Is taxation theft? | Bitcointalksearch.org

BADecker

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Quote from: JSRAW on February 21, 2019, 12:18:51 PM

Yes, if you are using roads, electricity, gas, medical or any kind of facility, you come under tax bracket etc and not paying your taxes then you are a thief. period

If you are living by your self in Himalayas or woods and not using or getting the benefit of any of the following perks then it's not theft.

The problems with what you say are these:

1. You almost never get an itemization of what you received for your tax money, what each item cost, and how much of it you get for your money. This being the case, how do you even know that you received anything for your money? After all, with Quantum Easing, nobody would have to be taxed to pay for everything government supplies. Why not simply buy what you want? If you don't pay, you don't get to use it... like toll roads, for example... so that you can do a proper accounting.

2. "If you are living by your self in Himalayas or woods and not using or getting the benefit of any of the following perks," then you are being taxed by all of the work you have to do to so live. All that buying what you get is, is people specializing in an area, and getting paid for their specialized product or service. Why not government? so we can see where the money is going, and buy somewhere else if government can't keep their costs low enough?

Taxation is theft, but at least slavery.

Cool

JSRAW

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Yes, if you are using roads, electricity, gas, medical or any kind of facility, you come under tax bracket etc and not paying your taxes then you are a thief. period

If you are living by your self in Himalayas or woods and not using or getting the benefit of any of the following perks then it's not theft.

KingScorpio

sr. member

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jes abandon the government, the sooner the better, you savages will see the consequences if foreign countries will consider your "region" to be wilderness.

not to mention that the society changes into a form of not trusting each other anymore.

free markets are an illusion

coolcoinz

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Quote from: easemypain on February 21, 2019, 09:57:18 AM

Theft is taking property (ies) without the legal authority to do so. Of course, taxation is approved by law and therefore is not theft.

Some people call it theft may be because they are forced to give up money that they would not otherwise want to give.

Legal authority means nothing if the thief can set their own laws. One of the most important principles of the law is equality, which doesn't exist when you're confronted with the the lawgiver. What would you say if I had the authority to set the law and made it so that you owe me money every year at 1% of your income? You wouldn't be to happy, but it might find it acceptable. The next year it would be 2%, and so on. At which point do you really start fighting it? When they decide that you owe them 10%, 20%, or maybe 50%? Many countries ramp up taxation and people are too scared to say enough.

easemypain

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Theft is taking property (ies) without the legal authority to do so. Of course, taxation is approved by law and therefore is not theft.

Some people call it theft may be because they are forced to give up money that they would not otherwise want to give.

BADecker

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Quote from: mOgliE on February 20, 2019, 11:05:12 AM

Quote from: BADecker on February 20, 2019, 11:02:44 AM

If you go to Walmart to buy something, does Walmart force a lot of things on you that you don't want? Do they take your money without giving you what you want?

Yeah that's basically how advertisement works.

And there are tons of people, many right in this thread, who have been convinced by government's tax talk, that we need taxes, when we would be better without them.

Cool

mOgliE

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Quote from: BADecker on February 20, 2019, 11:02:44 AM

If you go to Walmart to buy something, does Walmart force a lot of things on you that you don't want? Do they take your money without giving you what you want?

Yeah that's basically how advertisement works.

BADecker

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Activity: 3990

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Quote from: Chikitita2004 on February 20, 2019, 07:14:32 AM

I dont think so. No taxation, there will be no way a nation can stand. No means to start a new project, no means to finace soldiers protecting the country, public schools and other public institutions for thr benefits of its citizens. No taxation, I dont know how a country could continue.

If you go to Walmart to buy something, does Walmart force a lot of things on you that you don't want? Do they take your money without giving you what you want?

Anybody who thinks that government has to tax us to be successful, is simply not looking at most of the picture. Rather than being taxed by government, let government offer their services to us, so that we can buy what we want from them. If they would do that, people would be so happy with government that they would GIVE government the same amounts as taxes and more.

Do we need a military? If we don't have government, the thing we do is get together and buy mercenaries when we need a military. How do we know that this can be successful? Because that is how all the governments raised their first military... through hiring mercenaries from the general populace or other countries.

It's only after governments became strong that they started to used the military to enforce taxation... taxation, which is really slavery.

We don't need taxation. It is taxation that is slowing down progress. It is taxation that is making slaves of the people.

Look in the dictionary. The prefix "pro" is opposite of the prefix "con"... just as progress is opposite of congress.

