Topic: [HAVELOCK] (HIF) Havelock Investments Fund - page 22. (Read 70071 times)

Seriously this all looks so weird, are we even dealing with the same people that were behind havelock before this panama business bought them? Or is this is just some sort of balant scam.

Oops, good point.
Thanks - editing.

Looks like Have will raise 625 today for 1.25%, when the first wave sells out. .

mmm, I think we already discussed the market cap is more like $60 million, not $440 million. But your argument still stands: how is this company possibly worth this many bitcoins?

I think it was Mircea Popescu who said there are two ways to value a company: how much money would it take to build the assets, and how much money would you get for selling all the assets. I don't think either of those valuations comes anywhere the millions they are asking here.

Let's put this in perspective:

1) "Israeli start-up Wix raises $127m in Nasdaq IPO"

Wix sets it's IPO at 700 million dollar market cap.

Wix is likely to have $150 million dollars in revenues- has 400 employees - and 40 million users

2) Havelock IPO's at 50 million dollar market cap (edited)

Havelock revenues ? Employees??? Users #???

Google "Build a Website" and you'll see Wix.

I was talking about the securities listed on Havelock.

at least 3/10, but we are offtopic with that here

at least 2/14 of HL listings are scams.

My point is that number of securities offered doesn't necessarily increase the value of the exchange.

I was just putting things into perspective.

well, 90% of cryptostocks listings are scam ;-)

I was trying to hold off from posting here, but must do so just on principle, to try to inform potential investors and put things in perspective.

I'm seeing a valuation of roughly BTC100000 = $50,000 million, with only a 6 page prospectus to back that up?

For starters, we know the market value of such an investment from Litecoinglobal. I believe it traded between 1-10mm USD roughly over the months, and I believe ended badly for all - and was probably way overvalued.

Considering the valuation, unprofessional and opaque prospectus, crappy projected PE/Ratio (17 is considered ok for a blue-chip company - not a micro cap), and dividend, with extremely high risks, I can't see how anyone can buy here.

First of all, it does not address fluctuations between btc/usd and how that will affect fees and volume.

"Our company is a Bitcoin based business, and since our Revenue and our Expenses are tied to Bitcoin we are unable to value it based on any Fiat/Bitcoin ratio."

This is bunk. Fluctuations will have an affect on your business. You are not bitcoin-only based, only mining is close that I know of. So, expenses/salaries will be the same if BTC = $2000? What if BTC = $20 again?  Look at Satoshi Dice - when bitcoin went 10x, did their volume hold in BTC? No, it remained stable in USD. Yet - you plan to pay expenses and salaries in bitcoin? Insane. BTC is not stable enough for this.

What is the point of listing 15 mm "restricted" units if they will not be sold?

Revenues:

So you're saying by end of next year, you'll have 150 funds on the site, paying $600+ USD in btc a month (at current rates) to be listed? I doubt that. What makes you think funds will continue to pay 1 btc as the price of btc continues to rise?

Let's say you increase number of paying funds to triple in a year (45) (btw why does it say 2012, and why are 50 funds paying 150 btc at the end of a year?) and earn ~360 btc in that way (seems high)

Lets say you triple trading volume through the next year, and thus manage to earn another ~830 btc in this way.

Finally, let's say these 30 new funds are able to raise 15,000 btc, earning you 750 btc (credit where credit is due, that is a smart business move on Havelock's part)

You've now managed to earn 1940 btc this year (barely equals your projected expenses in the form of "Office, Internet, Electrical, Law, Accounting, Compliance, and Miscellaneous") - My thoughts here, take from the example of other bitcoin companies, and pay for some of these unnecessary expenses out of your own 95% share of the dividends until you've exceeded your forecasts).

Even assuming zero expenses and high growth and these generous projections, not considering the high risk we've seen with Bitfunder, BTCT, etc, this values your company at somewhere around 5000-7000 btc, being generous across the board.

I think Havelock is a great platform, and I was excited to see the IVFO. Havelock is a great business, but this offers little upside for investors. What is driving ridiculous valuation, and sale? Speculators looking for a quick flip? Greed will burn everyone in the end when not used in moderation. MPEX trades at a similarly high valuation as far as I can tell, and I'm not sure why (haven't researched it, not gonna pay 30 btc to trade there)

Maybe I am wrong, we will see!

HIF - Accepting Donations!

how many are legit, what is their market cap, expected volume, etc?  Where is the evidence that these actually exist? As stated already, your current volume is miniscule, and almost an order of magnitude away from what you hope it will be in 2 months.

