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Topic: How Satoshi Nakamoto Fooled the World - page 42. (Read 8968 times)

hero member
Activity: 1974
Merit: 534
March 16, 2022, 04:19:09 AM
#12

That essentially means that there's no buying going on in the bitcoin system. No investing. We don't buy or invest in numbers. This would be as nonsensical as saying that we bought or invested in SMS message when we received one. Receiving a dozen of letters or numbers is not investing or buying, because alfanumeric symbols are not copyrighted. We use them for free whenever we need them. If we need numbers for performing mathematical calculations or labeling and quantifying things, we just produce them out of thin air and represent with symbols (0-9). We don't need to buy numbers. We don't need someone to protect them in a distributed database. Numbers are stored in our minds, and they don't need protection like gold, diamonds or cars do.


I understand bitcoins completely different from you. In my opinion there is buying and selling going on. The way you describe it sounds like there is one big entity behind bitcoins who controls everything. That is definitely not the case, there are tons of different miners out there, all around the world. The miners then sell the bitcoins to the investors and traders. There is not only one bitcoin exchange out there, and they are not all owned by the same person.  The bitcoin community is full of individuals that buy and sell bitcoins on regularly. Saying that there is no buying or no investing going on is not right. For me the numbers of my bitcoin wallet are not easy to remember, I can't store such long numbers in my mind, I need protection.
jr. member
Activity: 252
Merit: 1
March 16, 2022, 03:00:08 AM
#11
To say that Bitcoin is only a messaging system because all it does is transfer information is incredibly ignorant.

And your video is ridiculous. No matter what you think, the "number" that John holds is worth $400,000. That was proven when Steve paid $400,000 for it. And it is further validated by the fact that someone else will give Steve $400,000 for it. Regardless of how you feel, it is not worthless because it is just a "number". If that were true, then why can't you make a number and sell it for $400,000.

BTW, that money in your bank account? It's just a number.

Satoshi's software is making numbers and selling them to people. I also can make numbers. Everyone can. Why people are paying for numbers made by Satoshi is a mystery that's beyond my comprehension.

As for you last point. No, that money in my bank account is not a number. It is the liability of the banking system towards me, whose size is measured with a number. Watch the video. It is explained how the banking system fulfills that liability.



Ok, you obviously does not understand that the every "token" that are mined are unique and also that it is scarce. When you fire up TiKtok on your phone and when you buy some coins on that platform... to gift other people... those "coins" are digital, but the difference between those "coins" and bitcoins are the fact that Bitcoin has a limited supply. (Fixed in the Bitcoin Protocol)

TiKtok can generate any amount of coins it wants, because it is not fixed supply. People still value those TiKtok gifts and are willing to do almost anything to get it. (They then convert it to diamonds and they then sell the digital diamonds back to TiKtok to get cash through a payment processor.)

There will only be 21 000 000 bitcoins ...... but there might be billions of TiKtok coins being generated in the future.  Wink  That is why people call Bitcoin ....Digital Gold.  Grin
Nothing is mined. That's false narrative. Misinformation. The Satoshi's software just makes numbers out of thin air and sends them to miner's addresses after they spent electricity to perform mathematical calculations. Everybody can create protocols to send numbers to someone when they perform a specific task. But numbers are still number and they're created out of thin air.

Bitcoin is a number. Numbers are infinite in quantity. Just because you made a protocol that limits numbers to 21 million means nothing. One can set such limit to 10. Someone else to 100 billion. That's just protocols.



Lol hate to break it to you but you've got no idea what you're talking about and I'd encourage you to do more research so that you can actually understand how bitcoin works.  Bitcoin isn't a messaging system.  It's a transaction system with numbers, like that of a bank or credit cards.  When banks send money from one bank to another do you think they actually send cold hard cash each time?  When you pay for something on credit, are you sending cold hard cash or simply transferring debt via numbers?  You say bitcoin doesn't transfer ownership? ..this is where you're dead wrong.  The blockchain is what proves ownership, and private keys are what allows you to access that ownership as well as transfer it.  When only you have the private keys to a wallet (which wallets can be physical) then you own those coins, and you alone.
No, in the system of credit cards, the ownership of bank's debt is transferred from one person to another, while numbers just express the size of the ownership, they quantify it. Numbers are used exactly for such purposes. To quantity things. The banking systems manages loans, that is, debt. And uses numbers to quantity the size of debt. Watch the video. The banking system is a debt managing system. The bitcoin system is a messaging system, like SMS. You cannot compare the two in any way.



