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Topic: Health and Religion - page 3. (Read 210900 times)

legendary
Activity: 2702
Merit: 1468
December 07, 2019, 01:03:40 PM

When a 40-year-old man is killed, nobody in their right mind would say that an alive fertilized egg has been killed.
We would say a human being has been killed.  

Why?  Because a fertilized egg is not a human being, dead or alive.  

That is why it is nonsensical to say that a human being has been killed when an alive fertilized egg has been destroyed.

All you can say, alive fertilized eggs have been destroyed.

Fertilized eggs are not beings, never mind human beings.

When a 40-y-o dies, we say a person dies. When a fertilized egg dies, we say a fertilized egg dies. The reason we don't say person with the egg is that the egg is a human in progress. But really, so is the 40-y-o.

Just because we say something one way or another, doesn't mean that we are denying that a fertilized egg is a human being.

The denial that a fertilized egg is a human being is a denial. The acceptance of a fertilized egg being a human being is the acceptance of such. None of it depends on what we say.

In other words, if a fertilized egg dies, someone might say, "A human being just died." Another person might say, "We don't usually say it this way, but you are right."

Cool

EDIT: When you are asleep, you are not conscious. Does this mean that you are not a human being when you are asleep? What about in a coma? Does someone stop being human just because he is in a coma?

Just because something "could become" does not mean it "is".  Deal with reality, not what you want it to be.
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
December 07, 2019, 12:10:16 PM

When a 40-year-old man is killed, nobody in their right mind would say that an alive fertilized egg has been killed.
We would say a human being has been killed.  

Why?  Because a fertilized egg is not a human being, dead or alive.  

That is why it is nonsensical to say that a human being has been killed when an alive fertilized egg has been destroyed.

All you can say, alive fertilized eggs have been destroyed.

Fertilized eggs are not beings, never mind human beings.

When a 40-y-o dies, we say a person dies. When a fertilized egg dies, we say a fertilized egg dies. The reason we don't say person with the egg is that the egg is a human in progress. But really, so is the 40-y-o.

Just because we say something one way or another, doesn't mean that we are denying that a fertilized egg is a human being.

The denial that a fertilized egg is a human being is a denial. The acceptance of a fertilized egg being a human being is the acceptance of such. None of it depends on what we say.

In other words, if a fertilized egg dies, someone might say, "A human being just died." Another person might say, "We don't usually say it this way, but you are right."

Cool

EDIT: When you are asleep, you are not conscious. Does this mean that you are not a human being when you are asleep? What about in a coma? Does someone stop being human just because he is in a coma?
legendary
Activity: 2702
Merit: 1468
December 07, 2019, 11:16:57 AM


Fertilized eggs are not beings, never mind human beings.

Ontologically speaking even a stone is a being  Cheesy

So now we play with words.

You know what I meant, a sentient being, not that it merely exists.

Words are important Smiley

Edelman and the likes show that its not that easy to know where sentience and consciousness really starts or ends.

At which point you consider a cell or a group of cell is sentient or not ?

It is hard to determine exactly when this happens as it is a cumulative process, and it is dependent on the environment and genetics.
It is also species-dependent.

To be aware of your environment you need some sort of complex brain.  In the case of a human pregnancy, I am sure that in most cases, a viable fetus is a sentient being.

Consciousness is a result of your brain processing all the inputs, current and past.  When you deprive your brain of oxygen, it slowly dies, when all cells die and the RNA/DNA in your brain cells fragments, there is no going back, your brain is dead forever, and your consciousness ends forever.  

The claim made earlier in this thread that a fertilized egg is a human being is so ridiculous that it blows my mind how people can be so dogmatic.

I only entertained it to lead them out of their logical fallacy.
full member
Activity: 322
Merit: 151
They're tactical
December 07, 2019, 09:56:23 AM


Fertilized eggs are not beings, never mind human beings.

Ontologically speaking even a stone is a being  Cheesy

So now we play with words.

You know what I meant, a sentient being, not that it merely exists.

Words are important Smiley

Edelman and the likes show that its not that easy to know where sentience and consciousness really starts or ends.

