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Topic: jgarzik goes berzerk in #bitcoin-dev, wtf? - page 15. (Read 29034 times)

vip
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1140
The Casascius 1oz 10BTC Silver Round (w/ Gold B)
November 30, 2012, 11:15:53 AM
#90
Casascius, I don't think your arguments are sound this time. Why is it not enough for him to simply say in IRC that he does not think it's a good idea to promote Bitcoin in Iran because of the trade sanctions etc etc?

He did at 13:17:02 in the chat log.

That is his position, and no one can say that he is doing otherwise. In fact I don't even think this is a problem of public record and personal risk, he seems afraid for Bitcoin. That is the only explanation that makes sense. He has no responsibility as a Bitcoin core developer to silence people who talk about topics that are not "correct". He can simply disagree and say that I, as a Bitcoin core dev, do not support this.

I think he did say exactly that, if you read between the lines.

If that was the case there would be no problem either way. It would be the risk of jeremias to talk about promoting Bitcoin in Iran. He would have the responsibility. Why does it require a kick ban from the channel to be "compliant" with the US law? I think this is absolutely ridiculous. Some people are too caucious. There is nothing directly illegal in what was discussed either.

I don't think he was trying to "comply" with a law, but rather, to eliminate the inherent risk he perceived (and clearly pointed out before banning) in allowing the topic to be discussed in a publicly logged bitcoin developers channel.  "Some people are too cautious" discounts the fact that his risk is FAR greater than yours - this is like me in the US saying Scandinavians are too cautious about food allergies.

hero member
Activity: 868
Merit: 1008
November 30, 2012, 11:11:56 AM
#89
Censoring people leads to 5 page long threads discussing the very topic you wanted people to be silent about.
legendary
Activity: 1031
Merit: 1000
November 30, 2012, 11:10:55 AM
#88
This issue was already hashed during the Wikileaks issue and Satoshi recommended keeping Bitcoin away from it so Bitcoin could grow and mature into a more powerful tool.

It is extraordinarily unwise to make bitcoin such a highly visible target, at such an early stage in this project.  There could be a lot of "collateral murder" in the bitcoin community while you make your principled stand.
Having read this thread, I've done a U-turn on my earlier view and agree. Lets protect and care for bitcoin until she leaves her nursery onto the economic killing fields.

Since Len Sassaman, who may well have been Satoshi, was likely covertly murdered therefore it would be in people's best interest to be a little more discrete and pragmatic.

I would never have reacted this way without the ban, that was out of line. I already knew Jeff thinks this way so I'm not massively surprised about how he reacted but I thought it was out of line.

Talking about it, using it, does NOT imply illegal activities. Silk Road itself is NOT illegal.

Why is it so difficult for people to follow the first rule of Fight Club?
legendary
Activity: 2184
Merit: 1056
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November 30, 2012, 11:10:40 AM
#87
I sort of agree with you, but he didn't have to ban Jeremias in order to not discuss the topic himself.

+1000

With what he did, he basically enforced a policy on behalf of everyone who uses Bitcoin. I don't buy for one second that this has anything to do with personal risk because he will of course say it's a bad idea to support Iran and there will be no quote to use against him. The ban was unnecessary. Banning will only make it worse, as you all have now seen.
hero member
Activity: 496
Merit: 500
November 30, 2012, 11:09:09 AM
#86
You are not in the same position as him.  His name is on the front page of Bitcoin.org as a developer and yours is not.  His personal freedom is put at risk by being willing to discuss these topics on the record, yours is not.

I sort of agree with you, but he didn't have to ban Jeremias in order to not discuss the topic himself.
legendary
Activity: 2184
Merit: 1056
Affordable Physical Bitcoins - Denarium.com
November 30, 2012, 11:08:10 AM
#85
Casascius, I don't think your arguments are sound this time. Why is it not enough for him to simply say in IRC that he does not think it's a good idea to promote Bitcoin in Iran because of the trade sanctions etc etc?

That is his position, and no one can say that he is doing otherwise. In fact I don't even think this is a problem of public record and personal risk, he seems afraid for Bitcoin. That is the only explanation that makes sense. He has no responsibility as a Bitcoin core developer to silence people who talk about topics that are not "correct". He can simply disagree and say that I, as a Bitcoin core dev, do not support this.

If that was the case there would be no problem either way. It would be the risk of jeremias to talk about promoting Bitcoin in Iran. He would have the responsibility. Why does it require a kick ban from the channel to be "compliant" with the US law? I think this is absolutely ridiculous. Some people are too caucious. There is nothing directly illegal in what was discussed either.
hero member
Activity: 630
Merit: 500
November 30, 2012, 11:07:15 AM
#84
This discussion isn't about politics, but about fear. I am seeing a disturbing trend in Bitcoin development towards centralization with e-wallets (bitcoincard), tainting, coloring, proof-of-stake, etc. It is what it is. The threat from the state is real.