Exactly the same thing happens in bitcoin system. The senders are just transferring data (numbers) via bitcoin messaging system, without the receivers getting the ownership rights on some type of property. The receivers are just able to read the received numbers or send them to someone else. And that's basically it. That's what messaging system are doing.

Ok, let's do a test.
Get 1 BTC, I'll give you my address, send that Bitcoin to my address and let's see afterward who owns it and who can send that "SMS" once more or if you can get that "data" back unless I want that too. Deal?

That essentially means that there's no buying going on in the bitcoin system. No investing. We don't buy or invest in numbers. This would be as nonsensical as saying that we bought or invested in SMS message when we received one. Receiving a dozen of letters or numbers is not investing or buying, because alfanumeric symbols are not copyrighted. We use them for free whenever we need them.

Again, can you please send me some let's say 10 BTC, maybe 20 BTC if you're such a nice guy? Especially since they are free?

If we need numbers for performing mathematical calculations or labeling and quantifying things, we just produce them out of thin air and represent with symbols (0-9). We don't need to buy numbers. We don't need someone to protect them in a distributed database. Numbers are stored in our minds, and they don't need protection like gold, diamonds or cars do.

So a credit card or a bank account is...what?  Grin
BTC is a number. I can get a number in an instant. And I can send it to you electronically for free. What you are asking is that I send you a number via bitcoin messaging system. And in order to do that I have to pay for it. That's the bizarre thing I am talking about it the video. Numbers are free and we don't pay for them. So in order to perform your test I would have to pay for a number. And that's something I'll never do. I'll never gave my property for free to someone just to recieve a number through the bitcoin messaging system.

A credit card is a means of debt management. A bank account also.

[moderator's note: consecutive posts merged]
legendary
Activity: 3542
Merit: 1965
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March 16, 2022, 02:53:58 AM
#10
Ok, you obviously does not understand that the every "token" that are mined are unique and also that it is scarce. When you fire up TiKtok on your phone and when you buy some coins on that platform... to gift other people... those "coins" are digital, but the difference between those "coins" and bitcoins are the fact that Bitcoin has a limited supply. (Fixed in the Bitcoin Protocol)

TiKtok can generate any amount of coins it wants, because it is not fixed supply. People still value those TiKtok gifts and are willing to do almost anything to get it. (They then convert it to diamonds and they then sell the digital diamonds back to TiKtok to get cash through a payment processor.)

There will only be 21 000 000 bitcoins ...... but there might be billions of TiKtok coins being generated in the future.  Wink  That is why people call Bitcoin ....Digital Gold.  Grin
jr. member
Activity: 252
Merit: 1
March 16, 2022, 02:52:23 AM
#9
It's adorable when someone completely misunderstands something and then tries to convince others that their flawed comprehension is some sort of revelatory truth.  Particularly when they're on their umpteenth username and their spiel still doesn't sound convincing.

Possession of a private key which allows you to spend a sum of BTC is very much a manifestation of ownership rights.  BTC cannot be duplicated like the types of message you have described.  I look forward to your next moniker and subsequent failed attempt to insinuate that there is no value in what Bitcoin offers.  People immeasurably smarter than you see the value in it.  
I am not trying to convince anyone, just presenting an interesting discovery.

As for your reasons. Of course that you own a private key. The same as you own passwords and other security measures against unauthorized access to data in other systems. We use security measures to log onto computers, mobile devices, networks, websites, whatever. But security measures are free. In bitcoin, you just download the messaging application called the bitcoin wallet and you own your private key. For free.

Regarding value. I am not saying that numbers don't have value. They do. We use them every day for performing mathematical calculations and quantifying or labeling things. They are very valuable and important to people. But, they are free. Nobody pays money to get and use numbers. We just create them out of thin air and represent with symbols (0-9) That's the bizarre thing in the bitcoin messaging system - people are paying tons of money or spend tons of electricity (miners) just because Satoshi's messaging system will send a number to their address.
legendary
Activity: 3276
Merit: 3537
Nec Recisa Recedit
March 15, 2022, 05:15:35 PM
#8
" that what Satoshi invented is nothing revolutionary. "
we have dozens of example of what he/she/they invented is just unique and just a change on the way to think for many things that requires an interaction with another human or an entity. for the first time you can trust something...and nothing else.
isn't revolutionary?

you made a long post ... that has at the end a youtube link. sincerely, you made it only for attracting visit on your link?
member
Activity: 1092
Merit: 67
March 15, 2022, 04:45:29 PM
#7
Exactly the same thing happens in bitcoin system. The senders are just transferring data (numbers) via bitcoin messaging system, without the receivers getting the ownership rights on some type of property. The receivers are just able to read the received numbers or send them to someone else. And that's basically it. That's what messaging system are doing.