At which point you consider a cell or a group of cell is sentient or not ?
legendary
Activity: 2702
Merit: 1468
December 07, 2019, 09:11:24 AM


Fertilized eggs are not beings, never mind human beings.

Ontologically speaking even a stone is a being  Cheesy

So now we play with words.

You know what I meant, a sentient being, not that it merely exists.
full member
Activity: 322
Merit: 151
They're tactical
December 07, 2019, 09:02:30 AM


Fertilized eggs are not beings, never mind human beings.

Ontologically speaking even a stone is a being  Cheesy
legendary
Activity: 2702
Merit: 1468
December 07, 2019, 08:55:16 AM

Two people are human beings.  Two fertilized human eggs are two fertilized human eggs.

A fertilized human egg is not THE SAME as a human being (a newborn child), right?

Fertilized human eggs are not the SAME as human newborn babies from which they have developed, right?


You are getting sooo good.

A coffin is often the result of a human fertilized egg... hopefully 90 or a hundred years down the road.

A baby before it poops its diaper is not the same as it is after it poops its diaper.

90-y-o people are not the same as the 20-y-o people they have developed from.

Cool

So don't tell me that I am killing babies when I destroy fertilized eggs.

Case closed.

Destroying dead fertilized eggs isn't killing babies.

Destroying live, fertilized, human eggs is killing human beings - people.

Cool

I thought you agreed that LIVE fertilized human eggs are not the SAME as LIVE human babies?

Anyway, it was fun talking to both of you.  Looks like you have some mental issues going on so I won't bother you.

Take care.


I thought you agreed that nobody is the same from one day to the next?

...

When a 40-year-old man is killed, nobody in their right mind would say that an alive fertilized egg has been killed.
We would say a human being has been killed.  

Why?  Because a fertilized egg is not a human being, dead or alive.  

That is why it is nonsensical to say that a human being has been killed when an alive fertilized egg has been destroyed.

All you can say, alive fertilized eggs have been destroyed.

Fertilized eggs are not beings, never mind human beings.
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
December 07, 2019, 07:36:09 AM

Two people are human beings.  Two fertilized human eggs are two fertilized human eggs.

A fertilized human egg is not THE SAME as a human being (a newborn child), right?

Fertilized human eggs are not the SAME as human newborn babies from which they have developed, right?


You are getting sooo good.

A coffin is often the result of a human fertilized egg... hopefully 90 or a hundred years down the road.

A baby before it poops its diaper is not the same as it is after it poops its diaper.

90-y-o people are not the same as the 20-y-o people they have developed from.

Cool

So don't tell me that I am killing babies when I destroy fertilized eggs.

Case closed.

Destroying dead fertilized eggs isn't killing babies.

Destroying live, fertilized, human eggs is killing human beings - people.

Cool

I thought you agreed that LIVE fertilized human eggs are not the SAME as LIVE human babies?

Anyway, it was fun talking to both of you.  Looks like you have some mental issues going on so I won't bother you.

Take care.


I thought you agreed that nobody is the same from one day to the next?

Looks like you have some denial issues going on.

The major idea of all the rhetoric is to get you to see that you are thinking way off-base, and that such thinking is a religion for you, that will ultimately wreck your health... even your health for eternity.

We don't know that you are truly locked in to your current attitude, but if I did, I would be posting differently. And maybe you would be, too.

Cool
legendary
Activity: 2702
Merit: 1468
December 06, 2019, 10:48:12 PM

Two people are human beings.  Two fertilized human eggs are two fertilized human eggs.

A fertilized human egg is not THE SAME as a human being (a newborn child), right?

Fertilized human eggs are not the SAME as human newborn babies from which they have developed, right?


You are getting sooo good.

A coffin is often the result of a human fertilized egg... hopefully 90 or a hundred years down the road.

A baby before it poops its diaper is not the same as it is after it poops its diaper.

90-y-o people are not the same as the 20-y-o people they have developed from.

Cool

So don't tell me that I am killing babies when I destroy fertilized eggs.

Case closed.

Destroying dead fertilized eggs isn't killing babies.

Destroying live, fertilized, human eggs is killing human beings - people.