+1000

I've seen some discussions about colored coins, curiously enough promoted by the state sucker this topic is about.

AFAICT, all use cases for coin coloring that I saw being promoted could very well be implemented by Open Transactions (stocks, financial instruments etc), which has a level of anonymity even higher than Bitcoin in some cases. Why the urge to introduce a perfect tool for surveillance in Bitcoin if what they claim to want to solve can be better solved by another protocol, built precisely for it?
vip
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1140
The Casascius 1oz 10BTC Silver Round (w/ Gold B)
November 30, 2012, 11:01:51 AM
#83
I don't think kicking someone off an internet chat channel is actively reducing the possibility of Iran use of Bitcoin.

Based on his comments before the ban he is very much against talking about it at all. There are many other public venues of talking about it and I think this thread and the coverage it currently has in Reddit is actually much more public than a darn IRC channel. What he did gave it 100 times more publicity than it would've got if there was just a discussion in an IRC channel.

Not surprising: I would expect he is against talking about it.  The media would salivate over even a 10-second sound bite of a "core Bitcoin developer in the US" talking about subverting the policies of the US government.  He seems like a smart guy.  I don't blame him.

I also wanted to comment on the Silk Road comment that you removed and I'll just say that I think the policies regarding talk about Silk Road are ridiculous as well. Silk Road is an anonymous marketplace by definition. Talking about it, using it, does NOT imply illegal activities. Silk Road itself is NOT illegal. I have actually consulted this with a lawyer because we've run into users in our service that talk to us about Silk Road. As long as the user doesn't mention drugs or other illegal substances, we have no problem providing service to people who mention Silk Road.

You are not in the same position as him.  His name is on the front page of Bitcoin.org as a developer and yours is not.  His personal freedom is put at risk by being willing to discuss these topics on the record, yours is not.
hero member
Activity: 630
Merit: 500
November 30, 2012, 11:00:53 AM
#82
If a particular person in Iran wants freedom then they should pay the cost for it. Trying to shift the cost onto jgarzik or any other Bitcoin devs results in moral hazard because individuals want to freeride off others contributions. The Bitcoin devs are already paying tremendous costs in terms of specialization of labor in the fight for freedom.

Those who think the Bitcoin dev team should pay increased costs for the fight for freedom to extend the benefits to individual persons in Iran who may or may not want that freedom is not only destructive to the Bitcoin product but economically inefficient.

Nobody is shifting any costs onto anyone. The only thing being asked is for the cowards not to become a cost to those who fight for freedom.
legendary
Activity: 2184
Merit: 1056
Affordable Physical Bitcoins - Denarium.com
November 30, 2012, 10:57:28 AM
#81
So, we should discourage Iranians using bitcoin because the US government says so? Are you crazy?

I can't believe it either. My faith on Bitcoin being a true currency of the resistance has been reduced today, I must admit that.
legendary
Activity: 3431
Merit: 1233
November 30, 2012, 10:56:27 AM
#80
I can't believe my eyes when reading all this bs reasoning.  Angry

So, we should discourage Iranians using bitcoin because the US government says so? Are you crazy?
legendary
Activity: 2184
Merit: 1056
Affordable Physical Bitcoins - Denarium.com
November 30, 2012, 10:55:27 AM
#79
I don't think kicking someone off an internet chat channel is actively reducing the possibility of Iran use of Bitcoin.

Based on his comments before the ban he is very much against talking about it at all. There are many other public venues of talking about it and I think this thread and the coverage it currently has in Reddit is actually much more public than a darn IRC channel. What he did gave it 100 times more publicity than it would've got if there was just a discussion in an IRC channel.

I also wanted to comment on the Silk Road comment that you removed and I'll just say that I think the policies regarding talk about Silk Road are ridiculous as well. Silk Road is an anonymous marketplace by definition. Talking about it, using it, does NOT imply illegal activities. Silk Road itself is NOT illegal. I have actually consulted this with a lawyer because we've run into users in our service that talk to us about Silk Road. As long as the user doesn't mention drugs or other illegal substances, we have no problem providing service to people who mention Silk Road.
vip
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1140
The Casascius 1oz 10BTC Silver Round (w/ Gold B)
November 30, 2012, 10:49:03 AM
#78
Casascius and everyone else, I think there is some confusion here. No one is proposing we launch a massive marketing campaign to get Bitcoin to Iran. Even I think that is not a smart move. However, I strongly think we shouldn't be actively reducing the possibility of regular people in Iran to use Bitcoin.

