Is taxation theft? - page 4. | Bitcointalksearch.org

Akbarkoe

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Quote from: EFS on October 20, 2024, 11:53:30 AM

Tax is the main source of revenue for the state. To call tax theft is in fact to reject the state. Here one can enter into a philosophical debate about what the state is and whether it is necessary. This has been debated for thousands of years.
Whether we like it or not, we live in a system where states exist and collect taxes. What we can do about this is to support parties that claim to collect less taxes in elections and avoid taxes as much as possible. Because I don't think we will live long enough to see this system radically changed.

Taxes will not be said to be open theft if the tax results are returned for the benefit of the community, economic development, infrastructure development and others for state development, but the tax will be considered as theft if the government is to enrich themselves.

EFS

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Tax is the main source of revenue for the state. To call tax theft is in fact to reject the state. Here one can enter into a philosophical debate about what the state is and whether it is necessary. This has been debated for thousands of years.
Whether we like it or not, we live in a system where states exist and collect taxes. What we can do about this is to support parties that claim to collect less taxes in elections and avoid taxes as much as possible. Because I don't think we will live long enough to see this system radically changed.

YOSHIE

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Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on June 25, 2024, 01:35:17 PM

Is taxation theft?

If you are talking about taxes, if taxes have to be called theft, I have to support the philosophy which states that this is true and is also based on the view of taxes as an offense committed by individuals who violate the principle of non-aggression, I dare say that taxes are immoral and taxes are levies that are considered radical.

In my opinion, the phrase taxation can be said to be theft, now try to compare several cases regarding taxation, if the government carries out 'tax collection' here it is clear that money is being taken from the government towards its citizens and every citizen must pay if they are not agentsthe secret will come and catch you lock you up in a cage, Is that not theft, clearly it is theft, you buy a car with your own money, build a house with your own money, the taxes are taken without permission, because taxation is theoretically legalized by the government which is actually illegal, but because the government levies it, it becomes legal, in fact it is theft.

I would say it's theft and yes.

qurbanshah02

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Quote from: jaberwock on October 17, 2024, 03:15:22 PM

Quote from: EarnOnVictor on October 15, 2024, 10:11:09 AM

I love the first line point, but the subsequent ones are not without some errors as far as I am concerned. Fine, it's ugly behaviour for the government not to use the national wealth of the nation rightly but this can't be related to the tax itself but the bad behaviour of the government. So, it is the government you should call theives and not the context "tax" in all considerations.

Taxes and other government revenues means are the main sustenance of the nation, I wonder how the nation will look like if the government can't fulfil its local and international obligations for the shortage of money, they have to make people contribute. Some countries are so disadvantaged to the point that they do not have much lands and natural resourses, so if their government did not collect tax, what will the security, education and healthcare system be like, not to mention others.

First of all, there are some nations which are so poor that they can't even join some summits, we have seen plenty of poor nations and we know how that goes. Secondly, nobody says we shouldn't pay ANY taxes, the idea is what if we are paying way more than we should? Lets be honest and realize some of the taxes that we pay, gets lost along the way.

This doesn't have to be pocketed directly by politicians, they could for example hire their brother in law to build a bridge, the bridge costs the brother in law to build 100 million, but they charge a billion to the government, when they could have profited with 200. See how theft happens? The citizens of a nation should be able to ask where their money goes and if there is too many corrupt officials who do this. So thinking, if 50% of our money goes to corruption, then we could literally pay half of the taxes we are paying and get the same type of government if nobody was corrupt, seems like a good idea isn't it?

If you see, where this life started, it also started from poverty. If someone is poor, he should try to become rich.Many countries have poverty but they cannot develop. But the countries that are good and rich also have poverty, but there the rulers do not eliminate this poverty. Why so?The countries that are rich should remove the poverty of the poor country while being humane.No, this is wrong, why forget them? We pay taxes so that the government treats us well and fixes what is wrong in this country.Who builds roads in the country with their own money, these are things that the country has to lend, they give it through people's money, which is called tax today.I am not happy with such a government nor do I support them. Because I call them carpets, they cheat the country because they treat poor people's money as their own money.

uneng

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Quote from: jaberwock on October 17, 2024, 03:15:22 PM

This doesn't have to be pocketed directly by politicians, they could for example hire their brother in law to build a bridge, the bridge costs the brother in law to build 100 million, but they charge a billion to the government, when they could have profited with 200. See how theft happens? The citizens of a nation should be able to ask where their money goes and if there is too many corrupt officials who do this. So thinking, if 50% of our money goes to corruption, then we could literally pay half of the taxes we are paying and get the same type of government if nobody was corrupt, seems like a good idea isn't it?