Ok, let's do a test.
Get 1 BTC, I'll give you my address, send that Bitcoin to my address and let's see afterward who owns it and who can send that "SMS" once more or if you can get that "data" back unless I want that too. Deal?

That essentially means that there's no buying going on in the bitcoin system. No investing. We don't buy or invest in numbers. This would be as nonsensical as saying that we bought or invested in SMS message when we received one. Receiving a dozen of letters or numbers is not investing or buying, because alfanumeric symbols are not copyrighted. We use them for free whenever we need them.

Again, can you please send me some let's say 10 BTC, maybe 20 BTC if you're such a nice guy? Especially since they are free?

If we need numbers for performing mathematical calculations or labeling and quantifying things, we just produce them out of thin air and represent with symbols (0-9). We don't need to buy numbers. We don't need someone to protect them in a distributed database. Numbers are stored in our minds, and they don't need protection like gold, diamonds or cars do.

So a credit card or a bank account is...what?  Grin

I don't know what the OP's motive here, to convince people his distorted beliefs towards bitcoin? What you offer him to do will basically test his premise here. If the receiver is just able to receive the numbers and not owners, let's see if he is even willing to send you even 10k satoshis. We are not buying numbers here but the value of the bitcoin itself. This is why if you have btc, you want to secure it as much as possible. If you think that it is only just a number, can you easily transfer your btc to another person without much thinking about it? After all, you said, it is just a number and don't need any kind of protection.
full member
Activity: 287
Merit: 159
March 15, 2022, 04:18:17 PM
#6
It's adorable when someone completely misunderstands something and then tries to convince others that their flawed comprehension is some sort of revelatory truth.  Particularly when they're on their umpteenth username and their spiel still doesn't sound convincing.

This appears, as you describe, that it is an attack on bitcoin.

It has been a while since I have read through Satoshi's comments, but I recall him going on and on about this "attack" or that "attack", mostly attacks upon the software.

It would seem that this OP is just another type of attack on bitcoin.  It could be categorized as a psychological attack, rather than a computational attack.

legendary
Activity: 2912
Merit: 6403
Blackjack.fun
March 15, 2022, 03:48:03 PM
#5
Exactly the same thing happens in bitcoin system. The senders are just transferring data (numbers) via bitcoin messaging system, without the receivers getting the ownership rights on some type of property. The receivers are just able to read the received numbers or send them to someone else. And that's basically it. That's what messaging system are doing.

Ok, let's do a test.
Get 1 BTC, I'll give you my address, send that Bitcoin to my address and let's see afterward who owns it and who can send that "SMS" once more or if you can get that "data" back unless I want that too. Deal?

That essentially means that there's no buying going on in the bitcoin system. No investing. We don't buy or invest in numbers. This would be as nonsensical as saying that we bought or invested in SMS message when we received one. Receiving a dozen of letters or numbers is not investing or buying, because alfanumeric symbols are not copyrighted. We use them for free whenever we need them.

Again, can you please send me some let's say 10 BTC, maybe 20 BTC if you're such a nice guy? Especially since they are free?

If we need numbers for performing mathematical calculations or labeling and quantifying things, we just produce them out of thin air and represent with symbols (0-9). We don't need to buy numbers. We don't need someone to protect them in a distributed database. Numbers are stored in our minds, and they don't need protection like gold, diamonds or cars do.

So a credit card or a bank account is...what?  Grin
legendary
Activity: 2282
Merit: 3014
March 15, 2022, 03:47:31 PM
#4
Lol hate to break it to you but you've got no idea what you're talking about and I'd encourage you to do more research so that you can actually understand how bitcoin works.  Bitcoin isn't a messaging system.  It's a transaction system with numbers, like that of a bank or credit cards.  When banks send money from one bank to another do you think they actually send cold hard cash each time?  When you pay for something on credit, are you sending cold hard cash or simply transferring debt via numbers?  You say bitcoin doesn't transfer ownership? ..this is where you're dead wrong.  The blockchain is what proves ownership, and private keys are what allows you to access that ownership as well as transfer it.  When only you have the private keys to a wallet (which wallets can be physical) then you own those coins, and you alone.
hero member
Activity: 1498
Merit: 711
Enjoy 500% bonus + 70 FS
March 15, 2022, 03:15:35 PM
#3
I'm tried of reading the whole thing because is very ambiguous to read understand, op you would have given a much space for the reader to be able read and comprehend exactly what you are saying, i acknowledge @ DooMAD for having patient to read your write your message up to end and comprehend before responding.
legendary
Activity: 3948
Merit: 3191
Leave no FUD unchallenged
March 15, 2022, 02:31:59 PM
#2
It's adorable when someone completely misunderstands something and then tries to convince others that their flawed comprehension is some sort of revelatory truth.  Particularly when they're on their umpteenth username and their spiel still doesn't sound convincing.

