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Topic: Health and Religion - page 2. (Read 210900 times)

legendary
Activity: 2702
Merit: 1468
December 09, 2019, 06:40:22 PM

How do you stop the expression of that selfish gene?  That is a very difficult task.

The only way to solve this evolutionary 'defect' is to develop artificial reproductive technology where we can control the outcome and produce individuals who would be incapable of being selfish. Eventually, 'messy, selfish biological offsprings' would die-off and you would have only selfless people who were manufactured to order.  Assuming the last 'selfish person' dies without abusing this technology, you'll end up with civilization that might be able to survive what is ahead of us.


How do you know selfishness/selflessness is the expression of a gene ?

People's personal traits seem to be genetic.  Why some siblings are born selfish (most of them) and some are selfless from the get-go?  They share the same environment so it is fair to assume that their selfishness or lack thereof is genetic.

Its a bit too empirical to be convincing for me Smiley

https://phys.org/news/2010-09-links-maternal-genes-selfish-behavior.html

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/are-people-naturally-inclined-to-cooperate-or-be-selfish/

https://news.nd.edu/news/new-studies-link-gene-to-selfish-behavior-in-kids-find-other-children-natural-givers/
full member
Activity: 322
Merit: 151
They're tactical
December 09, 2019, 09:53:39 AM

How do you stop the expression of that selfish gene?  That is a very difficult task.

The only way to solve this evolutionary 'defect' is to develop artificial reproductive technology where we can control the outcome and produce individuals who would be incapable of being selfish. Eventually, 'messy, selfish biological offsprings' would die-off and you would have only selfless people who were manufactured to order.  Assuming the last 'selfish person' dies without abusing this technology, you'll end up with civilization that might be able to survive what is ahead of us.


How do you know selfishness/selflessness is the expression of a gene ?

People's personal traits seem to be genetic.  Why some siblings are born selfish (most of them) and some are selfless from the get-go?  They share the same environment so it is fair to assume that their selfishness or lack thereof is genetic.

Its a bit too empirical to be convincing for me Smiley
legendary
Activity: 2702
Merit: 1468
December 09, 2019, 09:24:06 AM

How do you stop the expression of that selfish gene?  That is a very difficult task.

The only way to solve this evolutionary 'defect' is to develop artificial reproductive technology where we can control the outcome and produce individuals who would be incapable of being selfish. Eventually, 'messy, selfish biological offsprings' would die-off and you would have only selfless people who were manufactured to order.  Assuming the last 'selfish person' dies without abusing this technology, you'll end up with civilization that might be able to survive what is ahead of us.


How do you know selfishness/selflessness is the expression of a gene ?

People's personal traits seem to be genetic.  Why some siblings are born selfish (most of them) and some are selfless from the get-go?  They share the same environment so it is fair to assume that their selfishness or lack thereof is genetic.
full member
Activity: 322
Merit: 151
They're tactical
December 09, 2019, 05:44:34 AM
I understand the 2nd and 3rd points. High IQ people would likely be more conscientious and questioning of existing conventions which meant they're more likely to plan their families (and hence not have large ones) and be more secular. I don't understand why it would nudge them towards socialism though. Are you telling me the majority of people in Venezuela are above average IQ?

Anyway, don't let your religion kill you these holidays. Be easy on all the parties and on Christmas dinner.

Both the extremes of high and low IQ appear to nudge people towards socialism. Here is the original source for that point of discussion.

If that really is the case then that's good that both groups are outliers and the "normal people" outnumber them. I'm still a bit skeptical though, I think empathy/selfishness is a trait separate from intelligence.

For me intelligence is the same thing as empathy/consciousness. Its the ability to be aware of your surrounding. Some says the developpment of intelligence is more related to ability to live in large groups of individual rather than understanding physics with asperger syndrome.
full member
Activity: 322
Merit: 151
They're tactical
December 09, 2019, 05:38:00 AM

How do you stop the expression of that selfish gene?  That is a very difficult task.