That is the reason why I consider taxation theft. I would be in agreement if the money was going entirely to pay for the costs of infrastructure and public services, but that is not what happens for real. And taxation is constantly being raised, because the government doesn't stop creating new job spots for the "friends of the king" and raising their wages, besides them being greedy corrupt individuals who want bigger slices of the cake each new day through the method you mentioned above.

They simply don't care if the average citizen is able to thrive along his life. So I conclude we are by ourselves, and in order to improve our life quality during our existence in this world, we have to avoid paying most tributes as possible to the government. Otherwise, we are going to live only to maintain the system, like a slave. I think it is not fair to live like that, even though they say to the population the fairest thing to do is to pay all the tributes they are demanding.

Oluwa-btc

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Quote from: Alpha Marine on June 25, 2024, 02:19:25 PM

Taxing gains from cryptocurrencies is extreme to me too and I agree that it crosses the line. In that case, we can say that they're overstepping. The fact that they're in charge of the citizens of their country doesn't mean the citizens should have no power over themselves. They should have a right to privacy.

I agree to that, taxes should be with understanding between the two parties but in most cases I think it's not cause what the government do is make decisions that they can't carry on anytime soon leaving the masses in dilusion and be left with paying up taxes on specific basis, meanwhile the reasons why the taxes are allocated are not being exercised which is bad and with this I think it's theft on the higher notes cause what's to be done with the tax allocations are not done and in most cases taxes are not being notified to the users .

jaberwock

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Quote from: EarnOnVictor on October 15, 2024, 10:11:09 AM

I love the first line point, but the subsequent ones are not without some errors as far as I am concerned. Fine, it's ugly behaviour for the government not to use the national wealth of the nation rightly but this can't be related to the tax itself but the bad behaviour of the government. So, it is the government you should call theives and not the context "tax" in all considerations.

Taxes and other government revenues means are the main sustenance of the nation, I wonder how the nation will look like if the government can't fulfil its local and international obligations for the shortage of money, they have to make people contribute. Some countries are so disadvantaged to the point that they do not have much lands and natural resourses, so if their government did not collect tax, what will the security, education and healthcare system be like, not to mention others.

First of all, there are some nations which are so poor that they can't even join some summits, we have seen plenty of poor nations and we know how that goes. Secondly, nobody says we shouldn't pay ANY taxes, the idea is what if we are paying way more than we should? Lets be honest and realize some of the taxes that we pay, gets lost along the way.

This doesn't have to be pocketed directly by politicians, they could for example hire their brother in law to build a bridge, the bridge costs the brother in law to build 100 million, but they charge a billion to the government, when they could have profited with 200. See how theft happens? The citizens of a nation should be able to ask where their money goes and if there is too many corrupt officials who do this. So thinking, if 50% of our money goes to corruption, then we could literally pay half of the taxes we are paying and get the same type of government if nobody was corrupt, seems like a good idea isn't it?

Mame89

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Taxes can indeed be called theft if not managed properly by a country, but taxes are also something good for a country if used properly because there are many benefits if you pay them. Because of course with tax money the country uses it to finance various services funded by the community, including the armed forces, public schools, parks, highways, and police and even firefighters, as well as pension and public health programs.

So the benefits of taxes are actually good from the people's money being used back for the people, it is no wonder that many countries with the highest taxes are more advanced and prosperous than countries with low taxes. Simply put, with the taxes given, the country becomes strong and with taxes the country can stand strong.

It's just that sometimes there are corrupt officials or government agencies who embezzle tax money which makes people reluctant to pay taxes and that happens in many countries, and every country is firm that if you don't pay taxes then there will be criminal sanctions for breaking the law. I personally don't consider taxes as theft because basically taxes are for those of us who enjoy them such as public facilities, transportation and others.

Yucky

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Quote from: btc78 on October 14, 2024, 06:20:18 AM

We are a community so I think yes we all should contribute to the betterment of the society.

Taxation is only theft if it is used by government officials for their own personal benefit.

I agree with you. Since the aim of tax is for the general good, for infrastructure, and education, more like we are giving back to society since you are part of the society, it's not theft. Besides, tax is not taken from students or those who are not working. It's when you get into a system where you earn monthly income that you are shortlisted for paying tax. As long as tax is being paid according to how you earn, then it's okay to just let it slide.

The only issue is when you are paying tax and you are not seeing the effect of the tax that you are paying. Roads are bad, schools are terrible, and insecurity everywhere. That's the issue. The issue is how the tax is being handled by those in government. The issue is government officials looting the tax.

So to me, it's not theft. Some of us pay tithe in our place of worship, and we do some personal projects for our personal reasons as a way of giving back to the community. Some people have charity organizations. So giving back to the country where you stay and earn is not theft.
But how it's being handled by those you trust with your tax.

