Topic: How Satoshi Nakamoto Fooled the World - page 39. (Read 8983 times)

For something to be "used" to settle transactions or for whatever purpose, it must exist. Can you comprehend something so simple? Decentralized and censorship-resistant ledger that you're referring to has addresses and numbers attached to them. There's no money or digital product that is in the possession of the address holders. Only numbers are attached to their addresses. Fake data. When you're suggesting that this data quantifies a digital product called "bitcoin" that's a lie. Neither you nor anyone else is able to show a digital product called bitcoin. Applications are digital. Sounds, pictures, videos, animations. There are many digital products. And people are able to show them when they claim these products exist. You see how simple it is? You, on the other hand, are claiming that bitcoin exists and that it's digital and that it has many wonderful features, but you are not able to show it. Instead, you are playing semantics. But I have no problem with that. It's pretty funny.

I know, but it's a funny troll. It's like a patience test. 

@BlackHatCoiner you do know you are arguing with a troll. Just put him on ignore (like all the girls did to him) and he will go away. Sooner or later he will have to leave his moms basement and go to his job of sweeping up the wal-mart parking lot and target his trolling on something else.

-Dave

That is correct.

This is also true.

That's false, because money is used to settle transactions and Bitcoin is also used to settle transactions. People find it satisfactory to use a public, decentralized and censorship-resistant ledger to deal with. The units can be defined as space in the ledger even if they don't represent something that is tangible.

If it was meaningless, you could cheat those people electronic pockets. It's just a number that doesn't represent anything, as you put it, but you can't change it. The censorship resistance suddenly proves its usefulness.

But you are not transferring flying spaghetti monster just as you are not transferring bitcoin. Remember, they are non-existent. You are just attaching numbers to addresses. Payment means that you transfer SOMEthing. If there is NOthing transferred then obviously no one is paid their dues. So, there is no money in Satoshi's creation. There are only numbers attached to addresses. Numbers are concepts about quantity of things, and are represented with symbols.  When symbol "5" is used that means there are more things than when symbol "1" is used. So, when a specific symbol is attached to a bitcoin address you have to be able to show the thing which you call bitcoin. If you are not able to show it the thing is non-existent and that what is attached to the address means nothing. In fact, it's fake data.

But, a flying spaghetti monster isn't easy to transfer neither to verify, let alone to divide it. It doesn't meet the requirements to be money. However, if we found another object or some sort of global ledger where we can sign our dues (even if those numbers don't represent anything), we can use it as currency.

This is Bitcoin. It doesn't represent ANYTHING. It only gives us an idea of who's paid their dues. If lots believe it can work as money, because it meet the requirements to be one, above and beyond, then who're you to claim it doesn't?

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Back to the fiat currency: It represents only a title that is recognizable by the state. Do you agree that a person can use a medium of exchange whose usage isn't being forced?

This is as nonsensical as saying "flying spaghetti monster can also be loaned". Attaching a number to a name and write some letters next to it (BTC or FSM) has nothing to do with loans.

Bitcoin can also be loaned.

Money is something that exists. Loans are granted, debt is created, debt is dollars. Therefore, dollars exist.

Bitcoin is something that doesn't exist. It's like flying spaghetti monster, a monster that doesn't exist. But you can name it (FSM), declare by protocol that there are 21 million of flying spaghetti monsters, and then store math symbols into a database by saying that when "1" is stored or attached to someone's address, this person purchased one FSM. Then I would ask the buyer where's FSM, and the buyer would start talking about fiat money. That's what you are doing. Essentially, I am having fun with you. I know that you know bitcoin is non-existent and that Satoshi fooled you all, but you cannot admit it. That's human psychology. Best described in this quote by Mark Twain: "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled".

Where's this "dollar" product? How does it look like? 

It turns out that we disagree of what's money. You say that it's solely debt. I agree with this definition:
And Bitcoin fulfills it.

Can you please answer where's bitcoin? Stop talking about fiat money. Fiat money is debt clearly recorded in the accounting books of central and commercial banks that gets paid every single day to deposit or banknote holders. No debt, no numbers. Numbers simply measure the size of the debt. The same as in bonds for example. There's nothing to discuss here. We are interested in bitcoin. In the blockchain we have address and numbers attached to them. Messaging application called bitcoin wallet states that these numbers measure the size a digital product called BTC. Now, can you finally tell me where's this product? And how it looks like. An address holder with "8" attached to it, vs. the one that has "1" attached, supposedly has eight times bigger quantity of that product. Where's this product? Where's bitcoin?

The answer to a question such as "Bitcoin is meaningless" requires further discussion. I can't give you any answers until I ensure we understand money in the same way.

You're perpetually trying to change the subject. Debt isn't inextricably connected with money. It's created after we've agreed on which currency will be used in our transactions. Two entities, a customer and a merchant can agree to settle their transaction with debt, but without using a fiat currency. For instance, the customer gets their product after they've promised the merchant that they'll deliver them precious rocks. That's also debt.

I repeat, the central bank can create money without any citizen's or commercial bank's permission. That money can be later used to increase debt and be exchanged for goods and services. You're describing what happens afterwards the money is created. The central bank can also be used as a metaphor to the "numbers from a software" you've outlined.

To give you an example: Commercial banks could instead of borrowing from the central bank, gather and decide to setup their own digital currency, which will be used later for loans with collaterals etc.