Cool

I thought you agreed that LIVE fertilized human eggs are not the SAME as LIVE human babies?

Anyway, it was fun talking to both of you.  Looks like you have some mental issues going on so I won't bother you.

Take care.
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
December 06, 2019, 07:49:33 PM

Two people are human beings.  Two fertilized human eggs are two fertilized human eggs.

A fertilized human egg is not THE SAME as a human being (a newborn child), right?

Fertilized human eggs are not the SAME as human newborn babies from which they have developed, right?


You are getting sooo good.

A coffin is often the result of a human fertilized egg... hopefully 90 or a hundred years down the road.

A baby before it poops its diaper is not the same as it is after it poops its diaper.

90-y-o people are not the same as the 20-y-o people they have developed from.

Cool

So don't tell me that I am killing babies when I destroy fertilized eggs.

Case closed.

Destroying dead fertilized eggs isn't killing babies.

Destroying live, fertilized, human eggs is killing human beings - people.

Cool
legendary
Activity: 2702
Merit: 1468
December 06, 2019, 06:55:44 PM

Two people are human beings.  Two fertilized human eggs are two fertilized human eggs.

A fertilized human egg is not THE SAME as a human being (a newborn child), right?

Fertilized human eggs are not the SAME as human newborn babies from which they have developed, right?


You are getting sooo good.

A coffin is often the result of a human fertilized egg... hopefully 90 or a hundred years down the road.

A baby before it poops its diaper is not the same as it is after it poops its diaper.

90-y-o people are not the same as the 20-y-o people they have developed from.

Cool

So don't tell me that I am killing babies when I destroy fertilized eggs.

Case closed.
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
December 06, 2019, 06:21:03 PM

Two people are human beings.  Two fertilized human eggs are two fertilized human eggs.

A fertilized human egg is not THE SAME as a human being (a newborn child), right?

Fertilized human eggs are not the SAME as human newborn babies from which they have developed, right?


You are getting sooo good.

A coffin is often the result of a human fertilized egg... hopefully 90 or a hundred years down the road.

A baby before it poops its diaper is not the same as it is after it poops its diaper.

90-y-o people are not the same as the 20-y-o people they have developed from.

Cool
legendary
Activity: 2702
Merit: 1468
December 06, 2019, 04:35:37 PM

Chick is not the same as a chicken.  An embryo is not the same as a chick, a fertilized egg is not the same as an embryo. And finally, a fertilized egg is not the same as a chicken.

Their genome is the same but they are not the same.


Of course organisms are not "the same" at each stage of their life cycle. That is not the point and your language remains sloppy. You are not the same as you were 10 years ago or the same as you will be 10 years hence. Nevertheless you are human aka homo sapien at all points in your changing life and entitled to basic human rights throughout.  

Similarly the chicken is not the same at the various stages of its life but it is still a chicken Gallus gallus domesticus throughout each stage of its development and life.

Your problem is you want to take a portion of the homo sapiens species and arbitrary declare it non human based presumably on your personal desire to profit directly or indirectly via the scientific gains you feel the death and dismemberment of such individuals will afford you. That is wrong but you have somehow blinded yourself to that fact.

Ok, at least you understand that they are not the same.

So a fertilized human egg is not THE SAME as a human being, right?  Do you agree?


No two people are exactly the same. So, which of them are human and which aren't?

The DNA of the fertilized egg is the same as the DNA of the adult. Both are human. They are simply at different stages of their life.

Cool

Two people are human beings.  Two fertilized human eggs are two fertilized human eggs.

A fertilized human egg is not THE SAME as a human being (a newborn child), right?

Fertilized human eggs are not the SAME as human newborn babies from which they have developed, right?

legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
December 06, 2019, 04:16:01 PM

Chick is not the same as a chicken.  An embryo is not the same as a chick, a fertilized egg is not the same as an embryo. And finally, a fertilized egg is not the same as a chicken.

Their genome is the same but they are not the same.


Of course organisms are not "the same" at each stage of their life cycle. That is not the point and your language remains sloppy. You are not the same as you were 10 years ago or the same as you will be 10 years hence. Nevertheless you are human aka homo sapien at all points in your changing life and entitled to basic human rights throughout.  