Cool

Chikitita2004

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I dont think so. No taxation, there will be no way a nation can stand. No means to start a new project, no means to finace soldiers protecting the country, public schools and other public institutions for thr benefits of its citizens. No taxation, I dont know how a country could continue.

coolcoinz

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As long as there's income tax I'm going to keep saying that it's theft. Income tax is incredibly unjust and should be abolished. VAT is probably the most just out of the taxes that you can pay (if you can call a tax just at all) because it takes advantage of the economy and incentivises it to grow. The more people earn the more they spend every day and the more money ends up back in the governments pocket. If the government provides aid to businesses and makes sure it's easy for people to make money under its wing, they will reward it.
As for spending, this should be localized as much as possible so that your taxes are spend directly on the things around you. This makes people see and feel the positive effects of taxation. If taxes are being pocketed by fat pigs in the capital it's all for nothing.
In short, taxation should be minimal and just. Politicians should get minimum wages. Being a civil servant is a privilege, not an entitlement.

ASHLIUSZ

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Very few governments have taxed on everything in a precise manner with a clear vision of helping the country's citizen with the earning got through taxes. When governments doesn't tax in the right way it truly affect the common people and the citizens themselves intend to get out of taxation.

bitmedia

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BitMedia.IO

No - if they solve social problems.
Yes - if they solve anything...

saffira

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Tax is our obligation in our government. But, for me it depends on how they use it. It just happen to be a theft when corruption happens. If collecting tax has a good purpose concerning the needs of the society, then there is no problem. I still believe that it is a must.

BADecker

legendary

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Do you want to beat the US and State courts regarding many laws, including income taxes? Here's how.

1. Tell your governmental accuser that you believe that you haven't broken any law (when they accuse you).

2. If they maintain an arrest warrant or certain other paperwork against you, rather than cancelling their "stuff" they are doing against you, they are kidnapping you, or attempted kidnap.

3. Under "Section 241," kidnapping is criminal intent on the part of the government people. Criminal intent in this way is something that has no statute of limitations.

4. File a complaint/claim against them, requesting the death penalty for the government agent/official. Take your time, because you have the documentation proving the things that they did or attempted to do to you... and there is no statute of limitations.

There is simple law to back this all up. It's something that is newly put together, even though the parts have been there for many years... as far back as the mid 1800s. Listen to https://www.talkshoe.com/episode/6074645.

Cool

Tope559

jr. member

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I think a country where the tax is use to develop and provide social amenities such as water, good road and health for the people taxation is not their. But a country where corruption dwell the taxation is their because the government will collect it and there are nothing to show for it.

Elwar

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Viva Ut Vivas

Quote from: BADecker on November 26, 2018, 08:06:59 AM

Quote from: Elwar on November 26, 2018, 06:55:17 AM

Quote from: BADecker on November 25, 2018, 03:41:24 PM

Quote from: cryptohunter on November 24, 2018, 11:10:28 AM

Quote from: Elwar on November 24, 2018, 12:45:35 AM

I also see seasteading as the solution for those that want to "leave the island". This also we will wait and see.

I agree with all of this entirely.

I wonder if finding large areas of land under very shallow water is the next big thing. So long as it is at least 12miles from land I think that you can develop it. I guess though you would need to have a considerable army or deterrent if you did start to construct something of real value. I wonder what it would take to be a recognised sovereign state.

I don't think as yet there is enough motivation for this to take off in a huge way.

I wonder what about just a GIANT ship. I know where the boat is constructed or registered when built is then where the boat is tied to and laws from that country then apply. However one possibility would perhaps be to build just one man made island and construct boats from there. I guess I only mention giant boats as an alternative over man made islands since I would expect they could cost less, you could make as many as required. Also with these man made islands that i have seen so far (not that many) they do look rather flat and vulnerable to big storms? With advanced weather prediction I guess it could be possible to move your giant ship out of the way. The entire thing would need to be as solar powered as possible for sure. So I am not even sure for such a huge vessel you could capture/store anywhere near enough solar power to propel the ship and supply the population with the energy they need. I mean it could be possible.

If you could build a sea island though that could be a sovereign state that is recognised it would be very interesting. I mean by default I would have thought if it were more than 12 miles from any coast it would automatically be self governing. I am surprised some billionaires have not tried this already. To construct your very own country that has it's own sovereignty you would imagine would be very tempting.

Ha sorry I am going off topic. Interesting topic for sure though.

This form of taxation isn't theft. What taxation am I talking about? It won't be easy developing seasteading, underwater based islands, and other forms of freedom in the oceans. In fact, you will be taxed to the limits of your strength trying to develop these things.

Just ask Joe Quirk at Seasteading.org.

Cool

I know Joe. It is true that you will pay more than you pay on land just as you do with a boat. But you are likely going to pay less than ocean front property on land and less than a boat.

I don't disagree at all. There are advantages and disadvantages to paying formal taxes any way you go about it.