See: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30469383

Debt are loan contracts secured with collaterals or bank capital and evidenced in the accounting books of the banks. These things do exist. Math symbols on banknotes or deposit accounts simply informs us about the share in this debt. Check the video in the OP to see how the debt is paid to its owners.

Can I now finally get the answer to my question?

Yes, but banknotes alone don't create debt. While commercial banks do borrow money from the central bank, the money the central bank creates is out of thin air. They represent nothing.

Yes, there's lending between the central bank and the commercial banks and yes, there's lending between the commercial banks and the households/businesses, but that doesn't show that the dollar, as a unit represents a "thing", as you put it. All I see is trust from the commercial banks and households/businesses to the monetary policy of the central bank, which is controlled usually by one entity, the government.

Banknotes are loans to commercial banks. No banknote or deposit can be put into circulation without a loan. Only if you counterfeit them. Then that's a criminal offense that is punishable by years in prison.

So, can you now answer my questions? You want a food from me and you say I'll receive bitcoin in return. But all I see happening in such situations is a swap of math symbols between addresses. I see no thing or a product called bitcoin. Math symbols are used to express the concept of quantity of things. Symbol "2" informs us that there's more quantity of something then when we have symbol "1". So, swapping the two symbols means that one person transferred something to another person. It is said this is bitcoin. It is said bitcoin is a digital product. That it is censorship resistant. That it provides financial autonomy, monetary sovereignty, freedom. I would like to see such a fantastic product. I wanna check it and see whether one peace of that product, or one share in ownership of that product is worth $40,000. So, can you finally reveal where this product is located?

Why? Why should there be debt, equity, goods etc.? The US government perpetually prints a lot amount of money, and those banknotes don't represent anything anymore. Before 1971, there was a law saying that you can exchange those with gold. Currently, this isn't the case. They're just pieces of paper and people treat them like currency, because they trust their government. In other words, the government says they're the base medium of exchange and people use those to transact with.

Debt is created once there's loaning of money. Printing money, alone, doesn't create debt. Is there anything you disagree with, so far?

Sure, a currency is money in some form. That's true. A key word is "some". So something has to exist to be a currency. Some commodity, debt, equity, good, whatever. That's why I am asking where is cryptocurrency called bitcoin? I see math symbols attached to address. But I see nothing else. That's why I am asking you. And you are keep talking about irrelevant things. Or giving definitions of existing things. If you say that bitcoin is a digital currency, a digital product, you have to be able to show it. If I say that I have a specific quantity of digital products, such as pictures, sounds, videos or applications, I am able to show these products to you. But all you can show me is mathematical symbols attached to addresses. They are supposed to inform us about the specific quantity of a digital product called bitcoin. But where's bitcoin? How do you know bitcoin is digital if you're not able to show it?

Anyone can write a computer program that will attach math symbols to addresses and then claim these symbols quantity a particular product. But the key question is: where is that product? What is it? That's why I've asked the question: what is bitcoin? But all of you here are ignoring the question. You, for example, keep talking about bitcoin, but all that exists are math symbols. The owner of an address with this symbol: "0" supposedly owns zero bitcoins. Someone with this symbol: "1", supposedly owns one bitcoin. And someone with this symbol: "8", supposedly owns eight times more bitcoins than the previous owner. Eight times more of this digital product. And it is said this product is revolutionary. But where's this revolutionary digital product? How do you know it's revolutionary if you're not able to show it?

So, can you tell me where is this product located? Blockchain only has addresses and math symbols attached to them. All three address owners mentioned above, have equal number of symbols. Only the shape of symbols is different - "0", "1", "8". But the last owner supposedly has eight times more of this bitcoin than the previous owner. So, can you tell me where bitcoin is located?

That's, pedantically, true. If don't create capital with it, "investing into Bitcoin" may sound grammatically incorrect. Neither do you, though, when you use a fiat currency. Don't mess investments with currencies, let's take it one at a time.

Since I've seen you're keen on definitions, let's see how Wikipedia defines what's "currency":

So, a currency is, by definition, used as intermediary to exchanging. A country may create its own to handle the economy. It, therefore, legalizes its use. People use the currency, because they live inside the country. The administration of it happens from the central bank of the country.

Is everything good so far?

We can't blame them because maybe someone got offended on some of the word thrown by the OP because you know many of us here are solid bitcoiners and they are too sensitive when they think someone makes fun of btc or spread wrong information but in my case, I am not really offended when I see posts like this but in fact this makes me laugh, its funny that it can gave me a little bit of entertainment .

I thought OP is going to say that you can send a message in the form of sending a bitcoin, I was expecting that we will say that but I think that is possible? I have seen someone before decode a text message but I think it was something from the blockchain. It's interesting though.

Thank you for putting the answers for me in ways shorter than I am able to.

I'm a simple, regular guy. For sure more average than most of the people commenting in the Bitcoin technical discussions which I enjoy and cannot really contribute.

We all pay money for what we think is valuable. I don't purchase antivirus, for example, but I know people who do because they believe it gives them security because they cannot protect themselves. Some buy password managers.

I accept payment in Bitcoin for small work, I don't buy as much as I have earned, but I would rather accept Bitcoin than Paypal for example because I have never had problems selling my Bitcoin or had it frozen or blocked. Paypal has done it to me many, many times. I gave up on them because my nationality makes it a problem for them I guess.

Is this freedom? Is this financial autonomy? If this censorship free? I believe so. I may not have used these words but my actions allowed with Bitcoin and NOT with Paypal (which is doing that because it is fiat based) are how I believe these points are true.