Possession of a private key which allows you to spend a sum of BTC is very much a manifestation of ownership rights.  BTC cannot be duplicated like the types of message you have described.  I look forward to your next moniker and subsequent failed attempt to insinuate that there is no value in what Bitcoin offers.  People immeasurably smarter than you see the value in it.


//EDIT:  OP has now completely rewritten their post.  It's still mindless garbage, but they've abandoned one of their flawed arguments I had countered above. 
jr. member
Activity: 252
Merit: 1
March 15, 2022, 09:12:39 AM
#1
Satoshi Nakamoto is the identity used by the unknown person or people that in the year 2008., authored the Bitcoin Whitepaper. In that paper, they claimed: “We have proposed a system for electronic transactions…” Basically, they claimed to have come up with a payment system that uses its own digital money. However, that was not true. What they came up with is a system that transfers numbers and stores them in a distributed database called blockchain. That system is completely void of money or any other resources. And all it provided the public with, is access to a global pyramid scheme. Or maybe a Ponzi scheme, depending on whether Nakamoto made false claims due to ignorance or intention and profited from that. Wich is unknown due to anonymity. But regardless, Nakamoto’s false claims fooled many people around the world and made them to invest in the system. Once they are in, the only possible way to get out, is through new investors. And that’s obviously not a payment system, but a pyramid-like scheme. In the payment systems, people trade one type of resource for another and are not dependent on the whims and wishes of new investors to join the system and bring the resources in. Here, we will first address one false claim in the Bitcoin Whitepaper, which became the bases for the whole misconception of Nakamoto’s system being a payment system. Then we will refute the myth of this system being some kind of alternative to the banking system, which is often advertised by the propagators of Nakamoto’s work. Finally, we will show that the pyramid scheme accessed via this system is an extremely negative-sum game, which makes it far worse than all prior pyramid schemes.

Often, when people own resources, numbers are written on some paper or digital media to represent the quantity of those resources. For example. "100 TSLA" written on a brokerage account means that someone owns one hundred shares in Tesla company. "100 USD" written on a banknote or bank account, means that someone owns one hundred units of debt created in the US banking system. And "100 acres" written on a title certificate, means that someone owns one hundred units of land. Here, company, debt, and land are resources, while the number "100" is an auxiliary means for representing the quantity of resources. That means that in the transactions, we transfer the ownership of resources, and use numbers to represent the quantity of those resources. What Satoshi Nakamoto did, is came up with a system that transfers numbers, but a resource whose quantity those numbers are supposed to represent, does not exist. Instead, it is imaginary. It only has a name - bitcoin (BTC). And it emerged in the Bitcoin Whitepaper, through a false claim of the author. Namely, Nakamoto claimed that the transfer of numbers in the system is actually the "transfer of coins" (digital coins). They essentially claimed that whenever someone gets a number transferred to their address, they become the owner of a digital resource in the quantity represented with the number. The supposed resource was given the above-mentioned name - bitcoin. The generic terms for bitcoin are "cryptocurrency", "virtual commodity", "electronic cash", "digital asset", "digital money", etc. When one reads "100 BTC" in their wallet application, they supposedly own one hundred units of a digital resource. But as we have said, that resource is only imaginary. Let's perform a simple experiment to demonstrate this. Suppose one person has the number "0.01" in their wallet application, and the other "100". If those numbers were representing the quantity of a digital resource, then the second person should be able to show 10,000 (100/0.01) times more digital bits in their possession, than the first one. Because, all digital resources are composed of digital bits - 0 and 1. And they occupy memory space. Yet, there's no 10,000 times bigger memory space in Nakamoto's system, reserved for the second person and occupied with digital bits. Both persons have only numbers next to their addresses. And those numbers occupy nearly the same memory space in the blockchain. Other components of the system are protocols and software for cryptographic verification of transfers, the network of nodes for performing the verifications, and wallet applications for making the transfers. Therefore, nowhere in the Bitcoin system is there any digital resource called bitcoin. Consequently, there aren't any bitcoin transactions. There aren't any payments. There aren't any "transfers of coins", as claimed in the Bitcoin Whitepaper. All there is, are transfers of numbers. These numbers create the illusion of quantity and fool the people into believing that they are buying a digital resource. While in reality, they are buying nothing. The resource is only imaginary. It is no wonder then, that existing investors can return their investment of resources only from the resources contributed by new investors. Hence, just like in all pyramid schemes.