The only way to solve this evolutionary 'defect' is to develop artificial reproductive technology where we can control the outcome and produce individuals who would be incapable of being selfish. Eventually, 'messy, selfish biological offsprings' would die-off and you would have only selfless people who were manufactured to order.  Assuming the last 'selfish person' dies without abusing this technology, you'll end up with civilization that might be able to survive what is ahead of us.


How do you know selfishness/selflessness is the expression of a gene ?
hero member
Activity: 1764
Merit: 584
December 09, 2019, 05:23:15 AM
I understand the 2nd and 3rd points. High IQ people would likely be more conscientious and questioning of existing conventions which meant they're more likely to plan their families (and hence not have large ones) and be more secular. I don't understand why it would nudge them towards socialism though. Are you telling me the majority of people in Venezuela are above average IQ?

Anyway, don't let your religion kill you these holidays. Be easy on all the parties and on Christmas dinner.

Both the extremes of high and low IQ appear to nudge people towards socialism. Here is the original source for that point of discussion.

If that really is the case then that's good that both groups are outliers and the "normal people" outnumber them. I'm still a bit skeptical though, I think empathy/selfishness is a trait separate from intelligence.
legendary
Activity: 2702
Merit: 1468
December 08, 2019, 04:09:59 PM
I understand the 2nd and 3rd points. High IQ people would likely be more conscientious and questioning of existing conventions which meant they're more likely to plan their families (and hence not have large ones) and be more secular. I don't understand why it would nudge them towards socialism though. Are you telling me the majority of people in Venezuela are above average IQ?

Anyway, don't let your religion kill you these holidays. Be easy on all the parties and on Christmas dinner.

Both the extremes of high and low IQ appear to nudge people towards socialism. Here is the original source for that point of discussion.

Disadvantages of high IQ
Mensa Magazine June 2009 pp 34-5
http://iqpersonalitygenius.blogspot.com/2012/08/disadvantages-of-high-iq.html?m=1
Quote from: Bruce Charlton

Sidis himself demonstrated, in exaggerated form, three traits which I put forward as being aspects of high IQ which are potentially disadvantageous: socialism, atheism and low-fertility.

1. Socialism

Higher IQ is probably associated with socialism via the personality trait called Openness-to-experience, which is modestly but significantly correlated with IQ. (To be more exact, left wing political views and voting patterns are characteristic of the highest and lowest IQ groups – the elite and the underclass - and right wingers tend to be in the mid-range.)

Openness summarizes such attributes as imagination, aesthetic sensitivity, preference for variety and intellectual curiosity – it also (among high IQ people in Western societies) predicts left-wing political views. Sidis was an extreme socialist, who received a prison sentence for participating in a May Day parade which became a riot (in the event, he ‘served his time’ in a sanatorium).

Now, of course, not everyone would agree that socialism is wrong (indeed, Mensa members reading this are quite likely to be socialists). But if socialism is regarded as a mistaken ideology (as I personally would argue!), then it could be said that high IQ people are more likely to be politically wrong. But whether correct or wrong, the point is that high IQ people do seem to have a built-in psychological and political bias.

The article contradicts itself. On one hand, it states that high IQ individuals are more likely to be selfish and then it says that they are more left-leaning.

People who support socialism (and its derivative communism) do it for two reasons: to get free stuff or are genuinely concerned about the well being of the less fortunate.

I suspect that some high IQ individuals are more empathetic (because they can foresee multitudes of outcomes and identify multiple root causes of the issues) to the less fortunate, that is why they lean towards socialism. And there are some high IQ individuals who see socialism as a power grab and are vehemently against it.

In either case, high IQ people generally see a couple of moves ahead of everybody else in this chess game called life.

IQ is irrelevant when it comes to politics, religion or lack thereof, IMHO. You don't need to be super smart to become an atheist.
You just need to be educated a little bit. Learn how to eliminate your personal bias, follow the evidence wherever it will lead you.

There are extremely stupid and smart atheists, socialists, and capitalists.   You can do data cherry-picking to get whatever outcome you desire.

