jgarzik goes berzerk in #bitcoin-dev, wtf? - page 14.

Technomage

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Quote from: Herodes on November 30, 2012, 11:33:02 AM

For all we know, Jgarzik just had a shitty day, and didn't feel like being diplomatic. Interpreting too much from this is not necessary.

I hope that is the case. The problem is that I don't see Iran in the same way as many of US citizens see it. For me Iran is actually in an equal position to US in terms of how I view it as a country. That makes my reaction very different. People in this thread accept this behaviour because they silently support the oppression of Iran. I don't support it for one nanosecond.

Thankfully Bitcoin is not just about the U, S and A. There are plenty of others and hopefully the group of others will get bigger. Especially in places that really need it. Yes, those places we don't want to discuss, ever.

robocoin

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Quote from: cbeast on November 30, 2012, 10:46:19 AM

This discussion isn't about politics, but about fear. I am seeing a disturbing trend in Bitcoin development towards centralization with e-wallets (bitcoincard), tainting, coloring, proof-of-stake, etc. It is what it is. The threat from the state is real.

This thread clearly show who's has no idea about how far a state threat can go. They can't destroy Bitcoin but they can destroy my savings and my joy. So thank you jgarzikfor making a point.

And:

Quote from: theymos on November 30, 2012, 10:30:22 AM

I would not have banned Jeremias. (And he's welcome on this forum.) We aren't likely to gain much ground by strictly following stupid laws and trying to change the political/legal environment. IMO, widespread agorism is the best way to reduce the government's control over us. Iran might be a good place to try this sort of thing on a large scale.

But in case I'm wrong, it's probably not so bad to have parts of the Bitcoin community that are more concerned about laws. Just so long as our most important principles don't get lost while trying to follow laws.

Why all this drama? (Ja ok I know why) Just make a special "Iran and Bitcoin Discussion" on this forum and watch what's happening.

Quote from: Herodes on November 30, 2012, 11:19:58 AM

people get kicked off and banned from irc channels all the time often for no serious reason at all. Get over it.

The world is a place with shades of grey, don't be so black and white.

This.

Remember remember the 5th of November

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Reverse engineer from time to time

I don't understand. What is wrong with Iran?

Herodes

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Quote from: Technomage on November 30, 2012, 11:27:40 AM

I think I'm taking it too seriously but my history as an IRC veteran sort of heats it up. I tend to get emotional if there is unjust moderation and now that two of the things that I love are involved in the same dispute (IRC & Bitcoin), it heats things up for me. I do get the opposite point of view very well but I think there is a difference between being caucious and smart, and being afraid and in panic. I really don't see a reason to panic.

It's quite clear that you're clouded by emotions. I think Gavin is a good example about how to handle situations like that very well. When his blood starts to boil. He backs off and takes a couple of days offline.

For all we know, Jgarzik just had a shitty day, and didn't feel like being diplomatic. Interpreting too much from this is not necessary.

mccorvic

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Quote from: EhVedadoOAnonimato on November 30, 2012, 11:24:53 AM

They wouldn't need to "attack" them. I'm more and more convinced that just a polite request would be enough for Garzik to implement the perfect surveillance tool for the state to link addresses to people and monitor every flow of coins. Hell, he's trying to implement it right now, in anticipation.

Sad.

Isn't this why bitcoin is open source? So, you could check on this sorta thing?

I don't think this is as unreasonable as you guys are making it sound. If you believe in the legalization of certain drugs you might partake/sell those drugs, but I doubt any of you would go around and openly brag and announce that you are doing so in a way that can be tied directly back to you by law enforcement. No one here is complaining that people on Silk Road aren't using their real names and posting their addresses openly.

Caution and realism =! cowardice.

Guys, there's a real chance here for real discussion/debate but too many of you are just going full-on hyperbolic drama queen.

memvola

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Quote from: server on November 30, 2012, 11:22:56 AM

Kick/ban = panic.

Normal reaction for brainwashed western citizens when they hear something about Iran.

They tend to forget that 80 million Iranians hate their crazy government too...

Even I hate it more than I did just this morning.

By the way, this NSA/SHA-2 burden doesn't exist for Litecoin. I've always seen LTC as redundant, but this is something to think about. What other algorithms do we use that is regulated by states?

Technomage

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I think I'm taking it too seriously but my history as an IRC veteran sort of heats it up. I tend to get emotional if there is unjust moderation and now that two of the things that I love are involved in the same dispute (IRC & Bitcoin), it heats things up for me. I do get the opposite point of view very well but I think there is a difference between being caucious and smart, and being afraid and in panic. I really don't see a reason to panic.

casascius

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Quote from: Herodes on November 30, 2012, 11:23:55 AM

jgarzik is intelligent, he looks long term, and wants bitcoin to succeed. Some people don't see the big picture.

