Topic: Is taxation theft? (Read 2224 times)

I will borrow your words that taxation is a necessary evil that has to be done for the state to functional exist and carry out the primary responsibility of protecting lives and properties of the citizens so tax has to be paid from the side of the citizens who are protected them and there business from external agrisors so I am of the view that taxation is not a theft.

Morals talking time.

Surely a matter of topic that has concerned many philosophers and intellectuals. I imagine most of (genuine) Bitcoiners be like "back-to-the-landers", libertarians, with desire to be self-sufficient. However, objectively speaking, taxation is theft. It's taking someone's property without their consent, and it is compulsory. It very much fits the definition of theft, even though you can find it slightly altered in other sources, like the Cambridge dictionary ("the crime of illegally taking something that belongs to someone else")

(That's right dear reader, that was a clickbait!)

The question is rather: Is taxation justifiable theft? A necessary evil? Libertarians tend to argue that it's wrong regardless the intentions. Taking someone's property without their permission is unethical, no matter how good you want to do with it. Others, who support social contract theory, argue that it's necessary and should be seen as "voluntary obligation".

There is no right or wrong answer (un)fortunately. Feel free to speak out loud.

---

My stance on this is that both "groups" bring some compelling arguments on the table, in favor of their ideology. I don't know. I think there's a place where we draw the line. For example, nowadays, I think we've crossed that line (towards more government of course). I don't think we need that much government into the markets.

I also feel really stupid when I see politicians talking about taxing gains from cryptocurrencies, with phrases like "unhosted wallets", or by attacking privacy services. They talk as if privacy invasion is a requirement, or "obligation" as per the social contract theory. I think this really crosses the line.

Where ever you are forced to buy, give or aquire something rather of your free will, yes that is theft.

Gov forces you to give them $$$$ or they use violence against you, so thats theft.

Is it really against your consent though? They didn't take the taxes without you knowing. Before any tax is passed or increased the public is notified. So I guess we can take the issue of theft away.

Taxation becomes wrong when it becomes extreme and when the government don't make good use of the taxes. In my opinion, taxes are like payments to the government so they'll be able to continue providing what they're supposed to provide for their citizens. Where it becomes wrong is when you pay your taxes yet don't get anything in return.

Taxing gains from cryptocurrencies is extreme to me too and I agree that it crosses the line. In that case, we can say that they're overstepping. The fact that they're in charge of the citizens of their country doesn't mean the citizens should have no power over themselves. They should have a right to privacy.

Tax is theft when it is overly implemented, it does not in any way support the poor or make life better for them.

It makes life worse for those below average. 

If the heavy tax imposed were cut out for those average and well to do people, it would have been less intimidating.

The taxes are scary, and it has turned theft in my own understanding and that is why I strive so much to get my incomes from investments and working for companies remotely, so the government does not have a direct grasp on my finances.

The tax system is designed to steal from the average and make the rich richer. That's the design, which is off the book. How can someone be paying tax from the little profit that you are making from your business, and the government will not use that money to do what they promised, and you will not consider it as theft?
 
You pay tax for them to provide good security, yet you still hire others for such service because they are incompetent. Medically, we still pay for that from other aspects, not because we prefer luxury but because the medical centres are not working and the staff there are not professional. Should we still consider the tax system not to be a means to steal from the poor?

Taxes are a crime in poor countries because politicians use collected taxes for their own benefit, to build a penthouse, buy an expensive car, fly with a private jet and build a bright future for their family members and relatives. This destroys the country and spreads hopelessness in people. I understand it, when I talk with people about taxes, everyone tells me that it shouldn't be paid and that it's theft but at the same time, I ask myself, if we want to become a successful country like the Netherlands, Luxembourg and etc, then how are we gonna achieve it without paying taxes? As far as I know, people in these countries pay very high taxes while in my country taxes are 20% and people find it super high (if you ask a random guy why Europeans live well, they'll answer you that in Europe they won't be paying taxes but they don't know what's reality, so talk out of thin air).
In the end, I came to the conclusion that without taxes, we can't build a good country but how should we fix this situation? Government is corrupt and people don't want to pay, even if the government changes, people still fear that another government will spend collected taxes for their own benefit. There is hopelessness, lack of honesty and lack of education, that's bad.

People are not afraid of paying taxes, what they are afraid of is the government using that tax money for the wrong purposes. In third world countries, most governments use taxes to enrich themselves instead of using taxes to create a stable economy that benefits everyone. I don't think anyone would be generous enough to know this but still pay taxes to the government.

