Is taxation theft? - page 3. | Bitcointalksearch.org

Richbased

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Quote from: btc78 on October 14, 2024, 06:20:18 AM

We are a community so I think yes we all should contribute to the betterment of the society.

Taxation is only theft if it is used by government officials for their own personal benefit. I also think the system itself needs a refix to make it fairer and better but the point stil stands. There are so many corruption inside the system and the poor is suffering.

Taxation is important towards the development of a nation if it done without bias but it is very unfortunate that most government now are not regulating the system well and even the revenues that are being generated from taxation are not properly managed which makes most people have the feelings that taxation is a kinda fraud that the government imposes on people just to embezzle public generated funds.

Quote

Meanwhile the rich people can just avoid taxation with no repercussions. Now that is theft.

I don't completely agree that the rich people avoids taxation because they are even the ones that are more worried about paying taxes because they know the charges that will be levelled against them if they try to absconds paying their taxes. We have have heard of past cases where influential people in the society where charged for not paying their taxes just like in the case of the Argentine footballer Lionel Messi and his father being convicted in 2016 for tax related charges in Spain so everyone is included in tax paying both the rich and the common man.

Lucius

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Paying taxes is something that civilizations were built on, and I think that politicians and those who manage them know this very well and skillfully use it in order to have control over people and provide themselves with a "legitimate" source of income.

I will say that I have no problem paying taxes that will be used to improve the health system, build schools and kindergartens, homes for the elderly or something else that contributes to society - but for someone who lives in an extremely corrupt country where every now and then a new scandal breaks out about embezzlement of state money, I don't feel at all comfortable paying taxes.

The solution is of course not to stop paying taxes because that is actually impossible even if you are unemployed and trying to live under the radar - because there is something called value added tax where you pay tax every time you buy something and I have always considered that literally theft since the state first taxes my salary, then it takes 20% + extra every time I buy something.

I believe that part of the tax is somewhat justified, while one part is certainly not - and if I could somehow avoid the part that I consider unfair, I would gladly do so.

btc78

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We are a community so I think yes we all should contribute to the betterment of the society.

Taxation is only theft if it is used by government officials for their own personal benefit. I also think the system itself needs a refix to make it fairer and better but the point stil stands. There are so many corruption inside the system and the poor is suffering. Meanwhile the rich people can just avoid taxation with no repercussions. Now that is theft.

franky1

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Quote from: Uhochi on July 08, 2024, 07:00:47 PM

Quote from: franky1 on June 25, 2024, 03:16:50 PM

oh good old blackhat misinforming as usual

when citizens vote they choose who manages the country whom determines how laws and policy is made
people AGREE and consent to be managed which comes with costs, people agree that some situations of life are not assured and so they agree that some representatives of the masses can organise such funds to the distribute to the services/functions that are needed which individuals cant do for themselves.

so tax is not theft when its part of the law that had been agreed to by the representatives the majority consented to

sometimes changes in tax laws or expenditure policy can negative affect the masses. but thats where people petition their government for change that benefits the masses, or vote a new governing body into power who pledge to change laws for the benefit of the masses

i personally think that alot of the tax which treasuries manage get wasted and we should petition governments to economise and organise funds better, but that does not mean taxation is illegal when there are many many many laws actually legalised it over centuries. so its not theft, just irresponsibly managed/spent

From the definition, a tax is a legal fee paid to the government by firms and individuals to fund activities for public goods, like the construction of roads. We are made to believe it's for our good, which may be true, although economic hardship is on the rise but we move regardless.

So, tax may be debated as theft when hard-working citizens have to pay ridiculous amounts for things that don't make sense, or when the tax fee is increased within a short period. However, since it's a legal fixed fee, one shouldn't bother too much about it being theft or not, but rather focus on making enough money not to notice the tax rate.

for me taxation is not illegal as its the whole purpose of government. we voted to create government to service us as a collective and individually based on those in need, which its services come at costs..
much like a gym or a management company. we become members of a gym or hire a management company to run our day to day services so we have to pay that bill/membership

however yes when the government abuse their authority when they spend funds on things that dont benefit the users and then charge those users even more due to the wastage.. then its the government thats not fit for purpose and needs to reform. where by it can reform its expenditure plans and thus not require to raise taxes, and instead decrease the tax expectations

its not so much the tax, its more so the treasury budget/plans which is the problem.. fix the spending plan, to relax the taxation (utopian dream as we know governments wont do that)

Elhindinho

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Quote from: Juse14 on July 15, 2024, 12:57:26 PM

If the taxes applied are considered irrational and excessive, in my opinion it constitutes theft, more precisely legal theft. However, even though sometimes we feel burdened by these taxes, we still cannot refuse not to pay taxes. Because taxes are coercive.