In the USA, if you want to pay less formal tax, you have to go under the table. There are costs for doing it this way... costs that are essentially taxes.

OR, you have to take some IRS agents to court the right way. There is expense to finding out what the right way is, and to manipulating some judges into a corner where they won't be unjust. And if you lose, the tax is even higher... although it isn't called a tax.

Seasteading is a fun choice to make. It involves being taxed in the work you have to do to make it happen. But it is a freedom-gaining taxation. And for your kids and grandkids, it just might be a much more meaningful freedom... if you do it the right way, so that the seasteading community doesn't get taken over by a bunch of criminals who manipulate their way into the seasteading government, just to tax seasteading people more.

Cool

EDIT: Does seasteading have torpedo protection?

I think the poor assumption of seasteading is seeing it as a single entity as opposed to a grouping of individuals. Individuals that can move their homes if they don't like their neighbors. Being taken over would be as easy as scooping up oil floating on water with your hand.

You should not ask if the seasteaders are protected against torpedos...more importantly would be are those that would torpedo a seastead protected from hundreds of underwater drones equipped with their own torpedos.

Pinkris128

sr. member

Activity: 812

Merit: 262

Quote from: Elwar on November 18, 2018, 11:55:37 AM

Quote from: Cloudy on November 18, 2018, 10:20:52 AM

Quote from: ToRs on November 18, 2018, 09:58:02 AM

Taxation is not theft. Taxation is the dues for semi-mandatory membership to an enormous resource cooperative. How quickly anarcho-anythingists forget the simple joy of having flush toilets. Now, what happens to those dues AFTER collection – that's theft. And who's doing the thieving?
.. Anarcho-capitalists. Yeah, good luck with all that "liberty" when there's no authority to stop them from enslaving you completely.

they seem to think that private companies would be better as if they wouldn't do something similar or worse like pay to just use the bathroom in the first place then make you pay to flush it

But you would at least have a choice in what you're paying for.

I do not see much value in my contributions toward phosphorous bombing women and children in some far off place.

Sad but its becoming true this day, tax was not properly used by the government. It goes to their pockets and for the people and the society. Low quality of production by them and they only give low fund for one project. Thats why many tax payer become mad because their money goes to nonsense things.

BADecker

legendary

Activity: 3990

Merit: 1385

Quote from: Elwar on November 26, 2018, 06:55:17 AM

Quote from: BADecker on November 25, 2018, 03:41:24 PM

Quote from: cryptohunter on November 24, 2018, 11:10:28 AM

Quote from: Elwar on November 24, 2018, 12:45:35 AM

I also see seasteading as the solution for those that want to "leave the island". This also we will wait and see.

I agree with all of this entirely.

I wonder if finding large areas of land under very shallow water is the next big thing. So long as it is at least 12miles from land I think that you can develop it. I guess though you would need to have a considerable army or deterrent if you did start to construct something of real value. I wonder what it would take to be a recognised sovereign state.

I don't think as yet there is enough motivation for this to take off in a huge way.

I wonder what about just a GIANT ship. I know where the boat is constructed or registered when built is then where the boat is tied to and laws from that country then apply. However one possibility would perhaps be to build just one man made island and construct boats from there. I guess I only mention giant boats as an alternative over man made islands since I would expect they could cost less, you could make as many as required. Also with these man made islands that i have seen so far (not that many) they do look rather flat and vulnerable to big storms? With advanced weather prediction I guess it could be possible to move your giant ship out of the way. The entire thing would need to be as solar powered as possible for sure. So I am not even sure for such a huge vessel you could capture/store anywhere near enough solar power to propel the ship and supply the population with the energy they need. I mean it could be possible.

If you could build a sea island though that could be a sovereign state that is recognised it would be very interesting. I mean by default I would have thought if it were more than 12 miles from any coast it would automatically be self governing. I am surprised some billionaires have not tried this already. To construct your very own country that has it's own sovereignty you would imagine would be very tempting.

Ha sorry I am going off topic. Interesting topic for sure though.

This form of taxation isn't theft. What taxation am I talking about? It won't be easy developing seasteading, underwater based islands, and other forms of freedom in the oceans. In fact, you will be taxed to the limits of your strength trying to develop these things.

Just ask Joe Quirk at Seasteading.org.

Cool

I know Joe. It is true that you will pay more than you pay on land just as you do with a boat. But you are likely going to pay less than ocean front property on land and less than a boat.

I don't disagree at all. There are advantages and disadvantages to paying formal taxes any way you go about it.

In the USA, if you want to pay less formal tax, you have to go under the table. There are costs for doing it this way... costs that are essentially taxes.