I don't think kicking someone off an internet chat channel is actively reducing the possibility of Iran use of Bitcoin.

In fact I think that translating Bitcoin-Qt to Farsi, LocalBitcoins to Farsi etc, is a noble goal. Just like translating them to all other languages is. I think it's smart to provide the tools for people to use Bitcoin if they wish but actively and publicly encouraging people in Iran to use it is not necessarily a good idea and I understand the risk it might pose.

I didn't see any disagreement with translating it to Farsi, I just saw a well-founded unwillingness to allow it to be discussed in a publicly logged bitcoin developers' chat channel.


legendary
Activity: 2184
Merit: 1056
Affordable Physical Bitcoins - Denarium.com
November 30, 2012, 10:48:50 AM
#77
I would not have banned Jeremias. (And he's welcome on this forum.) We aren't likely to gain much ground by strictly following stupid laws and trying to change the political/legal environment. IMO, widespread agorism is the best way to reduce the government's control over us. Iran might be a good place to try this sort of thing on a large scale.

But in case I'm wrong, it's probably not so bad to have parts of the Bitcoin community that are more concerned about laws. Just so long as our most important principles don't get lost while trying to follow laws.

I agree with this. Bitcoin community is a diverse bunch and that is good. I would never have reacted this way without the ban, that was out of line. I already knew Jeff thinks this way so I'm not massively surprised about how he reacted but I thought it was out of line. I'm an IRC veteran (almost 15 years now) so I have experience in moderating it. The only reasoning I could see for the ban was fear and that is concerning.
donator
Activity: 1736
Merit: 1014
Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.
November 30, 2012, 10:46:19 AM
#76
This discussion isn't about politics, but about fear. I am seeing a disturbing trend in Bitcoin development towards centralization with e-wallets (bitcoincard), tainting, coloring, proof-of-stake, etc. It is what it is. The threat from the state is real.
legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1008
If you want to walk on water, get out of the boat
November 30, 2012, 10:42:33 AM
#75
Point is, do you guys realize that the bitcoin client can be easily downloaded from the website? And it does not state "if you are from iran do not download" lol

banning someone because he wrote an article?  Undecided That sucks, a lot.
legendary
Activity: 2184
Merit: 1056
Affordable Physical Bitcoins - Denarium.com
November 30, 2012, 10:40:49 AM
#74
Casascius and everyone else, I think there is some confusion here. No one is proposing we launch a massive marketing campaign to get Bitcoin to Iran. Even I think that is not a smart move. However, I strongly think we shouldn't be actively reducing the possibility of regular people in Iran to use Bitcoin.

In fact I think that translating Bitcoin-Qt to Farsi, LocalBitcoins to Farsi etc, is a noble goal. Just like translating them to all other languages is. I think it's smart to provide the tools for people to use Bitcoin if they wish but actively and publicly encouraging people in Iran to use it is not necessarily a good idea and I understand the risk it might pose.

Making it harder for them to use Bitcoin in purpose is in my mind ethically worse than anything. From a practical sense active promotion would be stupid as well though, so why won't we find a middleground. The reaction Jeff had in IRC was not a middleground, the ban was out of line. Jeremias didn't encourage illegal activities, all he wants is to make Bitcoin available everywhere.
hero member
Activity: 952
Merit: 1009
November 30, 2012, 10:36:46 AM
#73
Didn't Iran invent language? They should not have exported that.

They certainly should have patented it at WPO.  Grin
vip
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1140
The Casascius 1oz 10BTC Silver Round (w/ Gold B)
November 30, 2012, 10:36:28 AM
#72
I understand that it's much easier for someone from Finland to promote Bitcoin to Iran than it is for someone who is from the US. It's a delicate situation. Personally I'm taking a strong stance on this one and I'm forced to call cowardice on certain people, no choice.

I can't speak for jgarzik, but maybe if you were discussing Iran with him in somewhere more private than a chat channel whose logs are published to the world.  Who knows, maybe he would say "jesus christ, this is big news for bitcoin, but can we please not fucking discuss it where others are watching?"

I see nothing wrong with enjoying alcohol, but if I had to live for a year in Saudi Arabia and one day had a local news crew pointing a camera at me and someone asked me to talk about my previous employment at a US brewery (despite it being totally legal), I'd be like hell no!  That's just common sense, not cowardice.
legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1013
November 30, 2012, 10:34:34 AM
#71
How many people are aware that you can do anonymous IRC over Freenet?

There's already an existing #bitcoin channel in FLIP that could stand to have some more traffic.
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