Taxes do have an important role in increasing the income of a region or country, which will later be used for the construction of public facilities. However, it is very unfortunate that if the tax results are applied to every sector, the benefits of the tax itself are still not felt by society at large. So it is quite natural that some of them feel unwilling to pay taxes. Not to mention the addition of corruption cases that often occur in the government realm, which can make someone even more lazy and reluctant to pay taxes. But once again, we cannot refuse to pay taxes, because otherwise we might be subject to fines or be entangled by the applicable regulations.

It is common that there are always discussions and tensions between the necessity of taxes and the frustration with how they are sometimes used. Taxes would be felt like legalized theft if those are prevailed with Irrational or excessive obligations. Taxes are supposed to fund public services that benefit the populace of the country. There are common concern about the benefits of taxes when those aren't felt or when corruption diverts funds. Commonly people desire to avoid burdens, and taxes can certainly feel like a burden, this is why resentment is fueled when there are potential corruptions. It's impossible to refuse taxes entirely, but people can advocate for tax reform to increase transparency in government spending.

Juse14

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If the taxes applied are considered irrational and excessive, in my opinion it constitutes theft, more precisely legal theft. However, even though sometimes we feel burdened by these taxes, we still cannot refuse not to pay taxes. Because taxes are coercive.

Taxes do have an important role in increasing the income of a region or country, which will later be used for the construction of public facilities. However, it is very unfortunate that if the tax results are applied to every sector, the benefits of the tax itself are still not felt by society at large. So it is quite natural that some of them feel unwilling to pay taxes. Not to mention the addition of corruption cases that often occur in the government realm, which can make someone even more lazy and reluctant to pay taxes. But once again, we cannot refuse to pay taxes, because otherwise we might be subject to fines or be entangled by the applicable regulations.

Yatsan

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Quote from: lixer on July 15, 2024, 12:28:05 PM

Quote from: erep on July 14, 2024, 04:03:50 PM

Quote from: Hispo on July 11, 2024, 06:55:04 PM

I think honestly taxation is not theft, I believe any functioning country needs to get their money out somewhere and part of the revenue needs to come from a relatively important percentage of the work of the people.
I don't have problems with taxes, as long as they are reasonable and are used to keep important things functioning, like hospitals and schools, not for the corrupt people of the government to steal all of it.
In my country, for example, the system of taxation is very primitive thus vital infrastruture is left to be lost to the time and the lack of funding.

If the state and the people can find an equilibrium in which nobody feels robbed, then it is fine.

I agree with your argument, even though the use of taxes is not optimal and not transparent, taxation is not theft because all the rules have been regulated in valid laws, but tax management is not in accordance with what is expected to build infrastructure and services to the community, many tax officials are proven to have committed corruption and several officials using state funds for personal needs. So the government should emphasize the death penalty to imprison tax corruptors because they have enslaved people to work and cut people's income to pay taxes.

Specially in many developing countries we are having too many things which are not working as they needed to be done with peoples are paying taxes, but they are having no incentives which they deserve, so this is surely theft in these countries. As mentioned we are having huge personal incentives for the tax department peoples which are also not justifying things like these so they needed to have stick rules for these things but no one caring about common peoples because many politicians are also involved.

If we have some transparency then surely we can achieve many good things for many countries which are not possible right now with life and development could be also have improved, but we need things which are not happening for decades.

Taxation as a process of wealth distribution is not a form of theft however, misuse of the money is, and that's not only falling under theft but corruption, meaning widely implemented. Not a new thing indeed especially with third world countries. Unfortunately, these countries are high higher taxes than with developed ones but the implementation or seggregation of money isn't usally done properly because personal interest from corrupt leaders do exist.