Given that the Bitcoin system is a mere means for accessing a pyramid scheme, the existing investors, naturally, want to lure new investors into the scheme. That  gave rise to a whole range of myths and misconceptions. One of the often advertised myths is that the Bitcoin system is an alternative to the banking system. This is, besides being nonsensical, pretty comical, given that the latter system manages a real resource, while the former an imaginary one. Namely, when banks grant loans to borrowers, and in that way create debt (a resource), they use numbers, generally known as fiat money, to represent the quantity of that debt. Then, market participants invest in the created debt by trading their resources with borrowers for fiat money. That is, for numbers written on banknotes or bank accounts. In that way, the participants become debt owners. Debt ownership then changes hands on the market. But of course, the nature of debt is that it needs to be paid. Meaning, the borrowers must return resources back to debt owners. That’s after all the reason why the banks use mortgages and other liens to force them to repay their loans. In order to repay their loans, the borrowers must work for people that have fiat money, or sell them products and services. In that way, the borrowers get the money for loan repayments and in the same time return the resources back to people that invested in debt. Basically, they pay the debt to debt owners. Then, they take the received fiat money to the banks as evidence that debt has been paid. The banks then liquidate part of their loans. The process repeats until the loans are paid off. If the borrowers default on their loans, the banks will foreclose their mortgages and sell the properties to those that have fiat money. That’s because fiat money is a legal liability of the banks, and the banks must withdraw it from the market to liquidate the unpaid loans. Hence, in the banking system numbers are used for representing the quantity of a real resource - debt. And it is this resource what enables fiat money holders, who invested in that debt, to return their investments. On the other hand, the Bitcoin system uses numbers for creating the illusion of a resource, given that no resource exists in this system. That's why the idea of Bitcoin system being some kind of alternative to the banking system is just a myth. And it belongs to Bitcoin propaganda that has the purpose to lure new investors into the scheme.

Interestingly, Bitcoin propaganda was very successful. It caused two mind-boggling things to happen. First, it pumped up the price of imaginary bitcoin from zero, to a high of $70,000, with the current price around $20,000. Second, it made the crypto industry to pop up. This industry makes huge profits from the most nonsensical human activity ever - buying and selling imaginary assets. Through the crypto systems people simply receive numbers on their addresses, and then they imagine owning digital assets in the quantity indicated with these numbers. Then, they advertise this as some kind of revolution and make others to pay even more for receiving the same numbers. At every such transfer of numbers, participants pay fees to brokers. Basically, they pay fees for joining or leaving pyramid schemes. Which is pretty absurd. It is one thing to pay fees for transferring the ownership of resources, which is what happens in real economic transactions. However, paying fees for entering schemes where people are forced to wait for new investors to get out is indeed pretty absurd. But that's not all. In order to keep the pyramid schemes alive, significant investments in computer hardware are required and enormous amounts of electricity are spent. For example, the analysis by Cambridge University showed that the Bitcoin system uses more electricity annually than the whole of Argentina. Besides spending so much electricity only for accessing a pyramid scheme is an insane waste of energy, it also makes the bitcoin pyramid an extremely negative-sum game. In prior pyramid schemes, the participants collectively lost nothing, given that the amounts won by ones were equal to the combined losses of others. In other words, people didn't pay fees to brokers, expensive computer hardware, and  giant electricity bills just for participating in pyramid schemes. Those schemes were therefore zero-sum games. But in the bitcoin pyramid scheme, the participants collectively lose what they are paying for fees to brokers, computer hardware, and electricity. Which makes this scheme an extremely negative-sum game.

To conclude. Satoshi Nakamoto fooled the world by promising people revolutionary digital money in the Bitcoin Whitepaper, but delivering them a system for accessing an extremely negative-sum pyramid scheme.

Source: https://btcfraud.wordpress.com/
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