jgarzik goes berzerk in #bitcoin-dev, wtf? - page 16.

sunnankar

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Quote from: BkkCoins on November 30, 2012, 10:12:58 AM

If they want to use it in Iran they'll have to figure out their own way to get it. Or use an eWallet service. Whatever.

Precisely. The issue is who bears the cost in the fight for freedom?

If a particular person in Iran wants freedom then they should pay the cost for it. Trying to shift the cost onto jgarzik or any other Bitcoin devs results in moral hazard because individuals want to freeride off others contributions. The Bitcoin devs are already paying tremendous costs in terms of specialization of labor in the fight for freedom.

Those who think the Bitcoin dev team should pay increased costs for the fight for freedom to extend the benefits to individual persons in Iran who may or may not want that freedom is not only destructive to the Bitcoin product but economically inefficient.

The Bitcoin Project does not need to go looking for dragons to slay; instead, Bitcoin should be a passive weapon that dragon-slayers can pick up when they go looking for dragons.

Gabi

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Quote from: cbeast on November 30, 2012, 10:28:55 AM

Didn't Iran invent language? They should not have exported that.

I am sure it's illegal to use language because iran invented it. We are all criminals.

theymos

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I would not have banned Jeremias. (And he's welcome on this forum.) We aren't likely to gain much ground by strictly following stupid laws and trying to change the political/legal environment. IMO, widespread agorism is the best way to reduce the government's control over us. Iran might be a good place to try this sort of thing on a large scale.

But in case I'm wrong, it's probably not so bad to have parts of the Bitcoin community that are more concerned about laws. Just so long as our most important principles don't get lost while trying to follow laws.

Serith

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Quote from: casascius on November 30, 2012, 09:24:47 AM

I am going to have to agree with jgarzik here.

We as a community are asking for swift trouble from US govt bullies if we are actively marketing Bitcoin to Iran. It has nothing to do with whether it's legal, moral, ethical or not. We are lucky they have left this project alone thus far. Doing anything that looks like marketing to Iran will change that quickly.

Also, bitcoin-dev is a publicly logged channel. If I am a Bitcoin developer on a publicly logged chat channel where my actions could be scrutinized by the media and the world and someone wants to discuss Iran, kicking and banning in a publicly visible manner would be prudent. That is truly not a good place to talk about that subject.

I sure as hell would not want to discuss bringing Bitcoin to Iran in any place where my discussion was being logged and published.

I understand your reasoning, but there is a danger of taking it too far, incrementally it can bring community to a point where it will agree with some drastic change of Bitcoin protocol. For example, it is possible to hard fork Bitcoin to accept source address as valid only if it was produced from a seed that belongs to a government, so government will be in control of issuing new address and will map real identity to every bitcoin transaction. Which is why I was infuriated with Peter Vessenes, Executive Director of Bitcoin Foundation, who made a careless comment about Bitcoin privacy which made me believe that he will be ok with a change like that.

cbeast

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Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.

Didn't Iran invent language? They should not have exported that.

myself

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chaos is fun...…damental :)

Quote from: casascius on November 30, 2012, 10:24:28 AM

Quote from: becoin on November 30, 2012, 09:58:51 AM

Quote from: casascius on November 30, 2012, 09:24:47 AM

I am going to have to agree with jgarzik here.

We as a community are asking for swift trouble from US govt bullies if we are actively marketing Bitcoin to Iran. It has nothing to do with whether it's legal, moral, ethical or not. We are lucky they have left this project alone thus far. Doing anything that looks like marketing to Iran will change that quickly.

Also, bitcoin-dev is a publicly logged channel. If I am a Bitcoin developer on a publicly logged chat channel where my actions could be scrutinized by the media and the world and someone wants to discuss Iran, kicking and banning in a publicly visible manner would be prudent. That is truly not a good place to talk about that subject.

I sure as hell would not want to discuss bringing Bitcoin to Iran in any place where my discussion was being logged and published.

I'm disappointed. I shall not purchase US government physical bitcoins anymore!

Which part do you find disappointing? Suppose we were dumb instead of smart and took the opposite stance and made a point of parading Bitcoin to Iran. You would be so happy you might be willing to purchase physical bitcoins, except they'd probably be as hard to find and as expensive as Liberty Dollars as I'd be less likely to be around to continue to produce them. Bitcoin and the blockchain might be bulletproof but community members, developers, and those facilitating exchange are not. If I were jgarzik I would view someone wanting to discuss Iran with me in #bitcoin-dev as a threat to my personal safety.

If you (everybody) want to work toward bring Bitcoin to Iran while throwing middle fingers to governments, clearly you understand no one can stop you, do what you must I guess. But, use your heads and do not publicly involve those individuals who are publicly involved with bitcoin under their real life identity. I am disappointed that this isn't so obvious that it even has to be asked!

+1

casascius

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The Casascius 1oz 10BTC Silver Round (w/ Gold B)

Quote from: becoin on November 30, 2012, 09:58:51 AM

Quote from: casascius on November 30, 2012, 09:24:47 AM

I am going to have to agree with jgarzik here.

