Topic: jgarzik goes berzerk in #bitcoin-dev, wtf? - page 13. (Read 28980 times)
An Iranian joining the dev team, that would heat things up!
I don't support the oppression of Iran either. In fact, neither do most US citizens.
I also don't support the war on drugs, but that doesn't mean I'm about to use or sell drugs where I can be readily identified.
I also don't support the war on drugs, but that doesn't mean I'm about to use or sell drugs where I can be readily identified.
I think what makes this topic so closer to the fine line is the singling out of a group of people who had no choice on the matter. This is a far more sensitive subject than drugs.
Also, this might spark a greater controversy because Bitcoin is apparently being constrained to being a western project. In this case I'm more sympathetic to your views. This would only be resolved as Bitcoin gains more development effort from the rest of the world. Maybe we've gotten used to expecting freedom generating technologies from the west to the point of being unfair.
This is even more scary than what i tought 
I understood this as a ban to forcibly end the discussion since it was continuing despite his request for it to stop, not a permanent ban that means "never come back". Have I misunderstood?
Of course it's not a permanent ban. It was a quick escape from a topic he didn't want to discuss. He was very agitated, at first he banned Finland entirely from the channel as a quick response.
What does other dev team members think about the fact that the topic of Iran is apparently entirely forbidden in the dev team IRC channel?
Let's make a complete list of everything that is forbidden. So everyone knows in advance to be quiet!
But why stopping the discussion?
Yes, definitely emotionally compromised. Compartmentalization is a wonderful tool. Tool X can be a tool to liberate people of jurisdiction Y while the dev team of Tool X is publicly on record as not helping people of jurisdiction Y.
I'm guilty of excess emotion over this, but I must remind you that it was jgarzik who was originally "emotionally compromised", it was his fear and panic, or "agitation", that lead to an unnecessary ban. So I'm not the only one guilty of that.
I still see the ban as unneeded.
I understood this as a ban to forcibly end the discussion since it was continuing despite his request for it to stop, not a permanent ban that means "never come back". Have I misunderstood?
I think I'm taking it too seriously but my history as an IRC veteran sort of heats it up. I tend to get emotional if there is unjust moderation and now that two of the things that I love are involved in the same dispute (IRC & Bitcoin), it heats things up for me. I do get the opposite point of view very well but I think there is a difference between being caucious and smart, and being afraid and in panic. I really don't see a reason to panic.
It's quite clear that you're clouded by emotions.
Yes, definitely emotionally compromised. Compartmentalization is a wonderful tool. Tool X can be a tool to liberate people of jurisdiction Y while the dev team of Tool X is publicly on record as not helping people of jurisdiction Y.
Would you like to hear Jeff's take on it when his words are on the record, or what Jeff's take on it would be if the two of you were sitting at a bar in Finland? I don't know Jeff personally, but my reading of the situation suggests they'd be drastically different.
I think the explanations would be very different. I know representing Bitcoin is sometimes walking a thin line but there are individual differences on this. Some people want to put themselves on the line a little more (I'm one of those people), and some want to be very caucious and take no risks. I understand that as well, but I still see the ban as unneeded. He can remove himself from the equation even without a ban. If he did it to protect Bitcoin and has a good explanation, I might partially buy it.
Censoring people leads to 5 page long threads discussing the very topic you wanted people to be silent about.
It's called the Streisand effect.
He can simply disagree and say that I, as a Bitcoin core dev, do not support this.
Hard to disagree with this.
I agree with it too. There was no need to ban anyone, his personal and public disapproval should have been enough.
but I would certainly like to hear Jeff's take on it at some point.
Would you like to hear Jeff's take on it when his words are on the record, or what Jeff's take on it would be if the two of you were sitting at a bar? I don't know Jeff personally, but my reading of the situation suggests they'd be drastically different.
Well, that's how I saw it as well, so we're in agreement. It still doesn't make it all good. This issue is perhaps smaller than all the drama here suggests but I would certainly like to hear Jeff's take on it at some point. I mean, jeremias himself is surprisingly calm about this. He is a calm guy. I would be furious in his position.
Maybe it is better to be safe and sorry but I still don't like this. At all.
Maybe it is better to be safe and sorry but I still don't like this. At all.
I think translating into Farsi is fine and a wonderful idea and, of course, perfectly legal.
I imagine that jgarzik was just agitated enough by the conversation that came at the start that he saw it as being tied directly to "translate to farsi in order to send BTC directly to Iran". I don't blame him for seeing that way. I imagine that if nothing had been mentioned about Iran and the idea of translating casually came up there wouldn't have been any trouble.
I imagine that jgarzik was just agitated enough by the conversation that came at the start that he saw it as being tied directly to "translate to farsi in order to send BTC directly to Iran". I don't blame him for seeing that way. I imagine that if nothing had been mentioned about Iran and the idea of translating casually came up there wouldn't have been any trouble.
That's how I saw it too.
That is not what I'm seeing. If we go back to the original IRC chat, it was eventually about simply translating Bitcoin software and services to Farsi. That was the final discussion, until it was cut off by a ban. I think that simply translating our software is definitely opposing the oppression but in a fairly silent way. No one has been suggesting a promo campaign to get Bitcoin to Iran, as I've said before.