Transparency isn't something they would honestly do I guess because corruption is a collaborative motive from corrupt memebers of the government. Quite sad to think that this is becoming a norm with many administrations over decades.

lixer

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Quote from: erep on July 14, 2024, 04:03:50 PM

Quote from: Hispo on July 11, 2024, 06:55:04 PM

I think honestly taxation is not theft, I believe any functioning country needs to get their money out somewhere and part of the revenue needs to come from a relatively important percentage of the work of the people.
I don't have problems with taxes, as long as they are reasonable and are used to keep important things functioning, like hospitals and schools, not for the corrupt people of the government to steal all of it.
In my country, for example, the system of taxation is very primitive thus vital infrastruture is left to be lost to the time and the lack of funding.

If the state and the people can find an equilibrium in which nobody feels robbed, then it is fine.

I agree with your argument, even though the use of taxes is not optimal and not transparent, taxation is not theft because all the rules have been regulated in valid laws, but tax management is not in accordance with what is expected to build infrastructure and services to the community, many tax officials are proven to have committed corruption and several officials using state funds for personal needs. So the government should emphasize the death penalty to imprison tax corruptors because they have enslaved people to work and cut people's income to pay taxes.

Specially in many developing countries we are having too many things which are not working as they needed to be done with peoples are paying taxes, but they are having no incentives which they deserve, so this is surely theft in these countries. As mentioned we are having huge personal incentives for the tax department peoples which are also not justifying things like these so they needed to have stick rules for these things but no one caring about common peoples because many politicians are also involved.

If we have some transparency then surely we can achieve many good things for many countries which are not possible right now with life and development could be also have improved, but we need things which are not happening for decades.

STT

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Quote

Without government, any country would turn chaotic, or perhaps more chaotic

Tax and some level of governance would continue anyway, total anarchy is unlikely. What immediately could happen is a more local system level, in Switzerland I think they have a city state type system. They still pay taxes but its locally done, taxation, division and spending.

Its probably no coincidence Switzerland doesnt spend a great deal on giant armies, the terrain has some involvement I think. I read of one case where the head of a global company got paid so much, his taxes allowed the rest of his community/town to not require any contribution for a year or so. He must have been popular at that point.

RockBell

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Quote from: 348Judah on July 09, 2024, 04:09:55 AM

Tax is not a theft, the intention for the collection of tax is solely on on giving back to the society on terms of development and infrastructures, if the government are indeed being honest in the way of development to the community and are ready to work and give all it demands for them to help the people, every citizen will be happy and interested in paying thwur tax since they are conscious of what the government are capable of doing in return for them.

Taxation was initiated by government to initiate projects and give back to the society what they have taking from them and government needs money for running projects in the society and it was actually a good idea from the government to be able to help the society because with the government things can not be organized and government is their to maintain orderliness in the society. But if you look at the initiative is good. And in some society you see projects that have been done starting from borehole and other little projects. And community clinics. But gradually they don't longer follow the order and they will be waiting for support from other bodies and they still continue to collect money from people. And the government will make sure that people pay their tax and what angers me is that the government is always spending money and nothing serious is still going on because their is a lot of community's that are still lacking and they need serious support, and they are still taxing them i just hope things get better.

erep

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Quote from: Hispo on July 11, 2024, 06:55:04 PM

I think honestly taxation is not theft, I believe any functioning country needs to get their money out somewhere and part of the revenue needs to come from a relatively important percentage of the work of the people.
I don't have problems with taxes, as long as they are reasonable and are used to keep important things functioning, like hospitals and schools, not for the corrupt people of the government to steal all of it.
In my country, for example, the system of taxation is very primitive thus vital infrastruture is left to be lost to the time and the lack of funding.

If the state and the people can find an equilibrium in which nobody feels robbed, then it is fine.

I agree with your argument, even though the use of taxes is not optimal and not transparent, taxation is not theft because all the rules have been regulated in valid laws, but tax management is not in accordance with what is expected to build infrastructure and services to the community, many tax officials are proven to have committed corruption and several officials using state funds for personal needs. So the government should emphasize the death penalty to imprison tax corruptors because they have enslaved people to work and cut people's income to pay taxes.

Huppercase

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Quote from: Uhochi on July 08, 2024, 07:00:47 PM

From the definition, a tax is a legal fee paid to the government by firms and individuals to fund activities for public goods, like the construction of roads. We are made to believe it's for our good, which may be true, although economic hardship is on the rise but we move regardless.