We as a community are asking for swift trouble from US govt bullies if we are actively marketing Bitcoin to Iran. It has nothing to do with whether it's legal, moral, ethical or not. We are lucky they have left this project alone thus far. Doing anything that looks like marketing to Iran will change that quickly.

Also, bitcoin-dev is a publicly logged channel. If I am a Bitcoin developer on a publicly logged chat channel where my actions could be scrutinized by the media and the world and someone wants to discuss Iran, kicking and banning in a publicly visible manner would be prudent. That is truly not a good place to talk about that subject.

I sure as hell would not want to discuss bringing Bitcoin to Iran in any place where my discussion was being logged and published.

I'm disappointed. I shall not purchase US government physical bitcoins anymore!

Which part do you find disappointing? Suppose we were dumb instead of smart and took the opposite stance and made a point of parading Bitcoin to Iran. You would be so happy you might be willing to purchase physical bitcoins, except they'd probably be as hard to find and as expensive as Liberty Dollars as I'd be less likely to be around to continue to produce them. Bitcoin and the blockchain might be bulletproof but community members, developers, and those facilitating exchange are not. If I were jgarzik I would view someone wanting to discuss Iran with me in #bitcoin-dev as a threat to my personal safety.

If you (everybody) want to work toward bring Bitcoin to Iran while throwing middle fingers to governments, clearly you understand no one can stop you, do what you must I guess. But, use your heads and do not publicly involve those individuals who are publicly involved with bitcoin under their real life identity. I am disappointed that this isn't so obvious that it even has to be asked!

Phinnaeus Gage

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Bitcoin: An Idea Worth Spending

Quote from: greyhawk on November 30, 2012, 09:23:43 AM

Quote from: Herodes on November 30, 2012, 09:19:13 AM

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on November 30, 2012, 08:54:28 AM

Quote from: Herodes on November 30, 2012, 08:46:48 AM

Quote from: Boussac on November 30, 2012, 08:42:33 AM

Timing is everything.

+1 for wisdom

-1 for cowardice

Let me use an analogy.

If you start doing mma, will you gradually go the ranks, and then when you're ready, challenge the best fighter, or will you as a newbie challenge the world champ immediately ?

It depends on if your name is Bob Sapp. Grin

I was going to name some other, but held my pen till I read your post: http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=116634

The last time I was banned here was due to posting off-topic, of which I probably was guilty, for my postings were getting somewhat out of hand. My last post, though its first part was off-topic (like in this post), the rest of the post was on-topic, but vague in nature, akin to if I only added a single sentence following the first sentence of this post.

That said, I hope this episode gets resolved in a satisfied matter. For the record, I'm leaning on the side of Jeremias, and not for the reasons of I-can-relate or feel sorry for him. Also, currently I have no ills toward jgarzik.

~Bruno K~

greyhawk

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Quote from: becoin on November 30, 2012, 09:34:31 AM

Quote from: greyhawk on November 30, 2012, 07:58:29 AM

Stopping the issuer stopped the currency.

How would you stop the Bitcoin issuer?

You don't. The examples illustrated that those former currencies were not illegal, but the behaviour of the issuer was illegal, thus killing the currency. With bitcoin illegal behaviour of certain issuers is irrelevant.

Gabi

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Quote from: greyhawk on November 30, 2012, 07:16:27 AM

jgarzik is quite right. The SHA-256 algorithm is property of the US and export regulations for SHA-256 expressively forbid exporting the algorithm or products based on the algorithm to Iran.

Lololol. So US will invade europe if we europeans give bitcoin to iran? Cheesy

I have a awesome idea: stop hosting services in US.

Seriously, iran people are humans, it's not like they are aliens or zombies

BkkCoins

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Quote from: RodeoX on November 30, 2012, 09:57:23 AM

Quote from: greyhawk on November 30, 2012, 07:16:27 AM

jgarzik is quite right. The SHA-256 algorithm is property of the US and export regulations for SHA-256 expressively forbid exporting the algorithm or products based on the algorithm to Iran.

Why are people ignoring this fact. It is illegal. And I think other restrictions on Iran would also apply. As a U.S. citizen I'm almost certain that it would be a crime for me to send BTC to Iran. To give an example of how far Iran has to go to avoid any U.S. dollars, look at how they sell oil.
First they ship the oil for sale to Turkey. They cannot be paid in dollars so they take Turkish Lira. Then they go shopping for gold bars in Istanbul. The gold is then brought in small amounts to Dubai by couriers. From there the gold can be used to buy things Iran needs.

There is no such thing as sending BTC to Iran. People in Iran may not even "have" any BTC in Iran. The only place they exist is as data in a blockchain database on computers everywhere. So, in fact, if a single node in Iran is running then all our BTC are already in Iran just as much as any user from Iran. And who are these users when there is no link between an address and a user.

Given it's illegal to send crypto software to Iran I think susceptible people shouldn't do that. If they want to use it in Iran they'll have to figure out their own way to get it. Or use an eWallet service. Whatever.