But back to your original criticism of society with only high IQ individuals, I have to agree with you, a society with only high IQ individuals would not work with our current human condition.  They would just kill each other. You would end up with the same result if you had only dumb barbarians in society.  Without stratification, societies become unstable.  That is one aspect.  The root cause of the failure is actually the selfish gene that leads us to wars despite of attempted social engineering to prevent it (religion's love you neighbor or progressive thought, love everyone, etc.)

We have a selfish gene that helped us survive to this day.  And we needed some sort of social engineering to control it.  Religion, politics, tribalism, nationalism were tried in the past to achieve this function, with limited success.   Look at our inability to act in the face of a global climate change and destruction of ecosystems.

How do you stop the expression of that selfish gene?  That is a very difficult task.

The only way to solve this evolutionary 'defect' is to develop artificial reproductive technology where we can control the outcome and produce individuals who would be incapable of being selfish. Eventually, 'messy, selfish biological offsprings' would die-off and you would have only selfless people who were manufactured to order.  Assuming the last 'selfish person' dies without abusing this technology, you'll end up with civilization that might be able to survive what is ahead of us.
legendary
Activity: 1946
Merit: 1055
December 08, 2019, 08:02:38 AM
I understand the 2nd and 3rd points. High IQ people would likely be more conscientious and questioning of existing conventions which meant they're more likely to plan their families (and hence not have large ones) and be more secular. I don't understand why it would nudge them towards socialism though. Are you telling me the majority of people in Venezuela are above average IQ?

Anyway, don't let your religion kill you these holidays. Be easy on all the parties and on Christmas dinner.

Both the extremes of high and low IQ appear to nudge people towards socialism. Here is the original source for that point of discussion.

Disadvantages of high IQ
Mensa Magazine June 2009 pp 34-5
http://iqpersonalitygenius.blogspot.com/2012/08/disadvantages-of-high-iq.html?m=1
Quote from: Bruce Charlton

Sidis himself demonstrated, in exaggerated form, three traits which I put forward as being aspects of high IQ which are potentially disadvantageous: socialism, atheism and low-fertility.

1. Socialism

Higher IQ is probably associated with socialism via the personality trait called Openness-to-experience, which is modestly but significantly correlated with IQ. (To be more exact, left wing political views and voting patterns are characteristic of the highest and lowest IQ groups – the elite and the underclass - and right wingers tend to be in the mid-range.)

Openness summarizes such attributes as imagination, aesthetic sensitivity, preference for variety and intellectual curiosity – it also (among high IQ people in Western societies) predicts left-wing political views. Sidis was an extreme socialist, who received a prison sentence for participating in a May Day parade which became a riot (in the event, he ‘served his time’ in a sanatorium).

Now, of course, not everyone would agree that socialism is wrong (indeed, Mensa members reading this are quite likely to be socialists). But if socialism is regarded as a mistaken ideology (as I personally would argue!), then it could be said that high IQ people are more likely to be politically wrong. But whether correct or wrong, the point is that high IQ people do seem to have a built-in psychological and political bias.
full member
Activity: 322
Merit: 151
They're tactical
December 08, 2019, 05:47:36 AM


Fertilized eggs are not beings, never mind human beings.

Ontologically speaking even a stone is a being  Cheesy

So now we play with words.

You know what I meant, a sentient being, not that it merely exists.

Words are important Smiley

Edelman and the likes show that its not that easy to know where sentience and consciousness really starts or ends.

At which point you consider a cell or a group of cell is sentient or not ?

It is hard to determine exactly when this happens as it is a cumulative process, and it is dependent on the environment and genetics.
It is also species-dependent.

To be aware of your environment you need some sort of complex brain.  In the case of a human pregnancy, I am sure that in most cases, a viable fetus is a sentient being.

Consciousness is a result of your brain processing all the inputs, current and past.  When you deprive your brain of oxygen, it slowly dies, when all cells die and the RNA/DNA in your brain cells fragments, there is no going back, your brain is dead forever, and your consciousness ends forever.  