Similarly the chicken is not the same at the various stages of its life but it is still a chicken Gallus gallus domesticus throughout each stage of its development and life.

Your problem is you want to take a portion of the homo sapiens species and arbitrary declare it non human based presumably on your personal desire to profit directly or indirectly via the scientific gains you feel the death and dismemberment of such individuals will afford you. That is wrong but you have somehow blinded yourself to that fact.

Ok, at least you understand that they are not the same.

So a fertilized human egg is not THE SAME as a human being, right?  Do you agree?


No two people are exactly the same. So, which of them are human and which aren't?

The DNA of the fertilized egg is the same as the DNA of the adult. Both are human. They are simply at different stages of their life.

Cool
legendary
Activity: 2702
Merit: 1468
December 06, 2019, 03:45:31 PM

Chick is not the same as a chicken.  An embryo is not the same as a chick, a fertilized egg is not the same as an embryo. And finally, a fertilized egg is not the same as a chicken.

Their genome is the same but they are not the same.


Of course organisms are not "the same" at each stage of their life cycle. That is not the point and your language remains sloppy. You are not the same as you were 10 years ago or the same as you will be 10 years hence. Nevertheless you are human aka homo sapien at all points in your changing life and entitled to basic human rights throughout.  

Similarly the chicken is not the same at the various stages of its life but it is still a chicken Gallus gallus domesticus throughout each stage of its development and life.

Your problem is you want to take a portion of the homo sapiens species and arbitrary declare it non human based presumably on your personal desire to profit directly or indirectly via the scientific gains you feel the death and dismemberment of such individuals will afford you. That is wrong but you have somehow blinded yourself to that fact.

Ok, at least you understand that they are not the same.

So a fertilized human egg is not THE SAME as a human being, right?  Do you agree?
legendary
Activity: 1946
Merit: 1055
December 06, 2019, 03:10:46 PM

Chick is not the same as a chicken.  An embryo is not the same as a chick, a fertilized egg is not the same as an embryo. And finally, a fertilized egg is not the same as a chicken.

Their genome is the same but they are not the same.


Of course organisms are not "the same" at each stage of their life cycle. That is not the point and your language remains sloppy. You are not the same as you were 10 years ago or the same as you will be 10 years hence. Nevertheless you are human aka homo sapien at all points in your changing life and entitled to basic human rights throughout. 

Similarly the chicken is not the same at the various stages of its life but it is still a chicken Gallus gallus domesticus throughout each stage of its development and life.

Your problem is you want to take a portion of the homo sapiens species and arbitrary declare it non human based presumably on your personal desire to profit directly or indirectly via the scientific gains you feel the death and dismemberment of such individuals will afford you. That is wrong but you have somehow blinded yourself to that fact.
legendary
Activity: 2702
Merit: 1468
December 06, 2019, 02:23:23 PM
...
With your logical fallacy, we might as well call everything alive a living organism and throw away all the descriptions we have developed over the years to properly describe living organisms, name them, categorize and identify different stages of their development.  You can take your analogy even further and say that some atoms in the universe are 'future chicken in progress'.  LOL.
...

The only logical fallacy is yours. The start of life the moment of conception is the only clear and objective metric possible use when differentiating life from non-life. Any other division or "personhood metric" is utterly subjective. BADecker summed it up well above. Your failure to understand it is just that your failure.


...
Removing a human life is different that removing a wart.

Determining when the embryo/fetus becomes a human life is judgmental. Nobody can make such a determination accurately. To do so means that the judgment could be at age 10, or at age 20, or at any other age. This is part of the reason we have wars. One group of humans says that another group of humans should be exterminated.
...
A fertilized human egg is simply a stage in human life. Legal murder at this stage sets the stage to make it legal at any stage.
...