OR, you have to take some IRS agents to court the right way. There is expense to finding out what the right way is, and to manipulating some judges into a corner where they won't be unjust. And if you lose, the tax is even higher... although it isn't called a tax.

Seasteading is a fun choice to make. It involves being taxed in the work you have to do to make it happen. But it is a freedom-gaining taxation. And for your kids and grandkids, it just might be a much more meaningful freedom... if you do it the right way, so that the seasteading community doesn't get taken over by a bunch of criminals who manipulate their way into the seasteading government, just to tax seasteading people more.

Cool

EDIT: Does seasteading have torpedo protection?

Elwar

legendary

Activity: 3598

Merit: 2386

Viva Ut Vivas

Quote from: BADecker on November 25, 2018, 03:41:24 PM

Quote from: cryptohunter on November 24, 2018, 11:10:28 AM

Quote from: Elwar on November 24, 2018, 12:45:35 AM

I also see seasteading as the solution for those that want to "leave the island". This also we will wait and see.

I agree with all of this entirely.

I wonder if finding large areas of land under very shallow water is the next big thing. So long as it is at least 12miles from land I think that you can develop it. I guess though you would need to have a considerable army or deterrent if you did start to construct something of real value. I wonder what it would take to be a recognised sovereign state.

I don't think as yet there is enough motivation for this to take off in a huge way.

I wonder what about just a GIANT ship. I know where the boat is constructed or registered when built is then where the boat is tied to and laws from that country then apply. However one possibility would perhaps be to build just one man made island and construct boats from there. I guess I only mention giant boats as an alternative over man made islands since I would expect they could cost less, you could make as many as required. Also with these man made islands that i have seen so far (not that many) they do look rather flat and vulnerable to big storms? With advanced weather prediction I guess it could be possible to move your giant ship out of the way. The entire thing would need to be as solar powered as possible for sure. So I am not even sure for such a huge vessel you could capture/store anywhere near enough solar power to propel the ship and supply the population with the energy they need. I mean it could be possible.

If you could build a sea island though that could be a sovereign state that is recognised it would be very interesting. I mean by default I would have thought if it were more than 12 miles from any coast it would automatically be self governing. I am surprised some billionaires have not tried this already. To construct your very own country that has it's own sovereignty you would imagine would be very tempting.

Ha sorry I am going off topic. Interesting topic for sure though.

This form of taxation isn't theft. What taxation am I talking about? It won't be easy developing seasteading, underwater based islands, and other forms of freedom in the oceans. In fact, you will be taxed to the limits of your strength trying to develop these things.

Just ask Joe Quirk at Seasteading.org.

Cool

I know Joe. It is true that you will pay more than you pay on land just as you do with a boat. But you are likely going to pay less than ocean front property on land and less than a boat.

BADecker

legendary

Activity: 3990

Merit: 1385

Quote from: cryptohunter on November 24, 2018, 11:10:28 AM

Quote from: Elwar on November 24, 2018, 12:45:35 AM

I also see seasteading as the solution for those that want to "leave the island". This also we will wait and see.

I agree with all of this entirely.

I wonder if finding large areas of land under very shallow water is the next big thing. So long as it is at least 12miles from land I think that you can develop it. I guess though you would need to have a considerable army or deterrent if you did start to construct something of real value. I wonder what it would take to be a recognised sovereign state.

I don't think as yet there is enough motivation for this to take off in a huge way.

I wonder what about just a GIANT ship. I know where the boat is constructed or registered when built is then where the boat is tied to and laws from that country then apply. However one possibility would perhaps be to build just one man made island and construct boats from there. I guess I only mention giant boats as an alternative over man made islands since I would expect they could cost less, you could make as many as required. Also with these man made islands that i have seen so far (not that many) they do look rather flat and vulnerable to big storms? With advanced weather prediction I guess it could be possible to move your giant ship out of the way. The entire thing would need to be as solar powered as possible for sure. So I am not even sure for such a huge vessel you could capture/store anywhere near enough solar power to propel the ship and supply the population with the energy they need. I mean it could be possible.

If you could build a sea island though that could be a sovereign state that is recognised it would be very interesting. I mean by default I would have thought if it were more than 12 miles from any coast it would automatically be self governing. I am surprised some billionaires have not tried this already. To construct your very own country that has it's own sovereignty you would imagine would be very tempting.

Ha sorry I am going off topic. Interesting topic for sure though.

This form of taxation isn't theft. What taxation am I talking about? It won't be easy developing seasteading, underwater based islands, and other forms of freedom in the oceans. In fact, you will be taxed to the limits of your strength trying to develop these things.

Just ask Joe Quirk at Seasteading.org.

Cool

Topic: Is taxation theft? (Read 75995 times)