The claim made earlier in this thread that a fertilized egg is a human being is so ridiculous that it blows my mind how people can be so dogmatic.

I only entertained it to lead them out of their logical fallacy.

Its not a very good answer, edelman first got a nobel prize studying imune system, and in itself its aware of its environnement, able to have memory, detect infectious agent / toxins, albeit not being directly connected to the central nervous system.

If you follow edelman boostrap theory with the reentrant connection and different level of consciousness, it show higher cognitive function are still heavily dependant on feedback from physiology. Essentially in this theory what drive the developpment of higher cognitive function is fitting physiological input, and physiology depend on chemical interaction and physical constraint etc

Even monocellular organism can display a form of sentience, and awareness of environnement with "intelligent" reaction to promote its survival and reproduction.

Just throwing this also as "food for thought"

https://www.quantamagazine.org/choosy-eggs-may-pick-sperm-for-their-genes-defying-mendels-law-20171115/



Joe Nadeau, principal scientist at the Pacific Northwest Research Institute, is challenging this dogma. Random fertilization should lead to specific ratios of gene combinations in offspring, but Nadeau has found two examples just from his own lab that indicate fertilization can be far from random: Certain pairings of gamete genes are much more likely than others. After ruling out obvious alternative explanations, he could only conclude that fertilization wasn’t random at all.

“It’s the gamete equivalent of choosing a partner,” Nadeau said.

His hypothesis – that the egg could woo sperm with specific genes and vice versa – is part of a growing realization in biology that the egg is not the submissive, docile cell that scientists long thought it was. Instead, researchers now see the egg as an equal and active player in reproduction, adding layers of evolutionary control and selection to one of the most important processes in life.




Its really not simple to answer that.

Well its clear we dont observe the manifestation of consciousness outside of a body, but in itself it also its hard To say where sentience really start, descartes tried to find this "seat of reasonning", which he located in the pineal gland, but now we know this to be false, and we still dont really know which organ or which part of the brain really make us sentient, if Its located in the brain at all.

For me from the moment there is a will to survive and grow/reproduce it imply a form of sentience.
hero member
Activity: 1764
Merit: 584
December 08, 2019, 02:28:38 AM
I understand the 2nd and 3rd points. High IQ people would likely be more conscientious and questioning of existing conventions which meant they're more likely to plan their families (and hence not have large ones) and be more secular. I don't understand why it would nudge them towards socialism though. Are you telling me the majority of people in Venezuela are above average IQ?

Anyway, don't let your religion kill you these holidays. Be easy on all the parties and on Christmas dinner.
legendary
Activity: 1946
Merit: 1055
December 08, 2019, 01:21:25 AM

The scientific method is objective.  This is the best epistemic tool we have to discover what is true and what is false.
...  
Morality aside, I am not sure we'll ever move up on the Kardashev scale. Unless we drop the ancient myths and embrace science and technology.  You are an MD and you are against stem cell research, a case in point.  Imagine what all other less educated simpletons think
of science.

For the record I am not opposed to stem cell research in general. I am opposed to human embryonic stem cell research for reasons we have discussed ad infinitum.

The scientific method can only tell you what you can do. It will never tell you what you should do. You want to advance civilization on the Kardashev scale. Ok why do you want to do that?  This is your judgement of our species.

Me, me, me. Humanity is a plague.

I think you hit the nail on the head with this quote describing both the problem and the source of the problem which is not a lack of science but a lack of selflessness. There certainly is goodness in humanity worth preserving yet it is not at all unreasonable to describe us as you do.

Technological progress up the Kardashev scale does nothing to solve the problem. In fact it makes the problem worse by spreading it out farther and giving us more power to use unwisely. Transforming us from a plague upon the earth into an eternal plague upon the universe does not strike me as an admirable purpose.

Our purpose must be something more then simple propagation or genetic success as that road is clearly a dead end. The writing is already on the wall that our technological progress will soon obsolete our genetics.