JeffBrad12

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Quote from: ml9999 on October 16, 2024, 11:03:49 PM

Some taxation is definitely justifiable, as ideally you pay taxes in exchange for government-provided security and services. If you say that the government can't take your money without consent, then logically you should not get to live in a country with secure borders without the government's express approval either. However, if abused, taxation can become theft, when governments use it to enrich themselves and consolidate wealth rather than to provide a basic functioning society.

a good take, I personally have no problem at all paying taxes if I know the taxes I paid used for betterment of the country, but when it's just being misused, some part of me feels disappointed, well nothing I can do about it, just gonna pay the next taxes, as a good law abiding citizen, but personally, I guess with how all the infrastructure that have been built I guess paying taxes still feels okay and not exactly theft.

really hopeful that government around the world could always utilize the taxes for good thing like social welfare, universal insurance and so on, lessen the burden of the law abiding citizen.

philipma1957

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Quote from: m2017 on October 16, 2024, 12:08:37 PM

"Is taxation theft?" - This looks more like robbery than theft, because if taxes are not paid, then "forceful action" will follow.

Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on June 25, 2024, 01:35:17 PM

I also feel really stupid when I see politicians talking about taxing gains from cryptocurrencies, with phrases like "unhosted wallets", or by attacking privacy services. They talk as if privacy invasion is a requirement, or "obligation" as per the social contract theory. I think this really crosses the line.

Statements by politicians cross the line of reason when they try to squeeze money out of bitcoiners under any pretext.

in the usa property tax is based on the concept of extortion and protection rackets.

you got a nice place we will protect it for you (police and firemen)

but if you don't pay for the protection we will take it from you (extortion)

other taxes are different.

ml9999

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Some taxation is definitely justifiable, as ideally you pay taxes in exchange for government-provided security and services. If you say that the government can't take your money without consent, then logically you should not get to live in a country with secure borders without the government's express approval either. However, if abused, taxation can become theft, when governments use it to enrich themselves and consolidate wealth rather than to provide a basic functioning society.

m2017

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"Is taxation theft?" - This looks more like robbery than theft, because if taxes are not paid, then "forceful action" will follow.

Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on June 25, 2024, 01:35:17 PM

I also feel really stupid when I see politicians talking about taxing gains from cryptocurrencies, with phrases like "unhosted wallets", or by attacking privacy services. They talk as if privacy invasion is a requirement, or "obligation" as per the social contract theory. I think this really crosses the line.

Statements by politicians cross the line of reason when they try to squeeze money out of bitcoiners under any pretext.

Blackchully

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AI is a great gift to humanity but the creators of it also put out the notion and mindsets that terrifies us. Truly it improved a Lot for humans but the question is that is it worth it?….because of Ai originality and authenticity in a lot of things has dropped and that is a major problem that we overlook. The fact is it will keep getting modified and improvements on it will increase so will the creativity and thinking capabilities of those who excessively depend on it will also depreciate, it’s a give and take situation and a few years from now we don’t know what the situation will look like entirely, but to be very honest I don’t think it’s worth it.

Bloodseekers

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Quote from: ndutndut on October 15, 2024, 03:20:59 PM

Quote from: btc78 on October 14, 2024, 06:20:18 AM

We are a community so I think yes we all should contribute to the betterment of the society.

Taxation is only theft if it is used by government officials for their own personal benefit. I also think the system itself needs a refix to make it fairer and better but the point stil stands. There are so many corruption inside the system and the poor is suffering. Meanwhile the rich people can just avoid taxation with no repercussions. Now that is theft.

Yes, that's right. A country must have taxes in order to finance public interests, including economic development. It is also done so that many jobs are created, so that with many jobs, people's income can be distributed evenly. Not to mention infrastructure, health, and so on. So it is true as you said in community life it is very important for all of us to contribute to the progress of a country, especially society. In other words, the purpose of taxation is for the sustainability of a country and all development carried out for the welfare of society.

It's just that in many countries taxation has become a field for officials to commit corruption so that it is very far from the purpose of taxation itself. So it is not surprising that many people think that taxation is legalized theft. This is very reasonable to say because it is very sad that in almost all countries tax money is not used properly and as you said again many rich people avoid taxes and even officials do the same. Actually the purpose of tax is good, so taxes should be implemented according to their purpose and if they violate anyone's rights from the tax money, they should be imprisoned or given severe punishment.

It is true that the money collected from taxes will be used for the public interest if it can be realized properly, but when officials do not use the money collected from taxes properly and appropriately, we can see many government services that are indeed not feasible because the money collected from taxes is not used properly, but if the money generated from taxes can be used properly, I think we can see a prosperous society because the government has allocated tax funds to things that are really needed by many people.