So, tax may be debated as theft when hard-working citizens have to pay ridiculous amounts for things that don't make sense, or when the tax fee is increased within a short period. However, since it's a legal fixed fee, one shouldn't bother too much about it being theft or not, but rather focus on making enough money not to notice the tax rate.

By context of economics, there wouldn't be development if there is not a proper tax system, a reasonable amount that is affordable for everyone to pay without feeling the burden individually or collectively, this tax are been collected through various means and assembled together to the federal level and they are share accordingly back to the federal levels and local levels in a way that it's favours all the arms of the government for developments but what it's been written isn't what is been done because the system is rig.

The public offices are one of the biggest enemy of tax system, the embezzlement and stealing of public tax is shame on our economy, they cut and reduce allocations the moments it's been sent from the federal level, they take their cut and transfer half of it to the state while the state take almost everything and send the rest to the locals. This is hey development in federal is highly developed than state while state are developed than local levels.

In a situation where the federal government do distribution directly to all other arms of government, one corrupt public officer steal and it and his friends. This is why tax system always looks like scam no matter how you put it.

Alone055

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Quote from: Jody.Drummer on July 13, 2024, 01:01:33 PM

I think taxes are not money theft, because of course the state orders people to pay taxes for themselves, but sometimes there are governments who are dishonest about this, they only use people's money for themselves because of selfishness and greed. People are required to pay taxes, of course there are certain purposes, such as for their own comfort, such as paying vehicle tax. We know that the majority of people currently have private vehicles and they have to pay vehicle tax because they use road access built by the government.

Taxes are not required only for certain groups. All people have to pay taxes, whether they are rich or poor. It's just that poor people may have difficulty paying taxes because of their unstable financial situation, whereas for those who are rich paying taxes can of course be done easily and it should be easy for rich people to pay taxes because there are rich people who don't want to pay taxes but don't know. What kind of clear reason is because they themselves have thoughts like that so there must be a reason.

Anyone who is earning an income and if their income is above a certain range, they are supposed to pay taxes. I don't think that anyone would be able to do that because the amount of tax one would need to pay would depend on how much they are earning, for example, if person A earns $1,000 a month. Person B earns $10,000 a month, now if income tax is 10%, person A will need to pay $100 in taxes whereas person B will need to pay $1,000. So essentially, they pay an equal percentage of their earnings but only the amount can differ.

Taxes are used for the betterment of a country only if those who are in control of the country are loyal to their people and honest with their duties, otherwise, as you said, the officials will use the tax money for personal purposes and there won't be further developments for the country and its people, it's happening in a lot of countries, it's very unfortunate but there is nothing can be done.

philipma1957

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Quote from: cryptosize on July 14, 2024, 01:00:11 PM

Quote from: philipma1957 on July 09, 2024, 08:25:39 PM

Quote from: cryptosize on July 01, 2024, 02:28:00 PM

Quote from: philipma1957 on June 29, 2024, 06:52:39 PM

and the place won't work that way.

Care to explain why?

well your very own ⅓ of an acre of fresh water would require your care. since its yours.

this means you need a system to clean it and recirculate it so that it is potable

your four acres of land would need to grow all your food

and your 12 acres of ocean would be your source of fish to eat.

if you are sectioned off to your share many would die. or form partnerships with adjacent holders of property.

One of the reasons the place has yet to fall apart is division of labor and commingling of assets.

Am I anti communist no but it only works with other parts of the world not being communist up to this date I am correct.

but capitalism existed long before communism was created and at times it thrived.

Since communism cant claim that yet or maybe never as maybe the world collapse happens if communism becomes the only method. or the world collapses before communism takes over.

best case is the world does not collapse. if tax free world wide communism does the trick works for me.

I cant see libertarians working world wide with no other system never has at least not in the recorded history of the world

So you're basically saying that a big population requires more central planning and less freedom to prevent total chaos. Is that correct?

I believe they will try to bring communism back (with a fancier name), only this time around AI will replace corrupt governments.

Will AI be 100% corruption free? I strongly doubt it, unless it's 100% open-source (like Bitcoin, Linux etc.) to examine it.

that is pretty close to what I am trying to say.

Think if we had a sixteen parallel planet earths each with full resources and only 0.5 billion on each one the chance to test a fully ai world a fully communist world etc would be easy to do. here we just muddle along

cryptosize

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Quote from: philipma1957 on July 09, 2024, 08:25:39 PM

Quote from: cryptosize on July 01, 2024, 02:28:00 PM

Quote from: philipma1957 on June 29, 2024, 06:52:39 PM

and the place won't work that way.