Reproductive strategy is likely to become essentially irrelevant for humanity, possibly within our lifetimes. It seems inevitable that our existing biological bodies will give way to different forms that will carry us off-planet. At that point, allowing and enabling all individuals to thrive in a constructive environment becomes paramount. What then is the protocol that keeps that freedom from becoming destructive? Of course, my thinking is that the protocol is outlined in the Christian bible.

The only solution to the problem of humanity is for us all to strive for selflessness which also requires us to be superrational. Our species is very bad at that.

See: Superrationality
and
See: Multiverse Wide Cooperation

Religion is the only thing capable of rectifying mankind. It is also the only force that can somewhat mitigate our selfishness problem on this earth.
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
December 07, 2019, 08:59:51 PM
Where's af_newbie?

Oh, his mom aborted him.

Cool
legendary
Activity: 2702
Merit: 1468
December 07, 2019, 07:23:45 PM

Truth is not a popularity vote.

It does not matter how many people are for it or against it.  

Hey we agree on something for once. I am with you on this one something is true or false moral or immoral inherently and objectivity and it really does not matter if it is a majority or a minority that is able see to understand that truth.

However, I am surprised to see this line argument from you. It was not that long ago when you said this.

morality is relative and is not absolute.

So are you a believer now in objective truth and objective morality?


The scientific method is objective.  This is the best epistemic tool we have to discover what is true and what is false.
Subjective opinions of minority or majority are just that, subjective, and can be dismissed if they cannot be validated objectively.

Morality is temporal and is cultural.  We have plenty of evidence to support this fact.
We strive to improve our morality to cause the least harm. 

Morality aside, I am not sure we'll ever move up on the Kardashev scale.  Unless we drop the ancient myths and embrace science and technology.  You are an MD and you are against stem cell research, a case in point.  Imagine what all other less educated simpletons think
of science. The majority of people do not even understand basic concepts (BADecker etc.).  Look at the Flat Earth 'syndrome'. The Internet is a two-edge sword I guess.

Another problem I see is rampant nationalism, political tribalism, and remnants of ancient myths that will slow us down in the best case, or completely wipe out human species in the worst case.

The biggest issue is our exponential human population growth, but nobody wants to talk about that. 
We may just outbreed ourselves into another population bottleneck.
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
December 07, 2019, 05:33:53 PM

Truth is not a popularity vote.

It does not matter how many people are for it or against it.  

Hey we agree on something for once. I am with you on this one something is true or false moral or immoral inherently and objectivity and it really does not matter if it is a majority or a minority that is able see to understand that truth.

However, I am surprised to see this line argument from you. It was not that long ago when you said this.

morality is relative and is not absolute.

So are you a believer now in objective truth and objective morality?

...
Nature is teeming with life.  We grow life in factories just to kill it at a tender age.  We grow life only to cut it just when the seeds mature. We spray chemicals with no end to kill animals and ourselves.

People who scream they are "pro-life" have no problem ordering a steak or veal, eat eggs and whole animals or use services of the in-vitro clinic. It is really comical.
...
And the same parrots have no problem going to war and kill children, as long as they are not from their tribe.
...
Crimes against humanity? LOL.  What about human crimes against nature?  They are not important in your book, I guess.
Me, me, me. Humanity is a plague.

Sounds like you have figured out that mandkind is fallen. We indeed commit many crimes against nature which we have stewardship over. However, we will never be able to stop these crimes unless we first stop committing crimes against ourselves.

Romans 5:12-14
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—
To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command.


Revelations 12:12
woe to the earth and the sea...


... 'cause the Devil has gone down to you.     Cool
legendary
Activity: 1946
Merit: 1055
December 07, 2019, 05:30:58 PM

Truth is not a popularity vote.

It does not matter how many people are for it or against it.  

Hey we agree on something for once. I am with you on this one something is true or false moral or immoral inherently and objectivity and it really does not matter if it is a majority or a minority that is able see to understand that truth.

