone's maximum. Let's pretend that StarSoccer was willing to bid BTC65. He was winning at BTC61. Garr comes along when there were no other bidders and bids BTC62, forcing StarSoccer to bid BTC63 (a difference of BTC2, had Garr not interfered).

jhansen858

sr. member

Activity: 364

Merit: 250

Quote from: PrintMule on June 21, 2013, 05:20:32 AM

Wow, I never thought this forum of all other would have such attitude towards auction shilling.

Please explain to me - why the hell not? If I want to buy something, I know the price I'm willing to pay and that's it. If it goes up beyond that for a tiniest bit, in fair or fixed way - I will never buy it.

I admit, I'm new too this marketplace/economics atmosphere, but this seems logical enough for me.

Why do an auction if your not going to let the best bid win? if your not happy with the price then next time just set an honest price you would like to get and stick to it.

PrintMule

hero member

Activity: 980

Merit: 500

FREE $50 BONUS - STAKE - [click signature]

Wow, I never thought this forum of all other would have such attitude towards auction shilling.

Please explain to me - why the hell not? If I want to buy something, I know the price I'm willing to pay and that's it. If it goes up beyond that for a tiniest bit, in fair or fixed way - I will never buy it.

I admit, I'm new too this marketplace/economics atmosphere, but this seems logical enough for me.

Topic: Garr255/Werner - Auction shilling - page 15. (Read 23084 times)