Care to explain why?

well your very own ⅓ of an acre of fresh water would require your care. since its yours.

this means you need a system to clean it and recirculate it so that it is potable

your four acres of land would need to grow all your food

and your 12 acres of ocean would be your source of fish to eat.

if you are sectioned off to your share many would die. or form partnerships with adjacent holders of property.

One of the reasons the place has yet to fall apart is division of labor and commingling of assets.

Am I anti communist no but it only works with other parts of the world not being communist up to this date I am correct.

but capitalism existed long before communism was created and at times it thrived.

Since communism cant claim that yet or maybe never as maybe the world collapse happens if communism becomes the only method. or the world collapses before communism takes over.

best case is the world does not collapse. if tax free world wide communism does the trick works for me.

I cant see libertarians working world wide with no other system never has at least not in the recorded history of the world

So you're basically saying that a big population requires more central planning and less freedom to prevent total chaos. Is that correct?

I believe they will try to bring communism back (with a fancier name), only this time around AI will replace corrupt governments.

Will AI be 100% corruption free? I strongly doubt it, unless it's 100% open-source (like Bitcoin, Linux etc.) to examine it.

Jody.Drummer

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I think taxes are not money theft, because of course the state orders people to pay taxes for themselves, but sometimes there are governments who are dishonest about this, they only use people's money for themselves because of selfishness and greed. People are required to pay taxes, of course there are certain purposes, such as for their own comfort, such as paying vehicle tax. We know that the majority of people currently have private vehicles and they have to pay vehicle tax because they use road access built by the government.

Taxes are not required only for certain groups. All people have to pay taxes, whether they are rich or poor. It's just that poor people may have difficulty paying taxes because of their unstable financial situation, whereas for those who are rich paying taxes can of course be done easily and it should be easy for rich people to pay taxes because there are rich people who don't want to pay taxes but don't know. What kind of clear reason is because they themselves have thoughts like that so there must be a reason.

bbarisme

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It's not like that buddy, taxation done by the government is not theft. Tax laws are established to ensure the continuity of public services and national development. Through paying taxes, every citizen contributes to creating social justice and equality in development. It's not theft, but rather a citizen's duty to support government activities for the common welfare.

Darker45

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As much as I hate to pay taxes, I'd say taxation is justifiable. I hate my government but I am in favor of having a government. Without government, any country would turn chaotic, or perhaps more chaotic. In which case, taxation is a necessary evil because it is the very lifeblood of the government.

However, while taxation is necessary, it should be implemented fairly. Those who have much should be taxed more. Those who have less should be taxed less. The problem is that those who are making so much money are avoiding paying taxes, legally at that, while those who have less have no choice but to pay religiously. Also, taxes shouldn't be stolen by the very leaders mandated to protect the welfare of the people.

The problem is probably not taxation per se but how it is implemented and used. There are countries whose ordinary workers are paying as high as 40% income tax but they're not complaining because in return they get free and excellent healthcare, education, child care, and other services.

STT

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Taxation of people is theft because its never just once that people are taxed. Tax on the companies which supply people is far fairer overall and allows proper management and free flow in the economy.

If people are taxed on their income they also become taxed while spending it too, almost no matter whatever a person does they will have to pay additional taxes after having already paid while earning the money. This easily justifies the idea to me that tax is a form of theft from people to fund government over spending and the tyranny of the political system and its burden on a nation.

Politics should be the role of a caretaker, instead its the owner, the chief, the general and dictator of all that people do; too much is forgiven for the idea of democracy adjusting all political excess. We often just swap around another party as bad as the prior and rarely do they ever spend less, only talking more.

Hispo

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I think honestly taxation is not theft, I believe any functioning country needs to get their money out somewhere and part of the revenue needs to come from a relatively important percentage of the work of the people.
I don't have problems with taxes, as long as they are reasonable and are used to keep important things functioning, like hospitals and schools, not for the corrupt people of the government to steal all of it.
In my country, for example, the system of taxation is very primitive thus vital infrastruture is left to be lost to the time and the lack of funding.

If the state and the people can find an equilibrium in which nobody feels robbed, then it is fine.

Topic: Is taxation theft? - page 3. (Read 1765 times)