However, I am surprised to see this line argument from you. It was not that long ago when you said this.

morality is relative and is not absolute.

So are you a believer now in objective truth and objective morality?

...
Nature is teeming with life.  We grow life in factories just to kill it at a tender age.  We grow life only to cut it just when the seeds mature. We spray chemicals with no end to kill animals and ourselves.

People who scream they are "pro-life" have no problem ordering a steak or veal, eat eggs and whole animals or use services of the in-vitro clinic. It is really comical.
...
And the same parrots have no problem going to war and kill children, as long as they are not from their tribe.
...
Crimes against humanity? LOL.  What about human crimes against nature?  They are not important in your book, I guess.
Me, me, me. Humanity is a plague.

Sounds like you have figured out that mankind is fallen. We indeed commit many crimes against nature which we have stewardship over. However, we will never be able to stop those crimes unless we first stop committing crimes against ourselves.

Romans 5:12-14
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned— To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command.

Revelations 12:12
woe to the earth and the sea
legendary
Activity: 2702
Merit: 1468
December 07, 2019, 03:55:11 PM

The fertilized, living egg IS a human being. That's the point.

Cool

You are a moron.  No amount of evidence will change your mind.

Well, you're mor-off than mor-on. However, to quote another post in this thread, "No amount of evidence will change your mind."

Cool

Af_newbie you do realize that 50% of the US population is prolife don’t you?

United States anti-abortion movement
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_anti-abortion_movement
Quote
The United States anti-abortion movement (or the pro-life movement or right-to-life movement) contains elements opposing induced abortion on both moral and sectarian grounds and supports its legal prohibition or restriction. Advocates generally argue that human life begins at conception and that the human zygote (or embryo or fetus) is a person and therefore has a right to life.

Public opinion is slowly shifting on this topic and we are waking up from our stupor of institutionalized violence against the unborn.



I suspect current trends will continue and society will one day look back on our murderous crimes against the unborn with the same horror we now reserve for other great crimes against humanity.

Truth is not a popularity vote.

It does not matter how many people are for it or against it.  Not long ago 99% of people believed that Earth is flat and is in the center of the universe and all the stars revolved around it.

It is what it is.

Anyone who is sane should be for the preservation of life.  The question is where you draw the line.

Nature is teeming with life.  We grow life in factories just to kill it at a tender age.  We grow life only to cut it just when the seeds mature.
We spray chemicals with no end to kill animals and ourselves.

The truth of the matter is that a fertilized egg is not a sentient being, never mind a human being, that develops much later.

This "pro-life" stance is purely dogmatic or I should say political.  People who scream they are "pro-life" have no problem ordering a steak or veal, eat eggs and whole animals or use services of the in-vitro clinic. It is really comical.

Basically, the majority of the pro-life folks say: "We are pro-life, no matter what!"  and omit to add "as long as it could be a human life".
And the same parrots have no problem going to war and kill children, as long as they are not from their tribe.

If you can show me that a fertilized egg on a petri dish has some brain activity, I am willing to change my mind.
Until then, it is just a bunch of cells.

People who are against stem cell research are uneducated, dogmatic morons, IMHO.

PS. Pull up statistics on evolution, age of the Earth, God creation myth.  Does that make any of them true or false?  The numbers mean diddly-squat whether the proposition is true or false.  Follow the evidence not what people believe at one point in time.  100 years ago women did not have a personhood status.  Alan Turing killed himself because he was homosexual and was ordered by the court to either undergo chemical castration or go to prison. Homosexuality was illegal in the UK at the time.  The majority of people believed that homosexuals should be castrated, I bet you this was after centuries of reformation, a few hundred years ago homosexuals were just killed, as per the Bible recommendation. Atheists face a death penalty in Saudi Arabia.  The majority of people in that country are in favor of this penalty.

PPS.  Crimes against humanity? LOL.  What about human crimes against nature?  They are not important in your book, I guess.
Me, me, me. Humanity is a plague.
legendary
Activity: 1946
Merit: 1055
December 07, 2019, 02:44:56 PM

The fertilized, living egg IS a human being. That's the point.