If a country does not have good tax management, it will certainly lose the trust of the community to pay it, but because the punishment given for violations committed by these officials is not carried out properly, it is very possible that they will easily commit violations and continue to take tax funds paid by the community for their own interests, so it would be better if law enforcement against officials who cannot use tax funds properly can be carried out properly so that the community can feel the benefits of the taxes they pay.

ndutndut

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Quote from: btc78 on October 14, 2024, 06:20:18 AM

We are a community so I think yes we all should contribute to the betterment of the society.

Taxation is only theft if it is used by government officials for their own personal benefit. I also think the system itself needs a refix to make it fairer and better but the point stil stands. There are so many corruption inside the system and the poor is suffering. Meanwhile the rich people can just avoid taxation with no repercussions. Now that is theft.

Yes, that's right. A country must have taxes in order to finance public interests, including economic development. It is also done so that many jobs are created, so that with many jobs, people's income can be distributed evenly. Not to mention infrastructure, health, and so on. So it is true as you said in community life it is very important for all of us to contribute to the progress of a country, especially society. In other words, the purpose of taxation is for the sustainability of a country and all development carried out for the welfare of society.

It's just that in many countries taxation has become a field for officials to commit corruption so that it is very far from the purpose of taxation itself. So it is not surprising that many people think that taxation is legalized theft. This is very reasonable to say because it is very sad that in almost all countries tax money is not used properly and as you said again many rich people avoid taxes and even officials do the same. Actually the purpose of tax is good, so taxes should be implemented according to their purpose and if they violate anyone's rights from the tax money, they should be imprisoned or given severe punishment.

EarnOnVictor

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Quote from: btc78 on October 14, 2024, 06:20:18 AM

We are a community so I think yes we all should contribute to the betterment of the society.

Taxation is only theft if it is used by government officials for their own personal benefit. I also think the system itself needs a refix to make it fairer and better but the point stil stands. There are so many corruption inside the system and the poor is suffering. Meanwhile the rich people can just avoid taxation with no repercussions. Now that is theft.

I love the first line point, but the subsequent ones are not without some errors as far as I am concerned. Fine, it's ugly behaviour for the government not to use the national wealth of the nation rightly but this can't be related to the tax itself but the bad behaviour of the government. So, it is the government you should call theives and not the context "tax" in all considerations.

Taxes and other government revenues means are the main sustenance of the nation, I wonder how the nation will look like if the government can't fulfil its local and international obligations for the shortage of money, they have to make people contribute. Some countries are so disadvantaged to the point that they do not have much lands and natural resourses, so if their government did not collect tax, what will the security, education and healthcare system be like, not to mention others.

Richbased

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Quote from: btc78 on October 14, 2024, 06:20:18 AM

We are a community so I think yes we all should contribute to the betterment of the society.

Taxation is only theft if it is used by government officials for their own personal benefit. I also think the system itself needs a refix to make it fairer and better but the point stil stands. There are so many corruption inside the system and the poor is suffering.

Taxation is important towards the development of a nation if it done without bias but it is very unfortunate that most government now are not regulating the system well and even the revenues that are being generated from taxation are not properly managed which makes most people have the feelings that taxation is a kinda fraud that the government imposes on people just to embezzle public generated funds.

Quote

Meanwhile the rich people can just avoid taxation with no repercussions. Now that is theft.

I don't completely agree that the rich people avoids taxation because they are even the ones that are more worried about paying taxes because they know the charges that will be levelled against them if they try to absconds paying their taxes. We have have heard of past cases where influential people in the society where charged for not paying their taxes just like in the case of the Argentine footballer Lionel Messi and his father being convicted in 2016 for tax related charges in Spain so everyone is included in tax paying both the rich and the common man.

Lucius

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Paying taxes is something that civilizations were built on, and I think that politicians and those who manage them know this very well and skillfully use it in order to have control over people and provide themselves with a "legitimate" source of income.

I will say that I have no problem paying taxes that will be used to improve the health system, build schools and kindergartens, homes for the elderly or something else that contributes to society - but for someone who lives in an extremely corrupt country where every now and then a new scandal breaks out about embezzlement of state money, I don't feel at all comfortable paying taxes.

The solution is of course not to stop paying taxes because that is actually impossible even if you are unemployed and trying to live under the radar - because there is something called value added tax where you pay tax every time you buy something and I have always considered that literally theft since the state first taxes my salary, then it takes 20% + extra every time I buy something.

I believe that part of the tax is somewhat justified, while one part is certainly not - and if I could somehow avoid the part that I consider unfair, I would gladly do so.

btc78

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We are a community so I think yes we all should contribute to the betterment of the society.

Taxation is only theft if it is used by government officials for their own personal benefit. I also think the system itself needs a refix to make it fairer and better but the point stil stands. There are so many corruption inside the system and the poor is suffering. Meanwhile the rich people can just avoid taxation with no repercussions. Now that is theft.

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