I would like to get this discussion to where it stopped thanks to Jeff, which is translating Bitcoin services to Farsi. What do you guys think about that? Bitcoin-Qt specifically. LocalBitcoins is already being translated, this episode put some nice motivation to do that.
I would like to get this discussion to where it stopped thanks to Jeff, which is translating Bitcoin services to Farsi. What do you guys think about that? Bitcoin-Qt specifically. LocalBitcoins is already being translated, this episode put some nice motivation to do that.
I think translating into Farsi is fine and a wonderful idea and, of course, perfectly legal.
I imagine that jgarzik was just agitated enough by the conversation that came at the start that he saw it as being tied directly to "translate to farsi in order to send BTC directly to Iran". I don't blame him for seeing that way. I imagine that if nothing had been mentioned about Iran and the idea of translating casually came up there wouldn't have been any trouble.
I would like to get this discussion to where it stopped thanks to Jeff, which is translating Bitcoin services to Farsi. What do you guys think about that? Bitcoin-Qt specifically. LocalBitcoins is already being translated, this episode put some nice motivation to do that.
I will bet nobody in the channel speaks Farsi, so what is there to productively discuss, and why would it involve the core dev team?
It would be a different story if what was brought up was: "I just submitted pull #1234 which adds some new language support."
Ah, come on dawg. You know that most, if not all, people here don't silently support the oppression. We are having a disagreement on how we could best oppose it without being arrested/BTC compromised. Keep the hyperbole out and you'll get a much better discussion here.
That is not what I'm seeing. If we go back to the original IRC chat, it was eventually about simply translating Bitcoin software and services to Farsi. That was the final discussion, until it was cut off by a ban. I think that simply translating our software is definitely opposing the oppression but in a fairly silent way. No one has been suggesting a promo campaign to get Bitcoin to Iran, as I've said before.
I would like to get this discussion to where it stopped thanks to Jeff, which is translating Bitcoin services to Farsi. What do you guys think about that? Bitcoin-Qt specifically. LocalBitcoins is already being translated, this episode put some nice motivation to do that.
I don't support the oppression of Iran either. In fact, neither do most US citizens.
I also don't support the war on drugs, but that doesn't mean I'm about to use or sell drugs where I can be readily identified. Nor am I about to create a commemorative "Silk Road" Casascius Coin, or a "Silk Road Gift Certificate" paper wallet generator, or print "buy drugs with this xxxblahxxblahblah.onion" in my banknote backside artwork, even though I could, and actually would totally love to.
I also don't support the war on drugs, but that doesn't mean I'm about to use or sell drugs where I can be readily identified. Nor am I about to create a commemorative "Silk Road" Casascius Coin, or a "Silk Road Gift Certificate" paper wallet generator, or print "buy drugs with this xxxblahxxblahblah.onion" in my banknote backside artwork, even though I could, and actually would totally love to.
I'm glad to hear that, but I would again like to mention the big difference between Silk Road and "selling drugs", or "using drugs". I don't personally support using or selling drugs, I really don't, but I do support Silk Road 100%. Silk Road is an anonymous marketplace that allows free individuals to trade. That is good. I'm also not against voluntary usage of drugs by adults.
It's important that the Bitcoin community starts to differentiate Silk Road and drugs. It's true that a significant amount of trade in Silk Road involves drugs, but not everything, and it doesn't need to be that way. We should not be afraid to use services such as Silk Road, for other things. Why not? It's not illegal to use Silk Road. Using it for drug trade is a totally different thing and I understand being super caucious when something like that is mentioned. But don't be afraid if Silk Road in general is mentioned.
I hope that is the case. The problem is that I don't see Iran in the same way as many of US citizens see it. For me Iran is actually in an equal position to US in terms of how I view it as a country. That makes my reaction very different. People in this thread accept this behaviour because they silently support the oppression of Iran. I don't support it for one nanosecond.
Ah, come on dawg. You know that most, if not all, people here don't silently support the oppression. We are having a disagreement on how we could best oppose it without being arrested/BTC compromised. Keep the hyperbole out and you'll get a much better discussion here.
the only acceptable explanation is that jgarzik knows something about the technical limitations (weaknesses, vulnerabilities) of the currency as it stands. anything else is extremely suspicious.
For all we know, Jgarzik just had a shitty day, and didn't feel like being diplomatic. Interpreting too much from this is not necessary.
I hope that is the case. The problem is that I don't see Iran in the same way as many of US citizens see it. For me Iran is actually in an equal position to US in terms of how I view it as a country. That makes my reaction very different. People in this thread accept this behaviour because they silently support the oppression of Iran. I don't support it for one nanosecond.
I don't support the oppression of Iran either. In fact, neither do most US citizens.
I also don't support the war on drugs, but that doesn't mean I'm about to use or sell drugs where I can be readily identified. Nor am I about to create a commemorative "Silk Road" Casascius Coin, or a "Silk Road Gift Certificate" paper wallet generator, or print "buy drugs with this xxxblahxxblahblah.onion" in my banknote backside artwork, even though I could, and actually would totally love to. I'll just let somebody else do that.
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