Cool

You are a moron.  No amount of evidence will change your mind.

Well, you're mor-off than mor-on. However, to quote another post in this thread, "No amount of evidence will change your mind."

Cool

Af_newbie you do realize that 50% of the US population is prolife don’t you?

United States anti-abortion movement
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_anti-abortion_movement
Quote
The United States anti-abortion movement (or the pro-life movement or right-to-life movement) contains elements opposing induced abortion on both moral and sectarian grounds and supports its legal prohibition or restriction. Advocates generally argue that human life begins at conception and that the human zygote (or embryo or fetus) is a person and therefore has a right to life.

Public opinion is slowly shifting on this topic and we are waking up from our stupor of institutionalized violence against the unborn.



I suspect current trends will continue and society will one day look back on our murderous crimes against the unborn with the same horror we now reserve for other great crimes against humanity.
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
December 07, 2019, 01:23:09 PM

The fertilized, living egg IS a human being. That's the point.

Cool

You are a moron.  No amount of evidence will change your mind.

Well, you're mor-off than mor-on. However, to quote another post in this thread, "No amount of evidence will change your mind."

Cool
legendary
Activity: 2702
Merit: 1468
December 07, 2019, 01:16:43 PM

When a 40-year-old man is killed, nobody in their right mind would say that an alive fertilized egg has been killed.
We would say a human being has been killed.  

Why?  Because a fertilized egg is not a human being, dead or alive.  

That is why it is nonsensical to say that a human being has been killed when an alive fertilized egg has been destroyed.

All you can say, alive fertilized eggs have been destroyed.

Fertilized eggs are not beings, never mind human beings.

When a 40-y-o dies, we say a person dies. When a fertilized egg dies, we say a fertilized egg dies. The reason we don't say person with the egg is that the egg is a human in progress. But really, so is the 40-y-o.

Just because we say something one way or another, doesn't mean that we are denying that a fertilized egg is a human being.

The denial that a fertilized egg is a human being is a denial. The acceptance of a fertilized egg being a human being is the acceptance of such. None of it depends on what we say.

In other words, if a fertilized egg dies, someone might say, "A human being just died." Another person might say, "We don't usually say it this way, but you are right."

Cool

EDIT: When you are asleep, you are not conscious. Does this mean that you are not a human being when you are asleep? What about in a coma? Does someone stop being human just because he is in a coma?

Just because something "could become" does not mean it "is".  Deal with reality, not what you want it to be.

The fertilized, living egg IS a human being. That's the point.

Cool

You are a moron.  No amount of evidence will change your mind.
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
December 07, 2019, 01:07:09 PM

When a 40-year-old man is killed, nobody in their right mind would say that an alive fertilized egg has been killed.
We would say a human being has been killed.  

Why?  Because a fertilized egg is not a human being, dead or alive.  

That is why it is nonsensical to say that a human being has been killed when an alive fertilized egg has been destroyed.

All you can say, alive fertilized eggs have been destroyed.

Fertilized eggs are not beings, never mind human beings.

When a 40-y-o dies, we say a person dies. When a fertilized egg dies, we say a fertilized egg dies. The reason we don't say person with the egg is that the egg is a human in progress. But really, so is the 40-y-o.

Just because we say something one way or another, doesn't mean that we are denying that a fertilized egg is a human being.

The denial that a fertilized egg is a human being is a denial. The acceptance of a fertilized egg being a human being is the acceptance of such. None of it depends on what we say.

In other words, if a fertilized egg dies, someone might say, "A human being just died." Another person might say, "We don't usually say it this way, but you are right."

Cool

EDIT: When you are asleep, you are not conscious. Does this mean that you are not a human being when you are asleep? What about in a coma? Does someone stop being human just because he is in a coma?

Just because something "could become" does not mean it "is".  Deal with reality, not what you want it to be.

The fertilized, living egg IS a human being. That's the point.

Cool
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