And where are these funds coming from? How many of these funds were listed on the now defunct sites?

Cryptostocks has a lot of funds listed, dozens in fact, far more than your site, and yet, no one would seriously value their operation at 100,000 BTC.

Will any of the IPO money go towards making your site as good as the exchanges that have closed?  When will it be brought up to the level of bitfunder and/or BTCT?

Aha, now there is some data we can use. (Havelock, can you confirm this number for the current trade volume?) So with a trade fee of .4%, that is 1.0 btc per day. That gives an income of 365 btc, (ignoring expenses at the moment) which would be a PE of 274.

Here is a suggestion: in the prospectus, put in three estimates of future performance, make the current estimate the "extremely good" projection, add two more projections with increasingly conservative estimates.


pascal257: remember that there is velocity to bitcoins, so the total trade volume can exceed the monetary base without any troubles. For example, if there is 1 coin in existence, I use it to buy your car and then you use it to buy my house, we have transacted 2 coins using a monetary base of just 1 coin.

BitFunder also had 39 funds listed. Most of them traded at sub BTC1 daily volume.

So you're basing all your numbers on these potential 50 funds. Is there any evidence that you can show us that these funds aren't made up?

As it states in our Prospectus, there are currently 50 Funds in the Pipeline for FY2014

Thank you,

Havelock Investments

The values seem highly over evaluated and unreasonable.

Let's take a look at your mine source of income: trading fess.

You're currently facing around BTC250/day in volume. In your prospectus you're projecting BTC2,000/day in volume for Q1 (that's in less than 2 months). That's more than 8-times of today's volume. What did you smoke to come to this evaluation?

Going further: Your projection for the whole year is BTC1,260,000. You actually think that 10% of all bitcoin currently in circulation will flow through your site?

But even granting that your projection is fair with net profits of BTC5,870 for the first year, an evaluation of nearly BTC100,000 is absolutely insane.

Well, they did take some time off offering new securities while they addressed the legal issues, and there have been a couple IPO recently, maybe Havelock could give us a statement on the actual number of securities in the pipeline to get listed? The prospectus should also include some actual current data about usage rates, current sales, and the recent performance of the site.

Still looks like the ipo is getting eaten up pretty quick

yeah, especially as they have never come close to those numbers nor provide any reason or methods on how they will achieve those levels of profit.  Do you see a flood of new securities lining up to sign up on HL?  I don't.

You still have to face the reality that bitcoin is a deflationary currency. It does not matter how you measure it: USD, EUR, gold, silver, man hours, acres of land in Manhattan; the value of a bitcoin is designed to go up over time. It may seem reasonable to charge 1 bitcoin for a listing now, but if the value of a bitcoin rises drastically then that amount will seem absurd to anybody considering listing on the exchange. So you will be forced to either lower the prices for your services or you will have less people utilize those services, either way we can expect the revenues measured in bitcoin to decrease over time.

This IPO seems overpriced to me. You can say you value the company at 100000 btc instead of 60000000 USD, but it means the same thing and is equally overvalued.

Is this a SatoshiDice style IPO where all the money generated from stock sales goes into the pockets of the current owners, or is this raising new capital for the company? What will the money be spent on?

Edit Wait, somebody said there are 100`000`000 units, but now I see there are 20`000`000 units listed, that is a big difference, could you clarify? Even with a market cap of only 20`000 btc, I think that is still overpriced.

And there seems to be some confusion over the price being listed as 0.005 vs 0.0005, there are still bid orders at 0.005, those people will be very sad to find out they bought at 10x the going price, maybe you should send out an email to all the people who received the announcement email stating that there was a mixup and they should change their bids?

Edit Edit: Ah, now I see, you are selling 25% of 20% of the company. Why not just say you are selling 5% of the company? Why make a distinction between the 80% you are not selling and the 15% which is not for sale?

What is the current sales volume per day for the site?

You expect to spend 300`000 USD each on law and accounting firms? You should really look into hiring your own lawyer and accountant and cut that cost way down!

If I am calculating right, using your numbers, you want a P/E of (100000/5870) = 17, like I said this seems a bit on the expensive side to me, for such a risky investment.

Is it customary for a multi-million dollar registered business to withhold information such as the names of its owners/directors?  Can we at least get a link to your Facebook page or YouTube account?
The only info provided is a phone number resolving in Minnesota, USA.  Is this also typical for Panamanian corporations?