+1

casascius

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Quote from: Technomage on November 30, 2012, 11:22:17 AM

There is supposed to be such a thing as freedom of speech and there should be a limit on what kind of crap we take from the governments.

This is what Julian Assange thinks too. The price he is paying in actual freedom is the disparity between what should be, and what actually is.

EhVedadoOAnonimato

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Quote from: Technomage on November 30, 2012, 11:16:17 AM

What options do we have when governments attack the dev team? The fact that someone in the team is afraid is a genuine problem.

They wouldn't need to "attack" them. I'm more and more convinced that just a polite request would be enough for Garzik to implement the perfect surveillance tool for the state to link addresses to people and monitor every flow of coins. Hell, he's trying to implement it right now, in anticipation.

Sad.

Polvos

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It's sad that we are arguing about this. I'm wondering the censorship when someone talks about translating a piece of software in farsi. Casascius says "we must not put more heat in the USA devs/mods/users/whatever".

And I ask myself: how many mods/devs here, in the main bitcoin forum, are from the fearing USA? What is considered "heat" for them? Are we starting the worst kind of censorship (the selfcenshorship)?

Herodes

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jgarzik is intelligent, he looks long term, and wants bitcoin to succeed. Some people don't see the big picture.

server

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1 BTC =1 BTC

Kick/ban = panic.

Normal reaction for brainwashed western citizens when they hear something about Iran.

They tend to forget that 80 million Iranians hate their crazy government too...

Technomage

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Quote from: casascius on November 30, 2012, 11:15:53 AM

He did at 13:17:02 in the chat log.

I'm aware of this, my question was why was that not enough?

Quote

I think he did say exactly that, if you read between the lines.

I'm aware of this, my question was why was that not enough?

Quote

I don't think he was trying to "comply" with a law, but rather, to eliminate the inherent risk he perceived (and clearly pointed out before banning) in allowing the topic to be discussed in a publicly logged bitcoin developers channel. "Some people are too cautious" discounts the fact that his risk is FAR greater than yours - this is like me in the US saying Scandinavians are too cautious about food allergies.

I actually don't like the fact that I'm not in that position. It makes me look weak in this discussion. Because I can guarantee that my reaction would not have been similar regardless of my position. I think it's over-caucious and if it's possible to get in trouble even if you disagree and stay out of the discussion, by simply allowing discussion to continue on the topic, I say fuck everything. Seriously. There is supposed to be such a thing as freedom of speech and there should be a limit on what kind of crap we take from the governments.

This is unbelievable.

casascius

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Quote from: Steve on November 30, 2012, 11:11:56 AM

Censoring people leads to 5 page long threads discussing the very topic you wanted people to be silent about.

If I had to guess, I don't think anyone wants the discussion to not happen, I just don't think it was wanted in #bitcoin-dev. jgarzik is conspicuously absent from this thread and I will bet it's not because he doesn't know about it.

He probably doesn't want the topic discussed in his living room either, especially with a tape recorder or camera rolling.

Herodes

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people get kicked off and banned from irc channels all the time often for no serious reason at all. Get over it.

The world is a place with shades of grey, don't be so black and white.

mccorvic

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Quote from: Steve on November 30, 2012, 11:11:56 AM

Censoring people leads to 5 page long threads discussing the very topic you wanted people to be silent about.

But not long discussions on #bitcoin-dev which I think is the point? This Iran thing is hardly the most controversial topic to ever come up surrounding bitcoins, so I'm not so sure why people are trying to draw big-ol' lines in the sand over this. The people of Iran deserve bitcoin and by flying under the radar, as BTC has mostly done thus far, they will find it and use it.

hazek

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Quote from: Steve on November 30, 2012, 11:11:56 AM

Censoring people leads to 5 page long threads discussing the very topic you wanted people to be silent about.

It's called the Streisand effect.

Quote from: ianbakewell on November 30, 2012, 11:11:37 AM

Quote from: Technomage on November 30, 2012, 11:08:10 AM

He can simply disagree and say that I, as a Bitcoin core dev, do not support this.

Hard to disagree with this.

I agree with it too. There was no need to ban anyone, his personal and public disapproval should have been enough.

EhVedadoOAnonimato

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Quote from: Steve on November 30, 2012, 11:11:56 AM

Censoring people leads to 5 page long threads discussing the very topic you wanted people to be silent about.

hehehe, kudos to the Internetz...

Technomage

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I'm beginning to think that having central representation for Bitcoin that is supposed to be "responsible" for it, such as the "Dev Team", or the "Bitcoin Foundation", might pose a problem for the entire system. It might become the number one weakest link in the entire ecosystem. Even exchanges can be decentralized thanks to LocalBitcoins and future p2p online exchanges. What options do we have when governments attack the dev team? The fact that someone in the team is afraid is a genuine problem.

Topic: jgarzik goes berzerk in #bitcoin-dev, wtf? - page 14. (Read 29037 times)