I'm not saying that tax protesters are right, but they also have reasons for not wanting to pay taxes. If the governments of every country acted like the governments of developed countries, they could create jobs, stabilize prices...and try to bring stability to people's lives. I believe that people will be willing and eager to pay taxes instead of evading taxes as they are doing now.

Well said, you are one of the few people here who see things the way they should, in an economic way. Many are just being overbearing and unreasonable, if the world follows their ideas, the security and economy will collapse, but they know nothing about these implications. Taxes are crucial and the countries that pay more taxes are the better developed countries in the world. However, the government must be up and doing, they must be made accountable because if people are paying taxes and it is not used properly, it's a problem on its own. This is the reason why many African countries wallow in poverty and underdevelopment.

Effective taxation is part of the reason that most developed economies, like the ones in Europe, are able to exist and flourish so much. People have collectively pooled their resources and trust the government institutions enough to disperse it effectively. This in theory allows you to wield a lot more power as a buyer and push down the prices charged in all sorts of areas. A seller will love government contracts because they'll be able to push through orders for hundreds of thousands or millions of units rather than hundreds that a single buyer might put in for an order.

In first world countries the pros may outweigh cons, but in third world countries the cons prevail. Besides paying expensive taxes, we also don't have access to quality services which are supposed to be destined to everyone. Health and education are a must and for "free", but in reality these services are terrible. There isn't much difference from a public school to a prison, and there isn't much difference from a public hospital to a slaughterhouse, especially in big urban centers.

We pay EU's taxes and receive Sierra Leone's services on the other hand. Anyway, I don't think it's exactly a fault of the tax system. The real problem are the people in charge of it. In Europe it works nicely, but here it doesn't. And even if we had a system closer to the North American one, more focused on private services, it would still not work here, because once again, the problem are the people, not the system being used.

Every systems are perfect in theory, considering people are going to cooperate with them.

Effective taxation is part of the reason that most developed economies, like the ones in Europe, are able to exist and flourish so much. People have collectively pooled their resources and trust the government institutions enough to disperse it effectively. This in theory allows you to wield a lot more power as a buyer and push down the prices charged in all sorts of areas. A seller will love government contracts because they'll be able to push through orders for hundreds of thousands or millions of units rather than hundreds that a single buyer might put in for an order.

In first world countries the pros may outweigh cons, but in third world countries the cons prevail. Besides paying expensive taxes, we also don't have access to quality services which are supposed to be destined to everyone. Health and education are a must and for "free", but in reality these services are terrible. There isn't much difference from a public school to a prison, and there isn't much difference from a public hospital to a slaughterhouse, especially in big urban centers.

We pay EU's taxes and receive Sierra Leone's services on the other hand. Anyway, I don't think it's exactly a fault of the tax system. The real problem are the people in charge of it. In Europe it works nicely, but here it doesn't. And even if we had a system closer to the North American one, more focused on private services, it would still not work here, because once again, the problem are the people, not the system being used.

Every systems are perfect in theory, considering people are going to cooperate with them.

Taxes are theft under bad government, Dictatorship is a good form of governance under a good candidate.
I'll talk from the perspective of EU. There are very high taxes in EU but that's not very bad. In EU, you get free healthcare, which isn't definitely a perfect because of waiting lists but emergency cases are solved well and it doesn't cost you hundreds of thousands of dollars to deal with the health issue, you get it fixed for free and level of medicine is quite high here. Another and one of the biggest benefit of high taxes is free education that we get in Europe. Free and high quality education means a better quality of life for everyone. These high taxes also mean that if you lose your job, you aren't automatically homeless person, the government pays you some money for a long period of time to take care of things. Do politicians use these high taxes for their own benefits? Yes, 100%. Do some people abuse it? Yes, 100% but overall, pros outweigh cons.

True. Taxes are important to regulate an economy, and it is beneficial when a good government is managing it. But with a bad government taxes are just a means to embezzle funds from all the citizens. What should matter in taxes is how fair it was collected and what it was spent on to better the country. This is what the citizens don't see that is there are complaints everywhere in the world. If I live in a country where I pay huge taxes, but my rent is affordable, I have steady electricity by spending less on the bills. In general, I meant if the economy is good, but the tax is huge I won't bother about how high it is. I will pay it. As long as things are better and there are lots of job opportunities.