What you can't seem to grasp is that you are accepting the moral exclusion of a vast portion of humanity. Such a process taken to its logical conclusion can just as easily be turned against you or more likely your descendants. A genetically engineered and "superior" branch of humanity may decide that your obvious inferiority makes you not a "real person" and mark you down for liquidation. Or perhaps an AI vastly superior to you in all ways will examine you as you examine the human embryo and decide that you are so far below its level of awareness that you don't count as conscious. After all is it not just to apply your own logical framework upon you? You may dismiss these possibilities as far fetched but technology is marching us day by day to the point where they will be very possible.

Go to the farmer's market and buy eggs and meat chickens.  Then compare.

Your failure to understand the difference is astounding.

You are making a false equivalence logical fallacy.

Chick is not the same as a chicken.  An embryo is not the same as a chick, a fertilized egg is not the same as an embryo.
And finally, a fertilized egg is not the same as a chicken.

Their genome is the same but they are not the same.

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/245/False-Equivalence

legendary
Activity: 1946
Merit: 1055
December 06, 2019, 01:19:17 PM
...
With your logical fallacy, we might as well call everything alive a living organism and throw away all the descriptions we have developed over the years to properly describe living organisms, name them, categorize and identify different stages of their development.  You can take your analogy even further and say that some atoms in the universe are 'future chicken in progress'.  LOL.
...

The only logical fallacy is yours. The start of life the moment of conception is the only clear and objective metric possible use when differentiating life from non-life. Any other division or "personhood metric" is utterly subjective. BADecker summed it up well above. Your failure to understand it is just that your failure.


...
Removing a human life is different that removing a wart.

Determining when the embryo/fetus becomes a human life is judgmental. Nobody can make such a determination accurately. To do so means that the judgment could be at age 10, or at age 20, or at any other age. This is part of the reason we have wars. One group of humans says that another group of humans should be exterminated.
...
A fertilized human egg is simply a stage in human life. Legal murder at this stage sets the stage to make it legal at any stage.
...

What you can't seem to grasp is that you are accepting the moral exclusion of a vast portion of humanity. Such a process taken to its logical conclusion can just as easily be turned against you or more likely your descendants. A genetically engineered and "superior" branch of humanity may decide that your obvious inferiority makes you not a "real person" and mark you down for liquidation. Or perhaps an AI vastly superior to you in all ways will examine you as you examine the human embryo and decide that you are so far below its level of awareness that you don't count as conscious. After all is it not just to apply your own logical framework upon you? You may dismiss these possibilities as far fetched but technology is marching us day by day to the point where they will be very possible.
legendary
Activity: 2702
Merit: 1468
December 06, 2019, 12:07:08 PM
Yes that is a chicken embryo. This one was killed probably for this photo but had it not been killed and had it been kept warm between 99 and 102 degrees Fahrenheit it would have grown into a baby chick in less then 21 days.

For those who don't know. Chicken eggs purchased at stores are eggs not embryos. They lack the small embryonic tissue highlighted in af_newbies photo.    

I am talking about fertilized chicken eggs.  Focus, doctor, focus.  Is this a chicken, doctor?


It was the very beginning of a new chicken life. It is a dead chicken.

I am guessing you have not seen a dead chicken.  A dead chicken does not look like a fertilized egg. LOL.

You are just dishonest to acknowledge the difference and admit that you are making a logical fallacy.  
I don't think you are a complete idiot, despite the fact that you hang on to a lost argument only a complete moron or BADecker would.

It is not a dead chicken, it is a fertilized egg.  This is what a dead chicken looks like:


With your logical fallacy, we might as well call everything alive a living organism and throw away all the descriptions we have developed over the years to properly describe living organisms, name them, categorize and identify different stages of their development.  You can take your analogy even further and say that some atoms in the universe are 'future chicken in progress'.  LOL.

You guys are comedians.  "Fertilized eggs are dead chickens" WTF?  You guys are cracking me up.

newbie
Activity: 13
Merit: 0
December 06, 2019, 10:37:04 AM
I had an IQ of 160 once upon a time. It's probably about 100 less now. I regard the religious as mentally ill. I have zero desire to procreate and think the world's a fuckhole. Hey, I guess you're right.

I'm sorry, but your IQ is probably already 159 less than it was. You didn't say absolutely nothing reasonable. Just an ordinary man in the street who wants to just laugh on the Internet.
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