Quote from: Technomage on November 30, 2012, 10:11:22 AM

Read this article. I think it's relevant in this context.

http://www.dgcmagazine.com/the-old-radical-how-bitcoin-is-being-destroyed/

Yes.

Technomage

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Read this article. I think it's relevant in this context.

http://www.dgcmagazine.com/the-old-radical-how-bitcoin-is-being-destroyed/

Come-from-Beyond

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I don't understand u, guys. Bitcoin lets us to do a lot of things to make the world better. Why the hell should we ask the state? Why do we need to care about their opinion? Forget about their rules and use our own ones.

Sorry, but I can't resist the temptation to repeat it:

FUCK. THE. STATE.

SysRun

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We're not in fight club, this is a long drawn out chess match.

I'm with jgarzik. You don't win at chess by taunting your opponent. Is our main concern not the long term survival of bitcoin? I think we all have that in common.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wB5r6HeOA-8

Technomage

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Quote from: paulie_w on November 30, 2012, 09:57:45 AM

i too find lawful censorship arguments about bitcoin unworthy of much serious discussion, but maybe there is something to it. perhaps jgarzik knows about flaws in bitcoin that make it extremely vulnerable right now. it would be helpful to know his views above, and about this.

I agree with this. He is in the core dev team and knows a lot about the protocol, if he thinks we're vulnerable right now I'm going to listen. This is not the first time we've had this type of debate so I believe he will explain himself at some point. I'm interested in that explanation.

paulie_w

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Quote from: RodeoX on November 30, 2012, 09:57:23 AM

Quote from: greyhawk on November 30, 2012, 07:16:27 AM

jgarzik is quite right. The SHA-256 algorithm is property of the US and export regulations for SHA-256 expressively forbid exporting the algorithm or products based on the algorithm to Iran.

Why are people ignoring this fact. It is illegal. And I think other restrictions on Iran would also apply. As a U.S. citizen I'm almost certain that it would be a crime for me to send BTC to Iran. To give an example of how far Iran has to go to avoid any U.S. dollars, look at how they sell oil.
First they ship the oil for sale to Turkey. They cannot be paid in dollars so they take Turkish Lira. Then they go shopping for gold bars in Istanbul. The gold is then brought in small amounts to Dubai by couriers. From there the gold can be used to buy things Iran needs.

do you find that to be a sensible law, or practice? and if not, do you find it sensible to submit to submit to nonsensical laws?

becoin

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Quote from: casascius on November 30, 2012, 09:24:47 AM

I am going to have to agree with jgarzik here.

We as a community are asking for swift trouble from US govt bullies if we are actively marketing Bitcoin to Iran. It has nothing to do with whether it's legal, moral, ethical or not. We are lucky they have left this project alone thus far. Doing anything that looks like marketing to Iran will change that quickly.

Also, bitcoin-dev is a publicly logged channel. If I am a Bitcoin developer on a publicly logged chat channel where my actions could be scrutinized by the media and the world and someone wants to discuss Iran, kicking and banning in a publicly visible manner would be prudent. That is truly not a good place to talk about that subject.

I sure as hell would not want to discuss bringing Bitcoin to Iran in any place where my discussion was being logged and published.

I'm disappointed. I shall not purchase US government physical bitcoins anymore!

paulie_w

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i think a worthy couple of questions to ask of the bitcoin foundation members is:

_exactly_ what kind of world view do they have? what do they truly see as bitcoin's place in the world, and what kind of entanglements are they willing to get themselves into in order to bring that about?

i too find lawful censorship arguments about bitcoin unworthy of much serious discussion, but maybe there is something to it. perhaps jgarzik knows about flaws in bitcoin that make it extremely vulnerable right now. it would be helpful to know his views above, and about this.

RodeoX

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Quote from: greyhawk on November 30, 2012, 07:16:27 AM

jgarzik is quite right. The SHA-256 algorithm is property of the US and export regulations for SHA-256 expressively forbid exporting the algorithm or products based on the algorithm to Iran.

Why are people ignoring this fact. It is illegal. And I think other restrictions on Iran would also apply. As a U.S. citizen I'm almost certain that it would be a crime for me to send BTC to Iran. To give an example of how far Iran has to go to avoid any U.S. dollars, look at how they sell oil.
First they ship the oil for sale to Turkey. They cannot be paid in dollars so they take Turkish Lira. Then they go shopping for gold bars in Istanbul. The gold is then brought in small amounts to Dubai by couriers. From there the gold can be used to buy things Iran needs.

paulie_w

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Quote from: BkkCoins on November 30, 2012, 09:33:32 AM

Who's marketing to Iran? Who received any money for selling anything to Iran?
Creating a translation to Farsi has nothing to do with marketing to Iran. There must be plenty of people around the world who speak Farsi outside Iran.

I for one do not abide by the fascism that the USA mafia-state reeks of these days.

yes, this is all ridiculous hysteria. let the people of iran market bitcoin, but there's no sensible reason to deny them the whole platform.

Topic: jgarzik goes berzerk in #bitcoin-dev, wtf? - page 16. (Read 29034 times)